Sport videos GH4

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

Hi there,

 

I have a question, should I use 4k or C4K for sports videos? (interview)

It's about tennis interview and I would prefer to use 4k 30fps because its smoother than C4K 24fps.

Well, what would you use?

 

 

 

 

[thebrothersthre3]

Wouldn't really matter for me. 

24p is the movie cinema look, as almost every film has been shot in 24 frames per second.

There isn't a lot of movement where the frame rate would be that noticeable during an interview imo. 

[Mmmbeats]

It really doesn't matter.  You could even crop the UHD if you prefer the 1.9:1 aspect ratio, for a small drop in resolution.

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

Hi there! thanks for the fast reply!

 

I would use also the C4K for a tennis video, so fast movements, should I use UHD 30fps for smooth movements?

 

Also, when I convert HD 60fps to 24fps (footage from GH4) on premiere pro, the 24fps converted video does not look really smooth, how can I solve this?

@thebrothersthre3

 

-Thanks

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

48 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

It really doesn't matter.  You could even crop the UHD if you prefer the 1.9:1 aspect ratio, for a small drop in resolution.

Ok but for tennis video, there are movements so? 4k 30fps ? 

[Mmmbeats]

Are you mastering to 30fps on the timeline because you prefer a smoother playback, rather than a film-look 24p?  Or are you shooting 30fps to put on a 24p timeline (which seems pointless as far as I can figure)?

60fps --> 24p timeline should work fine (for slow-mo).  Perhaps you are having playback issues on your edit machine.  Try rendering the timeline.

[thebrothersthre3]

When you shoot in 60p and bring down to 24 in post are you using proper Shutter speed. Should be 120 shutter speed for smooth 60fps if using for slow motion. 

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

5 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

When you shoot in 60p and bring down to 24 in post are you using proper Shutter speed. Should be 120 shutter speed for smooth 60fps if using for slow motion. 

Hi @thebrothersthre3

 

I think this was shutter speed issue.

What about 30 to 24 fps?

Does it work fine?

 

Thanks.

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

6 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Are you mastering to 30fps on the timeline because you prefer a smoother playback, rather than a film-look 24p?  Or are you shooting 30fps to put on a 24p timeline (which seems pointless as far as I can figure)?

60fps --> 24p timeline should work fine (for slow-mo).  Perhaps you are having playback issues on your edit machine.  Try rendering the timeline.

Hi, I shoot on a basic timeline using 30fps footage that I render to 24fps mp4. The original footage is mov format, I also mix this 30fps footage with 60fps footage that I set as 50% speed (60fps footage set to 50% speed only) 

 

I mix 30fps and 60fps footage on the timeline, that I render directly in 24fps, is this goos way to proceed ? Should I use PAL or NTSC for render? 

 

(Gh4)

[Mmmbeats]

That's an unusual workflow, and one which I can't see any advantage to.

It's customary to edit on a timeline that matches your output file, so in your case you would use a 24p timeline.

Shooting at higher frame rates for sports action will give you either slow mo (which you seem to be achieving fine with your 60p footage) or smoother playback. But this last option only works if your output remains high frame rate.

You basically have a choice - shooting at 24p for a 24p timeline, which will give you that nice filmic quality, or shooting 30p for a 30p timeline (and output render) which will give you a smooth video-like quality that might help to portray the sports movement more accurately. The choice is an aesthetic one.

Shooting 30p then rendering 24p doesn't seem to make any sense to me. You don't get any significant slow mo, and you throw away all the frame that would have made the motion feel smoother. Unless I'm missing some technique here.

[leslie]

3 hours ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Hi, I shoot on a basic timeline using 30fps footage that I render to 24fps mp4. The original footage is mov format, I also mix this 30fps footage with 60fps footage that I set as 50% speed (60fps footage set to 50% speed only) 

 

I mix 30fps and 60fps footage on the timeline, that I render directly in 24fps, is this goos way to proceed ? Should I use PAL or NTSC for render? 

