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Dan Wake

will we ever see the rise of the global shutter cameras?

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I guess readout speeds will just get shorter so it's not as obvious but I'm not sure a true global shutter will be around the corner anytime soon as manufacturers concentrate on more resolution and DR. If you compare the original BMPCC with the new 4k model then rolling shutter was an obvious problem with the first model and did restrict it's suitability in certain situations whereas although the new camera has rolling shutter it's much less and is not an obvious 'artefact' most users need to be concerned with.

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Yep! It's an awesome feature that came at the cost of DR and noise so they dropped it like a brick for the 4.6K, which has a superior image. People don't give a hoot about rolling shutter as long as it's minimal enough. P4K, GH5S, Ursa 4.6k have all reached that point imo.

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On 12/1/2018 at 12:35 PM, Dan Wake said:

I know rolling shutter is far better today but I really wish a game changer in this direction, any hope?

When rolling shutter is so fast that no average viewer ever notices it under normal usual shooting conditions, then can a global shutter camera ever be a "game changer"??

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Right, even ARRI Alexa (the cine gold standard) has RS.. but at 6ms it's practically unnoticeable. To achieve that though, it shoots in 2K on Super35.

However, the current trend in hybrids is towards large sensors, high resolution, max DR & ISO performance. This comes at the cost of poor RS (Nikon Z & EOS R are certainly proof of that).

Fuji seem to be the only ones really paying attention to RS with XT3, by purposely not going full-frame or racing towards high MP/ISO. and focusing processing power towards sensor readout, achieving sub 10ms which is already great. 

Can't imagine the RS on these speculated 60MP / 8K Sony sensors without an octo-core if not higher processing requirements..

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20 minutes ago, Django said:

Right, even ARRI Alexa (the cine gold standard) has RS.. but at 6ms it's practically unnoticeable. To achieve that though, it shoots in 2K on Super35.

However, the current trend in hybrids is towards large sensors, high resolution, max DR & ISO performance. This comes at the cost of poor RS (Nikon Z & EOS R are certainly proof of that).

Fuji seem to be the only ones really paying attention to RS with XT3, by purposely not going full-frame or racing towards high MP/ISO. and focusing processing power towards sensor readout, achieving sub 10ms which is already great. 

Can't imagine the RS on these speculated 60MP / 8K Sony sensors without an octo-core if not higher processing requirements..

Current generation ALEXA/AMIRA have rolling shutter about 2ms.

And rolling shutter on X-T3 in 4K is 20ms (<30p), 16ms (60p).

Rolling shutter performance has nothing to do with processor (ISP), it's a sensor characteristic, largely determined by ADC design. X-T3 is able to achieve this relatively fast readout by sacrificing quality for speed with 12bit ADC (compared to 14bit ADC in stills mode).

Regarding the 8K sensors from Sony, rolling shutter can potentially be even lower based on the chip design (18-parallel ADC which is more than twice that of A9). Combined with 12bit ADC, 8K readout could technically be well under 10ms (A9 electronic shutter in stills mode has a transit time of 6.25ms). But it's up to Sony to decide if they fully implement it in video mode (it wasn't available in A9 video mode).

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22 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Current generation ALEXA/AMIRA have rolling shutter about 2ms.

And rolling shutter on X-T3 in 4K is 20ms (<30p), 16ms (60p).

Rolling shutter performance has nothing to do with processor (ISP), it's a sensor characteristic, largely determined by ADC design. X-T3 is able to achieve this relatively fast readout by sacrificing quality for speed with 12bit ADC (compared to 14bit ADC in stills mode).

1

You're right about AMIRA but charts/reports from various sites seem to claim otherwise for XT3:

Rolling-shutter-chart-X-T3-640x342@2x.jp

 

I was also under the impression the quad-core processor alongside the new BSI sensor helped achieve the low RS number:

 Fujifilm says that it has worked to reduce rolling shutter (aka jello effect) to an absolute minimum in designing the X-T3. The new high-performance sensor and processor pairing together allow a level of rolling shutter that Fuji is confident will best not just previous Fuji cameras, but rivals as well. In fact, we're told that the company has managed to get rolling shutter down to about the same level as dedicated cinema cameras which are also CMOS sensor-based.

Fujifilm X-T3 Review

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1 hour ago, Django said:

You're right about AMIRA but charts/reports from various sites seem to claim otherwise for XT3:

I was also under the impression the quad-core processor alongside the new BSI sensor helped achieve the low RS number:

 Fujifilm says that it has worked to reduce rolling shutter (aka jello effect) to an absolute minimum in designing the X-T3. The new high-performance sensor and processor pairing together allow a level of rolling shutter that Fuji is confident will best not just previous Fuji cameras, but rivals as well. In fact, we're told that the company has managed to get rolling shutter down to about the same level as dedicated cinema cameras which are also CMOS sensor-based.

