Video Hummus Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 I didn’t give feedback but it sounds like they are asking all the right questions. So glad they are actually polling before they design something. Good on JVC. I think they should try and innovate the small cinema camera market. Clearly there is a segment—see for example the success of the P4K and the form factor of the S1H. Smallish with internal NDs and great color science and image tonality. As much useable DR as possible within budget. I think big production houses have their minds made up with what they are using. It’s the ARRI ecosystem and Canon Cxxx for all the rest. A few REDs sprinkled about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 1 hour ago, BrooklynDan said: I chimed in and left my two cents. Full frame, anamorphic support, SDI, color science, etc, etc. I also insisted that the camera have a shoulder-mounted form factor. I simply do not understand why people have their arms wrapped around the mirrorless style even for dedicated cinema cameras. We have 100+ years of cinema camera design behind us, and none of them looked like a stills camera. In case you forgot what a real cinema camera looks like: The only problem I have with full frame anamorphic support is there are no lenses that anyone buying a $4k cinema camera would purchase. You're looking at a minimum of $3k per lens... even for garbage SLR Magic full frame primes. To think the whole set can be had for what they use to ask for a single lens? ... and still I wouldn't buy them. Honestly, I wouldn't even take them for free. So anamorphic wise what does that leave?... your best current option is perhaps ther Orion optics lenses... so $24k for a set. Those aren't an option for operators that spend $4k for a body. And don't even think about zooms... they start at $65k... and that lens doesn't even cover full frame. And AF with an anamorphic? Sorry nothing exist. If anyone makes a cinema camera with built in Anamorphic zoom, reasonably fast, a nice image, minimum of 10 bit, a editable codec, 14-16 stops dynamic range, clean iso to 6400 and good AF... with a rotating screen... that can use affordable media... Well, they will sell like hotcakes. And don't tell me they can't make a decent quality anamorphic zoom with AF with clutchable manual option for reasonable money. Anamorphics have been around from the 1920's... It can be done. And mark my words... the first cinema camera that includes this feature in a practical way will be a big hit. I'm astounded that no one has done it yet. Anamorphic is synonymous with cinema. Alt Shoo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 I'd love a camera that can easily be mounted on the shoulder. The issue is it makes mounting on a gimbal a no go, at least affordable ones. IronFilm and HockeyFan12 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightsFan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 13 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said: Something like an XT3 with RAW output, prores, SDI's, and internal ND's would be a winner in my book. Yeah, basically XT3 image quality and recording formats inside a GY-LS300 body would be ideal. Adding ProRes in addition to HEVC would make it very flexible and scalable. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynDan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 5 hours ago, DBounce said: The only problem I have with full frame anamorphic support is there are no lenses that anyone buying a $4k cinema camera would purchase. You're looking at a minimum of $3k per lens... even for garbage SLR Magic full frame primes. To think the whole set can be had for what they use to ask for a single lens? ... and still I wouldn't buy them. Honestly, I wouldn't even take them for free. So anamorphic wise what does that leave?... your best current option is perhaps ther Orion optics lenses... so $24k for a set. Those aren't an option for operators that spend $4k for a body. And don't even think about zooms... they start at $65k... and that lens doesn't even cover full frame. And AF with an anamorphic? Sorry nothing exist. If anyone makes a cinema camera with built in Anamorphic zoom, reasonably fast, a nice image, minimum of 10 bit, a editable codec, 14-16 stops dynamic range, clean iso to 6400 and good AF... with a rotating screen... that can use affordable media... Well, they will sell like hotcakes. And don't tell me they can't make a decent quality anamorphic zoom with AF with clutchable manual option for reasonable money. Anamorphics have been around from the 1920's... It can be done. And mark my words... the first cinema camera that includes this feature in a practical way will be a big hit. I'm astounded that no one has done it yet. Anamorphic is synonymous with cinema. You can rent glass, you know? I know places where you can get a set of Lomos for $500 for the weekend. For a specific project, it can be doable. Also adaptors. The new Aivascope is looking scrumptous. Anamorphic and auto focus in the same sentence is decades away. It's hard to put into words how hard it is to grind bent glass, but that's the reason it's so expensive. Also, auto focus and cinema do not belong in the same sentence. No serious film crew uses auto focus. It's an amateur tool that works ok for documentaries. But if you're shooting actors and needs graceful, predictable transitions, turn the damn focus ring. Makes no sense to demand manual control of every other parameter, but then leave your sharpness to a dumb computer. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Yeah auto focus is still not practical for bigger productions imho. Most people using super expensive equipment are renting not buying, but $500 for a weekend is still pricey when you might be used to owning a piece of glass for $500. webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, BrooklynDan said: You can rent glass, you know? I know places where you can get a set of Lomos for $500 for the weekend. For a specific project, it can be doable. Also adaptors. The new Aivascope is looking scrumptous. Anamorphic and auto focus in the same sentence is decades away. It's hard to put into words how hard it is to grind bent glass, but that's the reason it's so expensive. Also, auto focus and cinema do not belong in the same sentence. No serious film crew uses auto focus. It's an amateur tool that works ok for documentaries. But if you're shooting actors and needs graceful, predictable transitions, turn the damn focus ring. Makes no sense to demand manual control of every other parameter, but then leave your sharpness to a dumb computer. Well, using your logic it follows that since you can also rent Red and Arri cameras, there is zero need to price anything affordably enough for an enthusiast to own. After all, everything can be rented. Move along, nothing to see. But where I come from, sometimes people like to own things. And as $4k is more a prosumer / enthusiast market. I believe many enthusiast would like to shoot with a modern anamorphic cinema camera. If this was not the case Moment would not have made an anamorphic adapter for smartphones. And for the record... should someone produce a camera such as this, within a price that enthusiast would consider, it does not prevent you from still renting a Red or Arri with a set of Anamorphic primes for your next major Hollywood feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 I wonder why a company hasn't come about with cheap anamorhpic glass, like one of those Chinese companies. Seems like it must actually be challenging to make it in comparison with regular glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynDan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Just now, DBounce said: Well, using your logic it follows that since you can also rent Red and Arri cameras, there is zero need to price anything affordably enough for an enthusiast to own. After all, everything can be rented. Move along, nothing to see. But where I come from, sometimes people like to own things. And as $4k is more a prosumer / enthusiast market. I believe many enthusiast would like to shoot with a modern anamorphic cinema camera. If this was not the case Moment would not have made an anamorphic adapter for smartphones. I'm specifically talking about anamorphic lenses. They are a special category and are exceedingly difficult to make with any quality under a certain price point. For $3k and change you can have a feature quality piece of glass, like a Compact prime, or a badly distorted SLR magic prime or some frankenlens that only works with one focal length. P+s Technik changes you $15k for replica Kowas that breath and distort almost as much as the real thing. The laws of physics are a bitch. Regardless, where there is a will, there is a way. So you might as provide an Academy-spec sensor area at the minimum (full frame obviously encompasses this), and desqueeze options for common ratios, as well as frame lines. 4 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: I wonder why a company hasn't come about with cheap anamorhpic glass, like one of those Chinese companies. Seems like it must actually be challenging to make it in comparison with regular glass. Vazen is dropping a 40mm 1.8x prime for MFT mount for $3K. If it was Super 35, PL mount and 2x squeeze, it might be three times as expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heart0less Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 It's kinda sad.. In the first question I answered that: no, I do not create video content for a living, nor do I plan to. And - voila, I was thanked for taking the survey. ? IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, BrooklynDan said: Vazen is dropping a 40mm 1.8x prime for MFT mount for $3K. If it was Super 35, PL mount and 2x squeeze, it might be three times as expensive. Vazen are also making a set with full frame coverage. But it will be PL only. Because there are no PL anamorphic