 

(Gh4)

i'm trying to follow this conversation but i'm struggling. it seems to me that you traveling something  of a tangled path but maybe thats me

pal is 25 fps

ntsc is 29.97 fps or 30 fps depending on how technically inclined you are as i understand it

movies are 24 fps

why do you render to movies at 24fps ? unless your  going to watch this on a cinema screen ? dragging everything  to 24 fps and then speeding it up too either pal or ntsc standards  must have some small detrimental effect to either sound or video playback . depending in which country you live, wouldn't you be recording pal or ntsc  format ? maybe if you lived in aus then exported dvds to the us you would render to ntsc format to suit their market or vise versa but i think taking stuff back to 24 frames is a step you could avoid i think. if you are steaming content online or sending to youtube  there doesn't appear to be any difference when i watch you tubes from online and different countries i have never noticed any odd thing happening i guess there is some "magic" going on in the background to make it all seemless regardless of which format you record in ( thats a bit of generalization i know maybe someone more knowledgeable could chime in   )

i grabbed this off wikipedia to help illustrate my point

PAL vs. NTSC

PAL usually has 576 visible lines compared with 486 lines with NTSC, meaning that PAL has a 20% higher resolution, in fact it even has a higher resolution than Enhanced Definition standard (854x486).[citation needed] Most TV output for PAL and NTSC use interlaced frames meaning that even lines update on one field and odd lines update on the next field. Interlacing frames gives a smoother motion with half the frame rate. NTSC is used with a frame rate of 60i or 30p whereas PAL generally uses 50i or 25p; both use a high enough frame rate to give the illusion of fluid motion. This is due to the fact that NTSC is generally used in countries with a utility frequency of 60 Hz and PAL in countries with 50 Hz, although there are many exceptions. Both PAL and NTSC have a higher frame rate than film which uses 24 frames per second. PAL has a closer frame rate to that of film, so most films are sped up 4% to play on PAL systems, shortening the runtime of the film and, without adjustment, slightly raising the pitch of the audio track. Film conversions for NTSC instead use 3:2 pull down to spread the 24 frames of film across 60 interlaced fields. This maintains the runtime of the film and preserves the original audio, but may cause worse interlacing artifacts during fast motion.

hope it helps

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

Hi there,

 

thanks for your answer @leslie

So, to clarify, I shot 30fps footage which I downscale to 24fps, the 30fps footage has no effects applied to it, no acceleration as you mentioned.

So, may this affect my footage? 60fps to 24fps looks ok to me.

 

*****Clarified VERSION******

Well, I will soon shoot another video using 60 fps 1080p for slow motion and 4k 30fps for normal footage.

I want to mix all this and render at 24fps, how do I proceed to get a smooth video?

 

regards, 

Yan.

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

2 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

That's an unusual workflow, and one which I can't see any advantage to.

It's customary to edit on a timeline that matches your output file, so in your case you would use a 24p timeline.

Shooting at higher frame rates for sports action will give you either slow mo (which you seem to be achieving fine with your 60p footage) or smoother playback. But this last option only works if your output remains high frame rate.

You basically have a choice - shooting at 24p for a 24p timeline, which will give you that nice filmic quality, or shooting 30p for a 30p timeline (and output render) which will give you a smooth video-like quality that might help to portray the sports movement more accurately. The choice is an aesthetic one.

Shooting 30p then rendering 24p doesn't seem to make any sense to me. You don't get any significant slow mo, and you throw away all the frame that would have made the motion feel smoother. Unless I'm missing some technique here.

Hi @Mmmbeats

Thanks for the answer, 

I will use a 24fps timeline with 60fps footage.

I will also use 30fps footage into this timeline, is it ok? I did not say I wanted slow motion with the 30fps when I was speaking about 60fps one, there was a misunderstood. 

[Mmmbeats]

You're likely to get stuttering with your 30fps footage on a 24fps timeline.  In future you should shoot 24p for this.

If you are stuck with 30p and 60p footage (I'm assuming progressive scan?) then you should probably export for 30p I would have thought. 

Here's a basic vid on the topic:

 

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

5 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

You're likely to get stuttering with your 30fps footage on a 24fps timeline.  In future you should shoot 24p for this.

If you are stuck with 30p and 60p footage (I'm assuming progressive scan?) then you should probably export for 30p I would have thought. 

Hi, I use premiere pro for this, what do you mean by progressive scan?

