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Andrew Reid

There will be a Sony A7S II successor. The bad news is - "it will take time"

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Well one thing I think is clear with a push toward 8K they sure as heck are not going to do that in these small Mirrorless bodies without some major breakthrough. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. Especially with a push of having Raw in them to boot.

So it seems they are going to have to go to small Cine camera bodies with a Fan to do it. Might be the hangup with the Sony A7s mk III. Not counting a Way bigger battery needed to make it all work. Sony particularly it seems to me is going to Have to up size as they say, or just be stuck with overheating like crazy.

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9 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

To be fair, the EVA 1 isn't even a Cinema camera just like the Sony FS and Canon C100 - C300 line, its a high end video camera.

Varicam LT and Varicam 35 are Panasonic's true cinema line cameras. 


Then we enter into the endless debate of what is or isn't a "cinema" camera.....

 

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48 minutes ago, IronFilm said:


Then we enter into the endless debate of what is or isn't a "cinema" camera.....

 

Yeah and the original BMPCC would not be considered a a Point n Shoot that is for sure. I kind of always considered it a poor mans Cine Camera. I guess we could call Anything that is a bitch to shoot with and grade is a Cine Camera LoL.

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3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well one thing I think is clear with a push toward 8K they sure as heck are not going to do that in these small Mirrorless bodies without some major breakthrough. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. Especially with a push of having Raw in them to boot.

So it seems they are going to have to go to small Cine camera bodies with a Fan to do it. Might be the hangup with the Sony A7s mk III. Not counting a Way bigger battery needed to make it all work. Sony particularly it seems to me is going to Have to up size as they say, or just be stuck with overheating like crazy.

I agree about size and heat dissipation, but that contradicts the idea that all the cameras in a given lineup had the same body?

It's a strange situation to be in because if they push their video line-up and make a new body (that would obviously be larger due to cooling fans) for it, then it would make sense to use the opportunity for adding things like NDs and other things that take up space and they couldn't before.  If they did that and called it the A7SIII then it would confuse the A7 lineup completely but capture all the PR from the A7SII customers and reputation.  If they decide to slot it into their cinema lineup and call it something like the FS3, then most A7SII customers wouldn't understand it.

It's going to be a tough gig to make it better than the competition in performance, large enough to have cooling, and still fit the general form-factor of the A7Sii line and customers existing gimbals and other rigging that they'll want to keep using.

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4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Then we enter into the endless debate of what is or isn't a "cinema" camera.....

Actually, I think this question will get easier to answer over time.

It used to be that a cinema camera had lots of features (NDs, dedicated buttons), connections (SDI, XLRs), and high IQ (resolution, codecs, DR, colour science).

So when hybrids got good, it was confusing because they also had much of the high IQ and some of the features.

Once hybrids have all the IQ and features, then it will be down to the connections.  This is as it should be, as no-one is going to run a 20-person crew with a hybrid and rely on the HDMI out - they will pay the extra and get a camera that can integrate into the wider architecture of a professional film-set with multiple monitors showing multiple grades to different people, audio mixing and wireless sends, etc etc.  

If your film set is $20,000/hr then the difference between hiring a $5K camera and a $50k camera is negligible.  Unfortunately the product lines from most manufacturers seem to indicate they are clueless about this.  I don't think they are clueless about it at all, I think it's the middle-managers playing corporate chess for survival coupled with organisational cultural inertia that's the real reason behind it.

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4 hours ago, IronFilm said:


Then we enter into the endless debate of what is or isn't a "cinema" camera.....

 

I consider the Varicam LT, Varicam 35, Sony F5, F55, and Venice, Ursa line, and both C700s cinema bodies (needs to be rigged for use, not ideal for a 1 man band)

C100 - C300mk2, FS5, FS7, and the EVA 1 high end video cameras - ready shoot straight out of the box, all and all you need is a lens. 