options? Though they did not list a price. I understand it's hard. But if Moment can make lens adapters that fit on an iPhone... and the size of the iPhone lens + adapter is smaller than a pancake lens... then I think a reasonable quality zoom lens could be created that didn't cost as much as a Range Rover Sport. Or even as much as the $3000 Vazen. And I believe it could all be done while turning a profit. Leica makes great cameras. But you could probably get similar results with a much more affordable cameras. Maybe even better. Leica is a luxury item. So the price is understandable. But are All anamorphic lenses luxury items? They certainly price them like they are. Even the shitty, crap quality ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heart0less Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 One can always go with the cheapo anamorphico DIY style. At ~2000$ you get quite a nice setup, which may be attached to your favorite spherical lenses. eg. https://vimeo.com/277302126 https://vimeo.com/284703208 https://youtu.be/LAM_7oU95MA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr5nIwRBMbM https://vimeo.com/217946022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, heart0less said: One can always go with the cheapo anamorphico DIY style. At ~2000$ you get quite a nice setup, which may be attached to your favorite spherical lenses. eg. https://vimeo.com/277302126 https://vimeo.com/284703208 https://youtu.be/LAM_7oU95MA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr5nIwRBMbM https://vimeo.com/217946022 One can always buy a used GH2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heart0less Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Let me just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvNkFE7rK64QjdCKV-M85rVvRwYylFQ6A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 There is a whole subforum for anamorphic, you can take the conversation there. I do not believe anamorphic is a big deal for most people, it can be helpful for some but these type of cameras are bread bringers, mostly just tools. LS300 sold quite well here for weddings, in schools/institutions and the such. It was an advanced camcorder with some great innovation thrown in. @KnightsFan I found the body not convinient for anything really. XC15 or C100mkII are my favorite. Imagine an XC15 body and grip with almost any small prime in front and the variable zoom prime function. Masterpiece! HockeyFan12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightsFan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 @Kisaha I'd like to see a shorter body for sure. But 99% of my shots are on a tripod or glidecam, so the handheld-friendly grip and form factor of a C100/XC15 is not that important to me. If it has a handgrip, I'd like it to be removable. AFAIK the XC15 grip is fixed, and has the battery inside? I haven't actually used one. A big heavy grip to one side makes it that much more difficult to balance on a glidecam. I did like the ability to strip down the C100 somewhat, though it was still a little top heavy in my opinion. A lower center of gravity is easier for balance. And thought I haven't used a C100 much, and perhaps there is a way to customize the buttons, one thing I hated was that I had to press the ISO button and THEN use the wheel to change the value. I like DSLR style dedicated wheels for each function, so that you can change ISO or shutter speed in one press instead of two. I'm not big into anamorphic either, but it is nice to have different aspect ratios in general. It's always nice to frame and record in the native project format. I've been requested to frame for 4:3, and even 1:1 (for social media). Kisaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted June 15, 2019 Administrators Share Posted June 15, 2019 I filled it out and told them basically.... - ProRes - Internal ND - Simple ergonomics, not JVC/Sony camcorder nightmare buttons everywhere and shit menus - Canon EF mount, with good AF if possible - Super 35mm or Full frame Alt Shoo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papiskokuji Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said: I filled it out and told them basically.... - ProRes - Internal ND - Simple ergonomics, not JVC/Sony camcorder nightmare buttons everywhere and shit menus - Canon EF mount, with good AF if possible - Super 35mm or Full frame I told exactly the same and added great dynamic range and log profile with LUT display and good monitor for focus ! Form factor : either FS5 (for compactness) or FS7 (to go easily on the shoulder). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted June 15, 2019 Administrators Share Posted June 15, 2019 I would prefer mirrorless form factor like GH5, NX1 or S1H! Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 Survey fulfilled. So, seems a new JVC C4K camera with slow motion capability (4K 60fps? 120fps?) with EF mount under USD 4,000 is coming... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.