Fujifilm X-T3 Review

X-T3 result on cinema5D is erroneous and that number exceeds the sensor spec on the datasheet. I'm an X-T3 owner and I have tested it myself.

Again, rolling shutter performance is solely a sensor characteristic, Imaging Resource obviously didn't get that. The processor helps with off-chip tasks such as supersampling.

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6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

When rolling shutter is so fast that no average viewer ever notices it under normal usual shooting conditions, then can a global shutter camera ever be a "game changer"??

If global shutter technology gets reasonably good, I imagine it will find its way into photo cameras in order do do away with shutters. If 10 years from now we have a choice between 20 stops of DR with 6ms rolling shutter vs. 14 stops with global shutter, I'm sure a lot of people would choose the latter.

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The BM Mini is pretty much rated at 12 stops, and the BM 4.6 Pro is pretty much rated at 15 stops. So a 3 stop loss on paper, which is a lot. But the 4.6 Pro is a newer generation sensor, so the new tech alone may have added 1/2 to 1 stop. So I don't think Global Shutters are as bad as most make them out to be. 12 true stops is not too shabby if it is real stops. Same spec DR as the C100, C300 sensor and they seem to do pretty well also. A BM Mini, even today, has a damn good looking output. What the PK4 is 13 stops. Not a heck of a lot more even today. But it is a smaller sensor. 4.6 has a bigger sensor than the Mini, so that helped add a bit more DR maybe.

Interesting DR chart for the PK4. Might help people out on what to expect at higher ISO's.

http://www.aramk.us/bmpcc4k-chart-dynamic-range/

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My point was that eventually DR and sensitivity will be good enough, and the convenience of global shutter vs. mechanical will take over. 14 stops vs. 17, 14 vs. 140, same thing if we don't have screens that can reproduce it anyway.

Global shutters are already sought after for industrial uses, which means there is always going to be some innovation even if consumers aren't interested. When GS sensors get good enough to put in consumer devices and make satisfactorily good photos at a low cost, then we'll see them proliferate, and us video people will benefit as well.

I don't think the DSLR video market is large enough to push towards global shutters on its own. I think global shutters are more likely to be pushed in the photography world. Just my prediction.

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I can't much imagine what will be out in 5 years from now. But I would think what will be out then will be so amazing that the Need for a better camera will be over with for the average person. Sure there can always be better, but most cameras now are better than the operators even now. So maybe some of the GAS will disperse by then.. 😁

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Rolling shutter went from being one of my biggest concerns to something I don't even think about these days. The only cameras I notice having bad rolling shutter these days are the Sony a6xxx cameras. Every other camera has made huge leaps, to the point that global shutter doesn't interest me at all. 

I can only see rolling shutter being an issue on blockbuster films, like the Top Gun sequel where they're going to be shooting fighter jets at insane speeds. 

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3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Rolling shutter went from being one of my biggest concerns to something I don't even think about these days. The only cameras I notice having bad rolling shutter these days are the Sony a6xxx cameras. Every other camera has made huge leaps, to the point that global shutter doesn't interest me at all. 

I can only see rolling shutter being an issue on blockbuster films, like the Top Gun sequel where they're going to be shooting fighter jets at insane speeds. 

if I need to use "80mm" for a close shot portrait in a car and I want also background moving can I be confident that actual rolling shutter is not a problem? I need zero distortions on the background it ruins my audience attention, it's a poison for the scenes

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On 12/1/2018 at 5:05 AM, Dan Wake said:

will we ever see the rise of the global shutter cameras? I mean the real end of rolling shutter cameras.

I know rolling shutter is far better today but I really wish a game changer in this direction, any hope?

Is there any proof that a Global Shutter Camera will or has better motion cadence that ci rma camera and prosumer CMOS sensors with faster readout? In the cinematic or filmmaking cinema sensor space, many cameras (especially the Alexas), seem to be more than good enough.

Are there global sensor cameras that apparently have a more cinematic motion cadence and less noticeable rolling shutter? Also having an extremely fast readout speed, I suspect, may not let the image have the necessary softness required for a cinematic image. I am suddenly wondering whether film stock had issues with rolling shutter. Not to mentions the 2-3 stops of light loss and lower dynamic range of global CCD sensors. Also many CMOS sensors have global shutter circuitry, so things are not exactly black and white.

 

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2 hours ago, Dan Wake said:

I need zero distortions on the background it ruins my audience attention, it's a poison for the scenes

There is countless tv shows or movies with multi million dollar budgets and I'll see quite severe rolling shutter in them on some specific certain shots. 

But so what? Almost nobody in the viewing audience but myself and a few other geeks will ever notice it. 

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