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16 hours ago, eyesuncloudedphoto said:

You know what: let's take this one tiny (sic!) step further. 😎

Perhaps it's time for Panasonic to man up and acknowledge the fact that what 99% of their GH5/GH5s customer base really want, is a Panasonic-made BMPCC4K. Meaning a proper small-format cinema camera with enough stills photography features to satisfy certain needs for a cinematographer (i.e. all the basic ones plus timelapse/stop motion animation, etc). They could even get away with using an electronic shutter only and, if global shutter becomes a reality, this is a moot point anyway. They could have IBIS and non-IBIS versions available (5/5S differentiation) with the "S" version perhaps using a multi-aspect Super 35 sensor with enhanced low-light sensitivity. I wouldn't mind the camera becoming bigger, like the BMPCC4K has. 

Getting rid of the "H" (as in "hybrid") element, or, to be more precise, downplaying it in favor of a video-centric  concept will hurt nobody. Let's be honest, if someone really wants a true "hybrid" camera in the Lumix line-up, he has the option of the G9 and soon the S1/S1R will cover this niche in the FF category. 

Which leads into another hypothesis that is slowly becoming relevant: the S1/S1R will not be so much FF versions of the GH5 but rather of the G9. Panasonic will also have to sometime also make a S-camera with heavier video orientation. 

Going back to your proposed future Panasonic lineup:

  • G m43, perhaps with a hi/lo philosophy, as the basic hybrid line
  • GH successor as a proper small-factor cinema camera, with emphasis on video operability while  retaining most of GH5/5s stills capabilities
  • S as FF contenders against Sony and Canonikon with an additional version with heavier emphasis on video including 8K 
  • EVA as pro cinema line, including FF sensor and no-compromise operability 

 

 

I am saying this for years. Let's stop pretendind and create a super video camera on a hybrid form. A dual ISO 35 sensor a la JVC LS300 would be the sensor to end all video sensors!

BM4K solve 2 basic issues with the 5" monitor and the mini xlr, the other - and most important in my opinion is an e-ND and that's it.

That is why a lot of us are so excited about the PK4K, not so much of the specific camera (but still in top of my shopping list for Xmass!), but mainly because is a new type of camera, something a Canon XC camera with an M mount could be, or maybe a Nikon V (stands for video!) could have been, or an advanced H-X1 (that will come, but they have to short a lot of issues). Ibis is not mandatory in such a camera, but definitely an added bonus. 

Let's forget about the S, and produce an F-mini of sorts. The A7iii is good enough for an S camera (low light is almost as good but better hybrid camera).

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5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I am saying this for years. Let's stop pretendind and create a super video camera on a hybrid form. A dual ISO 35 sensor a la JVC LS300 would be the sensor to end all video sensors!

BM4K solve 2 basic issues with the 5" monitor and the mini xlr, the other - and most important in my opinion is an e-ND and that's it.

That is why a lot of us are so excited about the PK4K, not so much of the specific camera (but still in top of my shopping list for Xmass!), but mainly because is a new type of camera, something a Canon XC camera with an M mount could be, or maybe a Nikon V (stands for video!) could have been, or an advanced H-X1 (that will come, but they have to short a lot of issues). Ibis is not mandatory in such a camera, but definitely an added bonus. 

Let's forget about the S, and produce an F-mini of sorts. The A7iii is good enough for an S camera (low light is almost as good but better hybrid camera).

They should of had one of those Mini SDI ports in it also. That type C USB is a disaster waiting to happen.

6 hours ago, kye said:

I agree about size and heat dissipation, but that contradicts the idea that all the cameras in a given lineup had the same body?

It's a strange situation to be in because if they push their video line-up and make a new body (that would obviously be larger due to cooling fans) for it, then it would make sense to use the opportunity for adding things like NDs and other things that take up space and they couldn't before.  If they did that and called it the A7SIII then it would confuse the A7 lineup completely but capture all the PR from the A7SII customers and reputation.  If they decide to slot it into their cinema lineup and call it something like the FS3, then most A7SII customers wouldn't understand it.

It's going to be a tough gig to make it better than the competition in performance, large enough to have cooling, and still fit the general form-factor of the A7Sii line and customers existing gimbals and other rigging that they'll want to keep using.

They have no choice as far as I see it. Even a body the size of a GH5 is not going to be big enough for a FF camera doing Raw in 4K, let alone 8K.  The days of a small video camera are done if they want to add what people are going to demand. This stuff is not going to stop next week. Hell we will have 16K down the road. Unless you want to have a 1080p camera only they are going to get bigger like it or not. They are running into the same problem Laptops are having. Bigger batteries, and bigger fans, bigger cooling tubes needed while the consumer wants a thinner body. Physics dictates that isn't going to happen.

