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mercer

Why is Canon SO Frustrating?!

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As most already know, I love Canon cameras. Every one I’ve ever owned is a joy to shoot with. The ergonomics, the menus, the color science, and most importantly... Magic Lantern.

But even as a fan of their products, I can recognize the arbitrary, non sensical way in which they add or delete features from their cameras. I understand product segmentation, but their recent elimination of 24p 1080p with the EOS-RP and SL3 has left me bewildered and shaking my head. 

With that being said, I have been on the lookout for a compact ILC for photography. Since I have a small collection of EF lenses and manual primes either adapted, or converted to EF, I decided to have a look at the SL3...

Well...

While looking at the specs on B&H, I found an odd feature that led me to further investigate if it was just a misprint by B&H or if it’s actually true...

Well...

Apparently it’s mostly true... the SL3 is the cheapest camera to offer a clean 10bit 4:22 HDMI output at UHD 4K?!?!

https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/rebel-sl3/downloads/canon-eos-rebel-sl3-specifications-chart.pdf

So it seems Canon arbitrarily picks and chooses swaths, or blocks, of features from their existing software.

As much as I enjoy Canon cameras, and as much as I understand product segmentation and technological deficiencies from being the only camera manufacturer, obviously other than Sony, that produces their own sensors for their own cameras, I am at a loss to understand how, or why, a $500 camera doesn’t have 24p 1080p but does have 4K 4:22 10bit output.

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

To add... although humorously frustrating, this feature is actually a pretty amazing f#%k up by Canon. EOS-R shooters can utilize the 4K crop, of the SL3, to turn a general EF zoom lens as a long zoom or their cheap nifty fifty as a fast telephoto prime. I can see wedding shooters, setting up an SL3 on a tripod in the back of the church with a Ninja V and getting some beautiful ProRes close ups of the bride and groom.

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Are you sure it's 10-bit? People online are saying 8-bit 4:2:2.
That would be the same as the M50, but with clean hdmi added.
Indeed strange about the 24p 1080p. At least the M50 still has that in NTSC (in PAL already removed).

Somehow with SL3/250D PAL has 24p completely removed and only 25p in 4k and 1080p.
Guess the chipset can only handle 25fps 4k max? But why remove the 1080p modes?

Maybe Magic Lantern to the rescue some day...

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Because Canon knows that there will always be a huge segment of the market that'll buy whatever they put out, because they're invested in Canon lenses, etc. or have bought into the Canon PR machine. It's why I get frustrated when my Canon friends constantly complain about this stuff but put up with it. 

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Yes I've had enough of Canon and their shitty ways, am in the midst of selling all my Canon gear and have just got a Fuji XT3 - amazing camera for the price and looking forward to investing in a company who actually seem interested in giving people what they want. 

It feels great being free of all the frustrations being tied into the Canon system gives you. 

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Canon are shit because they keep asking focus groups, and all of the people say "what is 4K" or "I edit on an iPhone" and "we don't need it".

But marketing decide 4K is a box to be ticked, so it goes on when the cheap (and old) hardware isn't quite good enough for it, especially Canon's sensors which aren't using latest manufacturing methods.

And Canon are a money making machine with no incentive to risk undermining a more expensive camera by making a good value for money one, at least when it comes to video because Canon knows video pros spend a fucking fortune.

Canon are also a bit of a dinosaur, with senior Japanese management in their 70's and 80's who don't understand the modern tech world very well.

----

As for the HDMI output my guess is the HDR TV output is 10bit to support HDR displays... Whether the video output actually IS 10bit or in what HDMI mode you get HDR, I don't know. That page mentions "HDMI HDR output" and BT 2020 but for all we know it might be playback only.

---

Ah next page:

HDMI HDR Output

Off / On
An HDR display icon is shown when the camera is connected via HDMI to an HDR TV or monitor. HDR TV or monitor.
Still photo: Supports RAW, C-RAW, and JPEG in single-image display.

• Display is delayed by approx. 1 sec. for RAW and C-RAW images, which are processed. • Not supported during movie playback

So the HDR 10bit HDMI is just for stills in playback mode... the HDMI output shows them in HDR mode on compatible TVs.

39 minutes ago, ade towell said:

Yes I've had enough of Canon and their shitty ways, am in the midst of selling all my Canon gear and have just got a Fuji XT3 - amazing camera for the price and looking forward to investing in a company who actually seem interested in giving people what they want. 

It feels great being free of all the frustrations being tied into the Canon system gives you. 

Good move.

I do at least rate Canon's lenses. I've been comfortable using Canon lenses on Fuji, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and even Nikon bodies for a while now and only look back to Canon bodies when I want to shoot only stills, or see what Magic Lantern have done. My 1D C and 1DS Mark III are the best stills cameras I own when I need perfect AF via my EF lenses and long battery life.

