C-Log: When to use it and which camera? EOS R vs c100 mkii

[BrunoLandMedia]

Hello, 

I asked this question in another topic (about EOS R Raw) and I appreciate the responses there but someone suggested I make this it's own topic. 
FYI: I have both the EOS R & The c100 Mark ii already. 

1. WHEN TO USE IT: Should I be using c-log for live concerts and weddings?
I just started using C-log and working on grading. I'm wondering if anyone shoots live concerts and/or weddings and decides to use C-log vs Wide DR (on the c100) or the "flattest" profile on the R.  I need to get a 3rd camera (next question) for matching purposes. Does anyone have advice for how/when to shoot C-log and if the R and c100ii match well using either option. 

2. Besides the R and c100, I have a 6d2 at my disposal for a "fourth/C" camera, but I need a third camera to go with these 2. Which one would you choose with these factors below. 
- I'm not changing systems, I want to match these cameras as close as possible.
- I'm not doing 4k for these clients.
- I need it basically now so waiting for R+ etc, or c100 mk iii is not an option. 
- Budget is around $2,000, and the c100ii is popping up around that price a lot recently, although I could stretch to $2,200 if needed, and the R is down around $1700 on ebay.
- I'm a solo shooter and really need 3 main cameras to match quickly for clients and have my 6d2 and gopro as 5% total of shots just for some close ups and Drummer shots (at the live concerts)
- Audio will always be separate multi track so scratch is fine from camera. 

EOS R is cheaper, has the touch screen for face tracking (especially on camera I'm not operating) is cheaper, and more modern. the c100ii has a great image, no time limit, dual slots.

I just don't know enough about clog to know if the R can match the quality of the c100ii (or better it) so that all I'll have to worry about is restarting one every 30 min if I go with it. 

If anyone has any experience with this combo it would be helpful. 

Thanks for any advice!

Cheers, Chris

[DBounce]

26 minutes ago, BrunoLandMedia said:

Hello, 

I asked this question in another topic (about EOS R Raw) and I appreciate the responses there but someone suggested I make this it's own topic. 
FYI: I have both the EOS R & The c100 Mark ii already. 

1. WHEN TO USE IT: Should I be using c-log for live concerts and weddings?
I just started using C-log and working on grading. I'm wondering if anyone shoots live concerts and/or weddings and decides to use C-log vs Wide DR (on the c100) or the "flattest" profile on the R.  I need to get a 3rd camera (next question) for matching purposes. Does anyone have advice for how/when to shoot C-log and if the R and c100ii match well using either option. 

2. Besides the R and c100, I have a 6d2 at my disposal for a "fourth/C" camera, but I need a third camera to go with these 2. Which one would you choose with these factors below. 
- I'm not changing systems, I want to match these cameras as close as possible.
- I'm not doing 4k for these clients.
- I need it basically now so waiting for R+ etc, or c100 mk iii is not an option. 
- Budget is around $2,000, and the c100ii is popping up around that price a lot recently, although I could stretch to $2,200 if needed, and the R is down around $1700 on ebay.
- I'm a solo shooter and really need 3 main cameras to match quickly for clients and have my 6d2 and gopro as 5% total of shots just for some close ups and Drummer shots (at the live concerts)
- Audio will always be separate multi track so scratch is fine from camera. 

EOS R is cheaper, has the touch screen for face tracking (especially on camera I'm not operating) is cheaper, and more modern. the c100ii has a great image, no time limit, dual slots.

I just don't know enough about clog to know if the R can match the quality of the c100ii (or better it) so that all I'll have to worry about is restarting one every 30 min if I go with it. 

If anyone has any experience with this combo it would be helpful. 

Thanks for any advice!

Cheers, Chris

If you plan on only shooting video the c100ii seems a better choice, since 4k is not a concern. 

When it comes to matching in post,  just make sure all cameras are black balanced, matching color temperatures, and same picture profiles. If you plan to CG in post shoot in CLog. Try to shoot as near to the base ISO as possible to avoid noise. You should be golden.