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2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

They should of had one of those Mini SDI ports in it also. That type C USB is a disaster waiting to happen.

They have no choice as far as I see it. Even a body the size of a GH5 is not going to be big enough for a FF camera doing Raw in 4K, let alone 8K.  The days of a small video camera are done if they want to add what people are going to demand. This stuff is not going to stop next week. Hell we will have 16K down the road. Unless you want to have a 1080p camera only they are going to get bigger like it or not. They are running into the same problem Laptops are having. Bigger batteries, and bigger fans, bigger cooling tubes needed while the consumer wants a thinner body. Physics dictates that isn't going to happen.

I agree it will be bigger, but it doesn't have to be huge.

The XC10 has a small 1" sensor and no IBIS, but it does have one internal ND, a fan for cooling and a pretty powerful processor inside, and it's still very compact.

If you compare the XC10 to the RX100 (both 1" sensors) then you can see there's a reasonable size difference:

1909045661_ScreenShot2018-10-20at10_16_18pm.thumb.png.3b4681639624b18c1ed736a359d7c5d0.png

However, if you add that size difference to the A7SII then it still wouldn't result in a terribly large camera:

374852392_ScreenShot2018-10-20at10_14_23pm.thumb.png.13be922f2c489196fa452ec854dd5731.png

312690820_ScreenShot2018-10-20at10_14_58pm.thumb.png.2d61f0e4d41b460855a2649f6e2950f0.png

TBH I think they could do a lot worse than to make it similarly to the XC10 because the ergonomics of that camera are absolutely fantastic (especially note the size of the grip which contains the battery), and it's still really quite small in the grand scheme of things.  Here's the XC10 being dwarfed by the 1DX (which actually is a large camera).  Even if you added the XC10 to the A7SII it would still be smaller!

1936974148_ScreenShot2018-10-20at10_22_58pm.thumb.png.9aa400280fac289fad09ee1b06872ce9.png

 

Of course, in the longer-term, these things will all get smaller too.

Go back in this forum and I'm sure you'll find people talking about 720p cameras and claiming you'd need a tripod to carry the camera that could do 1080 at HFR, and now we have the iPhone and it's 1080p240 and 4K60 in it's sub-$40 camera module!

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23 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I wonder how much space the Sony Electronic ND filter requires versus a mechanical one? I would think less space, but who knows. That one that Kinefinity offers is really not that big. Or is that Red I am thinking about?

It depends on how many NDs you want to put in it.  It might be bigger than a single ND (I'm just guessing tho) but by the time you're saying two or three NDs plus a clear setting, that's got to eat up space surely.

9 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

The XC10 is such a good concept. If only it came with a S35 or FF sensor, interchangeable EF mount and 4K60p.

If they put the A7Sii into the XC10 form-factor then that's basically what it would be!

Of course, the C100 does all that except 4K60.  If they released a C100 mkIII it would be interesting to see what that would look like.

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37 minutes ago, kye said:

It depends on how many NDs you want to put in it.  It might be bigger than a single ND (I'm just guessing tho) but by the time you're saying two or three NDs plus a clear setting, that's got to eat up space surely.

The electronic ones are variable so you only need one filter for the reduction at least, but yes there is a need for a clear one as well.

If you are building it externally (like this DEC one from Aputure built into an EF to MFT adapter) then you will need some electronics to drive it, though bear in mind this one is wireless controllable and also includes the electronics to drive the focus on the lens so the control unit is far bigger than it would be if it was controlled locally.

And If you are building it into the camera then obviously none of that would be necessary.

DECVariimg1.png.a560dacd05a86a84c7171eb0e93c1596.png

The Aputure one has a slide in cartridge for when you need full clear whereas the Sony FS7 does it with a wheel that rotates between the clear and the single variable ND. 

 

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56 minutes ago, kye said:

 

Of course, the C100 does all that except 4K60.  If they released a C100 mkIII it would be interesting to see what that would look like.

Knowing Canon probably 4K30p and no 4K60p. Even with 4K60P, I would not buy it because the camera is too big and heavy. 
XC10 is a smaller package. 

