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DBounce

Nikon Z6 Low Light

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22 hours ago, DBounce said:

The bar was not well lite. I set everything with manual settings.... 1/50, f1.8 and ISO 4000. I don't like setting changing on me by themselves. The 24-70mm f4 was correctly exposed with ISO 4000 and same shutter speed. It was at the wide end of the range.  That's really the only difference. 

Still not following you I'm afraid.

Are you saying that the image is noisier at ISO 4000 1/50 F4 than ISO 4000 1/50 F1.8?

In that case your exposure is brighter by nearly 2 stops due to F1.8 vs F4 so you cannot be exposing both shots the same with both the 50mm and 24-70.

A brighter exposure always shows less noise at high ISOs, no matter what the camera.

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1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Well, you might for example want to shoot at a fast shutter speed, for slow-mo?

Sure, if I can’t open the aperture any further. Of course I will apply more gain when it is required. But my point was that same gain can look different depending on exposure. 

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3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Still not following you I'm afraid.

Are you saying that the image is noisier at ISO 4000 1/50 F4 than ISO 4000 1/50 F1.8?

In that case your exposure is brighter by nearly 2 stops due to F1.8 vs F4 so you cannot be exposing both shots the same with both the 50mm and 24-70.

A brighter exposure always shows less noise at high ISOs, no matter what the camera.

You’re assuming the available light was the same. Both were properly exposed for the lighting conditions. In other words I used the f4 when more light was available.

I’ll try to repeat this test. I’m as confused as you are, as usually I set a max ISO that is acceptably clean for my various cameras. On the GH5 it was 1600... on the GH5S 6400... same with the 1DXMK2. With the Nikon it’s... variable?

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17 hours ago, DBounce said:

I've noticed that the Z6 behaves like a dual base ISO camera... 2000 ISO is less clean than 3200 ISO for example...

Can you or any Z6 or even Z7 (for the other sensor) owner/user post such ISO comparison test (with the cap on + NR off and so on properly set, obviously) along the whole ISO range, please?

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The Z has indeed dual gain, as you can see it here: "The sensor uses a 'dual gain' design that at higher ISO uses a lower-noise readout method"

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7/7

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I think just about every camera has a bump in ISO on his test. Plug in a few different late version cameras and they all have some sort of boost or dip in them. I don't think there is any dual ISO going on in a  Nikon Z camera at all. The Sony A7 mk III has a Way bigger jump than the Nikon Z7.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

 

Here is the Nikon Z6 test.

1633786603_2018-12-11(1).thumb.png.17cb8ea206f93a9b5012026e095554f1.png

2018-12-11.png

 

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2 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Can you or any Z6 or even Z7 (for the other sensor) owner/user post such ISO comparison test (with the cap on + NR off and so on properly set, obviously) along the whole ISO range, please?

Sure, I will try tonight with my z6. What exactly should I do (sorry, never did stuff like this) ? Camera on tripod with lenscap on, NR Off (+ others parameters properly set), then record every ISO step from 100 to 51200 for a couple of seconds, then edit this to make a short video ?

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5 hours ago, Geoff_L said:

Sure, I will try tonight with my z6. What exactly should I do (sorry, never did stuff like this) ? Camera on tripod with lenscap on, NR Off (+ others parameters properly set), then record every ISO step from 100 to 51200 for a couple of seconds, then edit this to make a short video ?

Yes, giving information on each step. Thanks : -)

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5 hours ago, Geoff_L said:

Sure, I will try tonight with my z6. What exactly should I do (sorry, never did stuff like this) ? Camera on tripod with lenscap on, NR Off (+ others parameters properly set), then record every ISO step from 100 to 51200 for a couple of seconds, then edit this to make a short video ?

It may behave differently depending on the lens used. That would be an interesting difference to most other cameras. 

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8 hours ago, liork said:

The Z has indeed dual gain, as you can see it here: "The sensor uses a 'dual gain' design that at higher ISO uses a lower-noise readout method"

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7/7

 

Yeah lots of Sony sensors have Dual Gain. Like I said the Sony a7 III has a more pronounced graph than the Z6. It is not a dual ISO camera. Doesn't mean it is Dual ISO like a GH5s, PK4. It is so you can have a lower base ISO for Photography.

Trust me if either the Z6 or the Z7 has Dual ISO in the Video side it would have been in Large print at the top of their Spec Sheet, and white papers. It would have been Bragging rights. They would have had examples all over the Web.

https://petapixel.com/2018/06/15/the-nikon-d850s-sensor-is-made-by-sony-report/

"This news confirms what Sony told us about the way its semiconductor company deals with external clients: other companies can commission Sony Semiconductor to make them a sensor and can include their own intellectual property in the design, without that information (or the rights to use it) being available to Sony’s camera division. Hence the D850 features the BSI and dual gain designs that Sony uses in many of its own cameras but is also able to provide an ISO 64 mode that allows the Nikon to rival some of the latest medium format cameras, but that Sony cameras don’t offer."

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51 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah lots of Sony sensors have Dual Gain. Like I said the Sony a7 III has a more pronounced graph than the Z6. It is not a dual ISO camera. Doesn't mean it is Dual ISO like a GH5s, PK4. It is so you can have a lower base ISO for Photography.

Trust me if either the Z6 or the Z7 has Dual ISO in the Video side it would have been in Large print at the top of their Spec Sheet, and white papers. It would have been Bragging rights. They would have had examples all over the Web.

https://petapixel.com/2018/06/15/the-nikon-d850s-sensor-is-made-by-sony-report/

"This news confirms what Sony told us about the way its semiconductor company deals with external clients: other companies can commission Sony Semiconductor to make them a sensor and can include their own intellectual property in the design, without that information (or the rights to use it) being available to Sony’s camera division. Hence the D850 features the BSI and dual gain designs that Sony uses in many of its own cameras but is also able to provide an ISO 64 mode that allows the Nikon to rival some of the latest medium format cameras, but that Sony cameras don’t offer."

The Z7 has similar sensor to the D850 + PDAF.

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16 minutes ago, liork said:

The Z7 has similar sensor to the D850 + PDAF.

I think that it is a new sensor manufactured by Sony which I don't think the D850 has. Also it seems to be a lot more noisy than the D850 camera. But just a guess on my part.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1234108119/nikon-d850-sensor-confirmed-as-sony-made

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It works same as it is on the 5D IV. 

And the Z7 sensor works identically to the D850 except some banding because of the PDAF pixels. 

No need to argue here, it is a fact that the Z7 has dual gain. 

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45 minutes ago, liork said:

It works same as it is on the 5D IV. 

And the Z7 sensor works identically to the D850 except some banding because of the PDAF pixels. 

No need to argue here, it is a fact that the Z7 has dual gain. 

The Sony A7 III has dual gain. So what. It is not the same as Dual ISO for video.

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5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

The Sony A7 III has dual gain. So what. It is not the same as Dual ISO for video.

Well that's the thing. I think the Nikon might use a similar system for video as does the GH5S. Testing can confirm this. I'm going to look into it once i have time. It's good to know where the strengths and weaknesses are on a system. 

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