[Django]

+1 on tips above.

EOS R actually has a much more robust codec than the dated one in C100 and therefore grades Clog much better. 

I advise recording externally on C100 if shooting CLog.

Also important to set CLog on EOS R to “classic EOS cinema” color matrix setting for best match up with your C100mk2.

As for Clog vs WideDR it depends on your level of CG. If you’re not sure what you’re doing maybe best to avoid Clog! Especially in controlled environments. This goes for all cams, log can often create more post headaches than necessary..

 

[kye]

+2 on both of the above.

What I would add is to do some test setups and go through the full workflow with each of the cameras and see it for yourself.  Try it with a high DR scene as well as with a low DR scene as there might be differences.  It will take a bit of effort to setup a test scene, setup and shoot with all cameras then media management and editing etc, but you'll get answers to your questions (about your existing equipment at least) and also find any unexpected issues you didn't anticipate.

I know that people who shoot weddings and events often want to do as little grading as possible (to speed up the workflow) and some have success dialling in the look they want in-camera, which may also be attractive for your workflow, but of course, this means having to dial it in across all your different bodies, so that would be considerably more work up front.

It may not suit your situation, but there are also a number of good camcorders that can do C-Log, such as the XC10/XC15.  Because of their fixed lens they don't make the most flexible A cameras, but as a B or C camera they may be very useful, and I have found my XC10 to be a very reliable workhorse.  Being a dedicated video-only camera also means their image processing and cooling is great too.

[BenEricson]

XC10 or XC15 is great if you're shooting outdoors and need a compact camera. 

I would shoot C-log or Wide DR. If you're shooting over 1250/1600 ISO, I would just shoot a baked in profile, avoid log. 

[BrunoLandMedia]

Thanks for the few replies. I haven't made a decision yet on what to get, but now I'm leaning towards another R. Randomly though, I picked up a C100 (first gen, no DPAF) for $500 from a huge sale. I literally could not turn it down for what was a $6,000 camera. I owned a mk i before but upgraded to the mkii because I also got a great deal on it and a sigma 18-35 1.8.

This will not replace my need for a R or c100mkii for the immediate future. But I plan on using the c100 to replace my GoPro as my "drum cam". It will crush the go pro and I can creatively use that somewhere else at a live show if needed. BUT, I now have 2 more quick questions. 

1a. Does anyone think the DPAF upgrade is worth it on this old boy for essentially the same price as I got the camera? My non-DPAF plan was to widen to F/4 or so to get the drummer one shot AF on his face (or snare drum depending) and call it a day, since the drummers face wouldn't be center frame anyway and would need constant tracking. 

1b. Is there a way to do the upgrade yourself or by 3rd party? after all these years it seems it might be something you could get done cheaper than spending $500, if canon even does that upgrade anymore. I'd be fine doing it for $200 or so, but not $500 I don't think.

2. I know there is a difference in the mki and mkii image wise, but does anyone have a trick for exposure and WB so that the cameras match the closest without having to CG much. For example i KNOW that in the same room, my R needs to be about 200 cooler on the K scale than my mkii. I remember reading somewhere the mki was about 400 cooler. So if I set mkii to 5000, R is about 4800, and c100 mki would be 4600??? something like that?

Thanks again for any thoughts! Cheers, Chris

[webrunner5]

Well I am not sure but I think there is a whole new sensor in the C100 mk II compared to the original. CS is Way different. Won't be easy matching it. First one is a Lot grittier looking, Pastel looking to the new one. The mk II is more true to reality, but I still like the look of the old one better. Kind of a original Sony a7s look.

As to the AF update, well you probably could get your money back if you sell it even paying the 500 Bucks. Doubt anyone else does it but Canon. Canon seems to still have the web site up yet for the Sensor swap. But then nothing seems to ever be taken down on the web lol. But you would think Canon would if not available yet.

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/product-showcases/cameras-and-lenses/cinema-eos-c100

 

 

[User]

As I understand things, WDR retains just as much DR as CLog. It's what I've always used on the C100MkII.