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I have had a few Canon cameras and never really thought they were any better than others and  think that in many ways are not as good.    I am still using an ancient Canon DSLR but out of necessity more than anything and I do have a Canon superzoom point and shoot I love (only HD, not even full HD) but it cost me very little (I also still have a Canon FD film camera).

Canon lenses on the other had I DO love in many cases but particularly some of the L lenses and both EF and FD.    Very adaptable to other systems and some are still fairly unique (my all time favourite is still the 17mm F4 L TS-E).    Some of the other makers have caught up (at least) for lenses in many instances (the Sony Zeiss 55 1.8 and FE 85 1.8 for example) but I can not adapt THOSE to Canon or others yet.   The little 40 2.8 STM is also a cheap lens that surprises (and not an L).    My Sigma 150 2.8 macro in EF mount is also very adaptable.

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6 hours ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Are you sure it's 10-bit? People online are saying 8-bit 4:2:2.

I don’t own the camera, so I can’t say for sure, I’m basing this info from the Canon website spec page...

BBAAAB31-AA18-461C-9B45-AF8206A5EABF.jpeg

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1 hour ago, kaylee said:

@mercer when i saw the specs for the new rebel i shook my head...

...amazing! and it has a flippy screen. full flippy

i was gonna start a thread but i was like, *shrug* everyones used to this by now... 

If people got used to things they didn't like and stopped talking about them, newspapers and magazines would be 10% the size they are now!

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9 hours ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Are you sure it's 10-bit? People online are saying 8-bit 4:2:2.
That would be the same as the M50, but with clean hdmi added.
Indeed strange about the 24p 1080p. At least the M50 still has that in NTSC (in PAL already removed).

Somehow with SL3/250D PAL has 24p completely removed and only 25p in 4k and 1080p.
Guess the chipset can only handle 25fps 4k max? But why remove the 1080p modes?

Maybe Magic Lantern to the rescue some day...

Doubt it. It is likely fixed in hardware.

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3 hours ago, kye said:

If people got used to things they didn't like and stopped talking about them, newspapers and magazines would be 10% the size they are now!

Well, they ARE ten percent the size of what they were not so long ago!   Just sayin'.

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10 hours ago, ade towell said:

Yes I've had enough of Canon and their shitty ways, am in the midst of selling all my Canon gear and have just got a Fuji XT3 - amazing camera for the price and looking forward to investing in a company who actually seem interested in giving people what they want. 

It feels great being free of all the frustrations being tied into the Canon system gives you. 

did that. xt3 is such a great camera, and for very resonable price.

maybe you want to keep some canon lenses that are pretty good in general. but fuji lenses are great too, just canon lenses have adaptaters to all brands so if you change in the future you can keep canon lenses when it might be difficult to keep the fuji

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I switched from Canon in 2016.

However your argument is legit just a product of what happens when your favorite company can release a product and no matter how good (1DXmkii) or bad it is (6Dmkii/EOSRP) they will sell and boatload of them. Exact same thing with Apple and Apple Products.

Why pay more for product R&D when the majority of the user base is totally fine with current spec listing. Its really only the YouTubers and a handful of prosumers that are fed up with canon. 

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1 hour ago, Mako Sports said:

 Its really only the YouTubers and a handful of prosumers that are fed up with canon. 

I think it has to be more people than that to have their DSLR sales drop 50%. I doubt all those people ran out and bought a M50 or better Canon Mirrorless camera. I think Sony, Fuji hurt them as much as any, and a few Nikon fans. Canon shit around too long on the FF Mirrorless front, and then even came out with a half assed product. Stupid top management. As long as Sony is holding out on the new a7s mk III it might cost a lot, but it will probably be some amazing new camera that Really puts the others behind. Sony is not just going away like Samsung did. They have all the right cards now, why fold. But I will admit the a7s mk III delay is pretty crazy.

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15 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I think it has to be more people than that to have their DSLR sales drop 50%. I doubt all those people ran out and bought a M50 or better Canon Mirrorless camera. I think Sony, Fuji hurt them as much as any, and a few Nikon fans. Canon shit around too long on the FF Mirrorless front, and then even came out with a half assed product. Stupid top management. 

Its not the higher end stuff like 5D line and the new RF line that bring in the serious cash.

Its the low end consumer cameras like the t5 (1200d), t6 (1300d), and 4000d that keep canon at the no.1 spot.

Which that $300 - $500 price point/market is drastically dying out to smartphones with great cameras like the IPhone 10 and Pixel 3. 

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