[Mmmbeats]

There's a kind of compression called interlace (as an alternative to the more common progressive scan).  It's highly likely that you are not using it, and it would have probably been better if I hadn't mentioned it - just passed through my head briefly.  Probably best to forget about (or research it at another time if you're curious). 

I added a vid link to my comment btw.

[leslie]

1 hour ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Hi there,

 

thanks for your answer @leslie

So, to clarify, I shot 30fps footage which I downscale to 24fps, the 30fps footage has no effects applied to it, no acceleration as you mentioned.

So, may this affect my footage? 60fps to 24fps looks ok to me.

 

*****Clarified VERSION******

Well, I will soon shoot another video using 60 fps 1080p for slow motion and 4k 30fps for normal footage.

I want to mix all this and render at 24fps, how do I proceed to get a smooth video?

 

regards, 

Yan.

i am not sure that downscale is the correct term technically your putting 30 fps onto a 24fps timeline which results in either 1 second of  30fps footage  playing for 1.25 seconds if my math is right which makes the duration slightly longer and probably a barely perceptible slow motion effect , the other option you constrain you footage to the 24fps timeline in which case frames have to be dropped. six frames per second, as 30 into 24 doesn't fit real well. please someone correct me if i'm wrong. downscale to me is more like taking 1080 footage and converting it to 720.

if your determined to shoot at 24 fps just shoot your interviews and the tennis at 24 fps  you can the shoot the slow motion stuff at 60 fps  and intercut it with your 24fps timeline giving you filmic look with the slow motion of 60fps

computers do a marvelous job of speeding things up and down, you may not notice  a few seconds of 30fps slowed to 24 fps but if the footage went for ten minutes i think you might. for me inter cutting 24 fps with 30 fps and 60 fps would get tedious and given enough time i'd screw it up somewhere, either at the interview stage or on the court or in post.

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

46 minutes ago, leslie said:

i am not sure that downscale is the correct term technically your putting 30 fps onto a 24fps timeline which results in either 1 second of  30fps footage  playing for 1.25 seconds if my math is right which makes the duration slightly longer and probably a barely perceptible slow motion effect , the other option you constrain you footage to the 24fps timeline in which case frames have to be dropped. six frames per second, as 30 into 24 doesn't fit real well. please someone correct me if i'm wrong. downscale to me is more like taking 1080 footage and converting it to 720.

if your determined to shoot at 24 fps just shoot your interviews and the tennis at 24 fps  you can the shoot the slow motion stuff at 60 fps  and intercut it with your 24fps timeline giving you filmic look with the slow motion of 60fps

computers do a marvelous job of speeding things up and down, you may not notice  a few seconds of 30fps slowed to 24 fps but if the footage went for ten minutes i think you might. for me inter cutting 24 fps with 30 fps and 60 fps would get tedious and given enough time i'd screw it up somewhere, either at the interview stage or on the court or in post.

@Mmmbeats @leslie

 

Thanks a lot, guys for your help and for all your very nice and fast answers, this helped me a lot in my projects, will do 24fps timeline with 24fps content. And will mix with 60fps content for slow motion.

This is more clear for me, I can see 30 to 24fps is very bad and not smooth.

[leslie]

1 hour ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

Hi, I use premiere pro for this, what do you mean by progressive scan?

its kinda old school, it relates back to analog tv and how a picture was built up on the old cathode ray  tube. there was progressive  scan and interlaced. i'm kinda feeling rather old right about now i think i'll shut up and have a nap

[@yan_berthemy_photography]

5 minutes ago, leslie said:

its kinda old school, it relates back to analog tv and how a picture was built up on the old cathode ray  tube. there was progressive  scan and interlaced. i'm kinda feeling rather old right about now i think i'll shut up and have a nap

Oh ya, I see.

Well? it's a good idea?

10 minutes ago, @yan_berthemy_photography said:

@Mmmbeats @leslie

 

Thanks a lot, guys for your help and for all your very nice and fast answers, this helped me a lot in my projects, will do 24fps timeline with 24fps content. And will mix with 60fps content for slow motion.

This is more clear for me, I can see 30 to 24fps is very bad and not smooth.