[ade towell]

what's the DR on the EOS-r like, I've not seen any measurements for it? Is it better than c100 with original c-log, does its other flavours of log push it beyond that? Presume you would need an external recorder to make use of 10 bit but has anyone tested it? Sorry lots of questions...

[webrunner5]

Looks to be the same as a Panasonic GH5s. So OK, but not great.

https://***URL not allowed***/canon-eos-r-review-shooting-a-mini-documentary-in-india/

[ade towell]

Ah thanks for that, quite disappointing for such a new 'full frame' camera.

They measured Panasonic S1 as having 12.2 stops to the eos-r 10.7 and that gap could grow even bigger when full v-log comes to the s1

[driver]

I've googled but there is really no custom picture profiles for EOS R, is that possible? I plan to buy the camera and I was expecting a bunch of picture styles including WideDR from Cinema EOS, but really nothing  The only usable default profile is CLog but I need something for faster turnaround, and WideDR is a holy grail of that, so I guess I have to make it myself and not share with anyone  

[driver]

On 4/30/2019 at 8:57 PM, ade towell said:

what's the DR on the EOS-r like, I've not seen any measurements for it? Is it better than c100 with original c-log, does its other flavours of log push it beyond that? Presume you would need an external recorder to make use of 10 bit but has anyone tested it? Sorry lots of questions...

Highlight DR is much more important than the overall DR range, and that's why C100 mark II with only 12 stops looks like it has more than any Sony camera with 14 stops. Canon sensors favor highlights as it should, so you don't have to worry about that, it will always look better than the competition with less stops on paper.

[ade towell]

to be honest I thought slog2 held onto highlights better than clog on the C100 did. But the 8 bit was a problem with slog2 on the a6300 sometimes causing strange artefacts and banding, whereas 8 bit on clog seemed to work better.

10 bit slog2 and slog3 from the FS7 had way more highlight retention than the C100 in clog though

[webrunner5]

Yeah but the little C100 seems to have some kind of magic sauce that just deifies physics. One of those special cameras out there. Long in the tooth now for really serious stuff, but for "normal" people a buy of a lifetime.

[Mattias Burling]

On 4/30/2019 at 8:57 PM, ade towell said:

what's the DR on the EOS-r like, I've not seen any measurements for it? Is it better than c100 with original c-log, does its other flavours of log push it beyond that? Presume you would need an external recorder to make use of 10 bit but has anyone tested it? Sorry lots of questions...

It's 12 stops in log. Side by side with a 13 stop Blackmagic it can handle it self pretty well.

[ade towell]

ok thanks good to know, similar to the C100 then, I wonder if that's a limitation of the 8 bit internal

[austinchimp]

On 7/24/2019 at 1:46 AM, driver said:

Highlight DR is much more important than the overall DR range, and that's why C100 mark II with only 12 stops looks like it has more than any Sony camera with 14 stops. Canon sensors favor highlights as it should, so you don't have to worry about that, it will always look better than the competition with less stops on paper.

Comparing Sony S-Log or Rec709 profiles to Canon WDR or C-Log : My experience is that Sony profiles retain more overall dynamic range, but Canon looks better due to excellent highlight roll off, and nice desaturation of the highlights. It's like it's already graded. Where as Sony tends to need work, assuming both cameras are exposed more or less correctly.

[Mattias Burling]

Its always tricky since we look for different things and manufactures put different numbers on different DRs.

For me Ive decided that 13 stops from Blackmagic is my base since it rings true next to the 12 stops from Canon. The two companies seems to be in sync with each other. That means that I according to my own tests put Sony S-Log in for example the A7sii at 11 stops and Panasonic Cine-D at 10.

But if one decides for one self that Sonys 15 stops or what ever they claim is true, the scale will be different.

[ade towell]

I don't believe what most of the manufacturers claim either with regards DR, but having worked with the C100 and the Sony FS7 and a6300 I would say slog2 and 3 have a bit more DR to play with than clog. In 8 bit though, clog is much nicer to work with