androidlad Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, mercer said: Out of curiosity, then why does the C200 have 12bit and 10bit Raw? Also, the 5D3 has 14bit, 12bit and 10bit? They drop the bitdepth at the time of sensor readout. Sony sensors can use 10/11/12/14bit readout for video, in the case of Nikon Z6/Z7 they only operate at 12bit for video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Calabros Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 On 1/10/2019 at 1:22 AM, androidlad said: They drop the bitdepth at the time of sensor readout. Sony sensors can use 10/11/12/14bit readout for video, in the case of Nikon Z6/Z7 they only operate at 12bit for video. Readout bit depth is different from output bit depth. Atmos technical rep has said its 10bit. Probably sensors can't output 10bit at 30fps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Eric Calabros said: Readout bit depth is different from output bit depth. Atmos technical rep has said its 10bit. Probably sensors can't output 10bit at 30fps. Source for this Atomos rep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Here is the Newsshooter interview with Jeremy from Atomos. Fast forward to the 5:55 in the video. They ask Jeremy from Atomos point blank about bit depth. Listen to his answer... nuff said! 4 hours ago, androidlad said: Source for this Atomos rep? @androidlad and @Eric Calabros Oops wrong video... this one same marker 5:55... he is asked about bit depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, DBounce said: Here is the Newsshooter interview with Jeremy from Atomos. Fast forward to the 5:55 in the video. They ask Jeremy from Atomos point blank about bit depth. Listen to his answer... nuff said! @androidlad and @Eric Calabros Oops wrong video... this one same marker 5:55... he is asked about bit depth. 10bit N-log, 12bit ProRes RAW, case closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Calabros Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 @androidlad @DBounce Horshack is an engineer Z7 owner, he knows this stuff very well. The only benefit of this RAW that comes to mind is outputing image larger than 4k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 35 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said: @androidlad @DBounce Horshack is an engineer Z7 owner, he knows this stuff very well. The only benefit of this RAW that comes to mind is outputing image larger than 4k. Jeremy Young is the CEO and founder of Atomos... And that is where the buck stops my friend. He didn’t say it “could” do 12 bit... he said it “does”. Oh snap... you didn’t buy a P4k did you? Kisaha and Emanuel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 What I got from Jeremy in that interview was “we are currently recording 12-bit” i.e 12-bit is possible but he says right after “it’s up to Nikon” about potential restrictions and that he’ll be “pushing” them for max output. So both outcomes kinda seem possible depending on Nikon’s final word. It would seem rather silly of them to go through all that effort only to deliver 10-bit Prores Raw though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 If it can do 6k that is pretty significant. Still no 4k 60p tho. The pocket does that at $1300 Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Calabros Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 40 minutes ago, DBounce said: Jeremy Young is the CEO and founder of Atomos... And that is where the buck stops my friend. He didn’t say it “could” do 12 bit... he said it “does”. Oh snap... you didn’t buy a P4k did you? What P4k has anything to do with this? I'm not interested in anything smaller than FF. @Django is right, CEO guy is just saying our device is capable of "receiving" 12bit signal up to 60fps. Nikon never mentioned the bit depth, or frame rate. I guess Atmos asked all camera makers to use their proprietary idea, and only Nikon let them start the development, and when they saw it works they found it a free hype generator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Eric Calabros said: What P4k has anything to do with this? I'm not interested in anything smaller than FF. @Django is right, CEO guy is just saying our device is capable of "receiving" 12bit signal up to 60fps. Nikon never mentioned the bit depth, or frame rate. I guess Atmos asked all camera makers to use their proprietary idea, and only Nikon let them start the development, and when they saw it works they found it a free hype generator. Atomos recorded demos in ProRes raw sent from the Z6 and was showing the footage at CES. This footage was recorded from a 12 bit signal. This isn’t a theory... it’s a fact. Also you totally misquoted @Django twisting his words to support your view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Eric Calabros said: @androidlad @DBounce Horshack is an engineer Z7 owner, he knows this stuff very well. The only benefit of this RAW that comes to mind is outputing image larger than 4k. Let's use some common sense: 1. ProRes RAW is linear RAW, 10bit code values are extremely insufficient for storing linear data, you'd get severe banding. ARRI uses 12bit log RAW and Sony CineAlta uses 14bit linear RAW. 2. Z6's base sensor IMX410 does not have 10bit ADC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said: If it can do 6k that is pretty significant. Still no 4k 60p tho. The pocket does that at $1300 With a sensor that is 1/4th the size and a body that is 2x larger... and battery life that is 1/3rd. But yeah... the P4k “manages” 4K @60. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 minute ago, DBounce said: With a sensor that is 1/4th the size and a body that is 2x larger... and battery life that is 1/3rd. But yeah... the “manage” 4K @60. Yeah but the Nikon is really just another hybrid camera without the external recorder. Its also 12 bit raw 4k 60p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 This is what the Z6 sensor IMX410 is capable of with the fast and expensive SLVS-EC interface, note that Nikon uses subLVDS which is a lot slower. If you cross reference this with Mavo LF spec, it's identical. It's also an indication of the capabilities of Panasonic S1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 41 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: Yeah but the Nikon is really just another hybrid camera without the external recorder. Its also 12 bit raw 4k 60p Until they add internal raw recording... which will likely happen once they release the firmware that supports CF Express. Atomos said the camera is capable of internal raw... the Ninja V is just a quicker way to deliver it development wise. Shooting with an unrigged P4k sounds like an exercise in frustration. You need external power... you need a screen that tilts... you need an external recorder... you need a speedbooster. Without these things the experience will be less than optimal. However, right now... without anything added, the in camera footage from the Z6 is excellent. Add a decent mic, lower the internal pres and add some gain from the mic and audio is more than usable. I know... I’ve done it. The Nikon is fully functional right out of the box. Not sure how one can even compare the two with any credibility. Yes, the P4K sounded like a deal before this breakthrough, but what has happened is pretty substantial. I honestly would not consider a P4K in light of this announcement. This is why the new Z mount lenses are designed to accommodate video. The real question is... how will Sony answer this without threading on the toes of their cinema division? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, DBounce said: Until they add internal raw recording... which will likely happen once they release the firmware that supports CF Express. Atomos said the camera is capable of internal raw... the Ninja V is just a quicker way to deliver it development wise. Shooting with an unrigged P4k sounds like an exercise in frustration. You need external power... you need a screen that tilts... you need an external recorder... you need a speedbooster. Without these things the experience will be less than optimal. However, right now... without anything added, the in camera footage from the Z6 is excellent. Add a decent mic, lower the internal pres and add some gain from the mic and audio is more than usable. I know... I’ve done it. The Nikon is fully functional right out of the box. Not sure how one can even compare the two with any credibility. Yes, the P4K sounded like a deal before this breakthrough, but what has happened is pretty substantial. I honestly would not consider a P4K in light of this announcement. This is why the new Z mount lenses are designed to accommodate video. The real question is... how will Sony answer this without threading on the toes of their cinema division? Yeah but if you need 4k 60 all of that goes out the window. Why do you need an external recorder for the P4K? I also don't think you need a speed booster unless you need a certain DOF. You can get a monitor for under $200 that will power both the camera and the monitor at the same time. Still $1000 cheaper than the Z6. I do think the Z6 is amazing and certainly blows the Pocket 4k away in some aspects. But the Pocket 4k is a great little tool for the price that has some pro features that the Z6 lacks. Just saying. Internal RAW would certainly be awesome if that is a feature they add. If Panasonic introduces full frame 4k 60p that will be huge and if they do it I am sure Sony will too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: Yeah but if you need 4k 60 all of that goes out the window. Why do you need an external recorder for the P4K? I also don't think you need a speed booster unless you need a certain DOF. You can get a monitor for under $200 that will power both the camera and the monitor at the same time. Still $1000 cheaper than the Z6. I do think the Z6 is amazing and certainly blows the Pocket 4k away in some aspects. But the Pocket 4k is a great little tool for the price that has some pro features that the Z6 lacks. Just saying. Internal RAW would certainly be awesome if that is a feature they add. If Panasonic introduces full frame 4k 60p that will be huge and if they do it I am sure Sony will too. And what happens when you want to take a picture at more than 8MP? Hmmm? Or maybe it's raining outside? You are comparing a dedicated video camera to a true hybrid. Before franken-rigging up a P4K, I would just reach for my Canon C200 and be done with it. The only appeal imo of the P4k would be size... which is defeated once you start rigging it. Like I said, it was interesting before Nikon decided they would stop protecting Canon's and Sony's and Panasonics cinema lines, but those days are over. BM had better come up with one hell of a plan B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Calabros Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, DBounce said: Atomos recorded demos in ProRes raw sent from the Z6 and was showing the footage at CES. This footage was recorded from a 12 bit signal. This isn’t a theory... it’s a fact. Judging a footage's data integrity from a visual examination of a youtube video of a display in an exhibition booth, is not a fact. Its a funny speculation. Anyway, you can always encode 8bit signal with 10bit codec, or 10bit signal with 12bit codec. 1 hour ago, androidlad said: Let's use some common sense: 1. ProRes RAW is linear RAW, 10bit code values are extremely insufficient for storing linear data, you'd get severe banding. ARRI uses 12bit log RAW and Sony CineAlta uses 14bit linear RAW. 2. Z6's base sensor IMX410 does not have 10bit ADC. 1. It can be linear or log. Did you know the 12bit still raw image in photo cameras are actually 10+2bit? 2.a. We can't be sure its exactly IMX410. 2.b. We're not talking about the ADC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Eric Calabros said: Judging a footage's data integrity from a visual examination of a youtube video of a display in an exhibition booth, is not a fact. Its a funny speculation. Anyway, you can always encode 8bit signal with 10bit codec, or 10bit signal with 12bit codec. 1. It can be linear or log. Did you know the 12bit still raw image in photo cameras are actually 10+2bit? 2.a. We can't be sure its exactly IMX410. 2.b. We're not talking about the ADC. 1. ProRes RAW is linear, it's written in the whitepaper. 12bit lossy RAW photo is irrelevant in this discussion. 2. a. Yes it's based on IMX410. Z6's rolling shutter in 4K matches A7III down to milliseconds. 2. b. ADC determines RAW bitdepth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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