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1 hour ago, kye said:

If they put the A7Sii into the XC10 form-factor then that's basically what it would be!

Of course, the C100 does all that except 4K60.  If they released a C100 mkIII it would be interesting to see what that would look like.

I love the XC form factor, they can make it an M mount camera, and that would be a huge success, combined with the ultra cheap lenses for that mount. And they adapt easily to EF (electronics are the same).

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2 hours ago, wolf33d said:

The XC10 is such a good concept. If only it came with a S35 or FF sensor, interchangeable EF mount and 4K60p.

This is all I am hoping for. An XC10/15 style body with a modern mirrorless mount (preferably X-Mount from Fuji or RF-Mount from Canon) and a Super35/APS-C sensor. For video users, making it a little bigger isn't that big of a deal because I just want something much smaller than my C200. Once you rig up a mirrorless cameras with audio and NDs and everything else you need to make it function like a video camera, it's quite a bit more unwieldy than an XC10 anyway. 

In my opinion, it is close to the perfect size and weight and modularity. It's like a mini C100.

Here's hoping Canon rights a lot of their recent wrongs with an APS-C XC20 with RF Mount + e-ND... Or Fuji steps in instead. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Knowing Canon probably 4K30p and no 4K60p. Even with 4K60P, I would not buy it because the camera is too big and heavy. 
XC10 is a smaller package. 

Yeah.  I keep tossing up between calling this fictional camera an XC20 or a C50 or a C100mk3.  If I asked Canon for an XC20 they would probably keep the fixed lens, if I asked for a C100mk3 then they'd probably not include decent 4K, but the C50 might be the winner because it might get the best of both worlds..

9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I love the XC form factor, they can make it an M mount camera, and that would be a huge success, combined with the ultra cheap lenses for that mount. And they adapt easily to EF (electronics are the same).

 

9 hours ago, currensheldon said:

This is all I am hoping for. An XC10/15 style body with a modern mirrorless mount (preferably X-Mount from Fuji or RF-Mount from Canon) and a Super35/APS-C sensor. For video users, making it a little bigger isn't that big of a deal because I just want something much smaller than my C200. Once you rig up a mirrorless cameras with audio and NDs and everything else you need to make it function like a video camera, it's quite a bit more unwieldy than an XC10 anyway. 

In my opinion, it is close to the perfect size and weight and modularity. It's like a mini C100.

Here's hoping Canon rights a lot of their recent wrongs with an APS-C XC20 with RF Mount + e-ND... Or Fuji steps in instead. 

The "mini C100" concept is great.

Imagine if Canon changed their stripes completely and made a C50 with M-mount, APS-C sensor with IBIS, DIGIC processor giving 4K from 6K downsample, HFR and 10-bit modes, H265 to the SD-card and RAW to the CFast card, with the existing XLR audio module for the XC15.  

Would anyone on here buy a different camera ever again?

Of course, Sony probably wouldn't deliver anything like this either - partly because its in the grey area between their hybrid team and their cine team, and partly because no other company is forcing them to do so.  If Canon released the C50 as described above then it would almost instantly cause all the other camera companies to restructure to either merge their hybrid and cine divisions or create a third one with people from the other teams.

Ah, we can dream....

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6 hours ago, kye said:

 

Imagine if Canon changed their stripes completely and made a C50 with M-mount, APS-C sensor with IBIS, DIGIC processor giving 4K from 6K downsample, HFR and 10-bit modes, H265 to the SD-card and RAW to the CFast card, with the existing XLR audio module for the XC15.  

 

I think that spec or something very close to it may appear sooner than you think.

I don't think they will call it the C50 though as Fuji are far more likely to call it the X-H2 ;)

When you look at what they have put in the X-T3 then they are obviously going to have to top that for the more video oriented X-H1 successor and I think that might be more than just IBIS....

 

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8 hours ago, kye said:

Imagine if Canon changed their stripes completely and made a C50 with M-mount, APS-C sensor with IBIS, DIGIC processor giving 4K from 6K downsample, HFR and 10-bit modes, H265 to the SD-card and RAW to the CFast card, with the existing XLR audio module for the XC15.  

 


And what if unicorns farted rainbows of gold?

The only think you can count on Canon doing is disappointing you.

 

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