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Andrew Reid

There will be a Sony A7S II successor. The bad news is - "it will take time"

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Only reason is postponed is that SONY thinks they don't really have competition now. Well they do. But again - A7S II is insanely good camera. Only things I'm missing is high speed sensor like A9 to minimize rolling shutter.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

So much for SAR's A7SIII and A7000 gonna be released anytime sooon before the photokina stuff, now pretty much everything will be released from next year.  There wont be major Sony announcement for the reminder of this year for sure.

 

and wolf33d's A7SIII gonna be released one month after GH5 release thread is a good laugh for me everytime 🤣

 

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16 hours ago, frontfocus said:

I think they have the A7S III ready. I think they had it ready a year ago. The A9 has a sensor very similar to the venice, so give it a firmwareupdate and allow for 4K 60p and 10 bit and that's it. 
Of course Sony will not do that, they want to milk their customers and offer another camera just for video. 
The part of the interview where I laughed the most was, when he said they care for their customers. lol 

"Unless this has been lost in translation, the A7S III is going to be a minimum of 2 years away."

It's not a translation issue.. Think marketing formulated disinformation...

Although, a graph/trajectory of A7SII sales might inform..

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5 hours ago, eyesuncloudedphoto said:

This makes total sense IMO. The GH5 is still untouchable feature-wise, among hybrid cameras. What is perhaps needed is focusing on the video side of things even more, offering advanced features not found in anything sort of a "proper" cinema camera. Internal ND, for instance. Internal RAW and/or Prores. Perhaps the first application of global shutter? A number of things are easier and more economical to implement with a smaller sensor. 

I couldn't agree more. Sensor development and feature additions in the M43 space still has a long way to go. It's easier to downres a 20MP M43 than a 40+MP Full Frame. Also the dynamic range difference between APS-C and M43 is miniscule (except for a handful of Nikon camera which is also in the 1-stop improvement range). The VLog and Dynamic Range in video have still need a lot of improvement. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Is it still their strongest advantage if they keep giving their best sensors to the competition?

Actually the exact specifications of sensors only come out when Sony starts making them em mass. Plus even the same sensor can have many versions depending upon things like PDAF and the total number of PDAF Points, dual or multiple ISO etc. I could be wrong, but I think the sole reason Panasonic Cameras do not have PDAF is due to the fact that Sony believes (rightly so) that they will cut into the Sony Market and have thus not licenced them. 

 

5 hours ago, jonpais said:

Maybe this just happens to me, but every time I buy a camera, it’s obsolete in six months.

Pick an Alexa and a Red Weapon. They had it coming. 😂😂😂

 

Sony is looking at the competition and wants to make a camera that adds just a little more bang for the buck or does something that nobody else does in the FF Mirrorless Video space. I am also questing that the A7iii has put tremendous pressure on everyone including itself regarding price. So pricing of the S1 will determine how Sony plans this one. They can't appear to have no price advantage. If the GH5 has usable ISO upto 12800 and just 1 stop more video dynamic range, the A7s series would have become a dinosaur.  

 

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In my opinion, I'm glad they haven't released the A7sIII. Otherwise, this post would be about how the camera falls short in comparison to other cameras.

For me, the delay means they know that they need to keep improving to maintain market growth and they don't want to release an outdated camera.
If they were Canon I am sure the camera would be out already and would not address the technological expectations costumers have for it (10bit 4k 60p)

They have been delivering great products at a very fast rate these last years. The a7III is still a very new and good option for anyone looking into buying a FF camera. 

Better late than sorry, no?

 

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The biggest problem that Sony Alpha has,....is Sony XDCAM.

Its going to be politically hard for the Alpha folks to add 10bit, 4k, 60p, 400mbp/s internal recording with no recording limit to a new A7S-III. This is what they will probably face with a Panny S1 competition at NAB 2019. If Apha does this, XDCAM managers with scream bloody blue murder to the highest Sony executives. XDCAM does NOT want a Sony camera like this to exisr for fear that it would cannibalize far more expensive camcorder models.

Actually, Im certain our favorite Panny EVA1 manager is very nervous about the idea of a fully loaded FF Panny S1 under his EVA1 either. (No, he has never actually told me this)

Guys,...this huge shift we are seeing in the industry scares a lot of marketing execs and is probably making everybody scramble to try and figure out how to fight each other without stabbing themselves in the process!

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9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Hopefully the FF mirrorless means that Panasonic will not make the GH series 8K for many years yet to come. 

As I'd much rather they just make the GHx each release be the best best possible 4K camera it can be!

To ensure a smooth (ish) upgrade progression path then the EVA1 has to be a MFT mount (or at least the new L mount) in the future. 

The release cycles indicate the G series is next in line to get an update, with the G85 successor coming next? I do hope it doesn't get skipped over and forgotten about. As I feel the G series is the sweet spot to buy for many people, especially for new comers to join and grow the system.

One of the ways that I like to think about it is in terms of "tiers".

For the average Joe, a G85 might take pride of place in their setup as an A camera.  Their GoPro that used to be their A-cam might then be the tiny / crash cam in their setup.
For some, a GH camera might be your A-cam with a G camera being your B-camera, perhaps if you're shooting weddings for instance and need backup angles for coverage and don't need GH quality across the whole kit.
For others still, the EVA (or 8K S1?) might be their A-camera and the G or even GH camera lines might only be crash cameras.

What I like about this is that is provides a range of cameras with increasing features and IQ that many people can use for whatever scale, budget and IQ is appropriate for their project.

In terms of the new lens mount and 8K, do they go together?  I'm not sure of the resolution of existing Panny lenses, but the new mount would be a sensible time to mandate a minimum level of sharpness.  8K video has more pixels than most still cameras, so I'd imagine the vast majority of lenses will be at risk of falling short.  If that's true, then MFT lens only have to be 4K and 8K lenses are the new mount.  That keeps it simple for consumers and would help explain why the new lenses might cost a lot.

9 hours ago, eyesuncloudedphoto said:

This makes total sense IMO. The GH5 is still untouchable feature-wise, among hybrid cameras. What is perhaps needed is focusing on the video side of things even more, offering advanced features not found in anything sort of a "proper" cinema camera. Internal ND, for instance. Internal RAW and/or Prores. Perhaps the first application of global shutter? A number of things are easier and more economical to implement with a smaller sensor. 

Agreed.  Having the GH line firmly in the "small sensor but large body with many buttons" camp, there's room for things like internal NDs and other circuitry required for RAW recording and associated cooling etc.  Panasonic seem to pride themselves at offering lots of new things into the market with the GH line and there's no reason why they can't continue that trend.  8K might be coming, but the excitement around the BMPCC4K proved that interest in high quality 4K is anything but dead.

9 hours ago, jonpais said:

Maybe this just happens to me, but every time I buy a camera, it’s obsolete in six months.

Tell me about it.  I bought an XC10 and just upgraded to a GH5!

28 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

The biggest problem that Sony Alpha has,....is Sony XDCAM.

Its going to be politically hard for the Alpha folks to add 10bit, 4k, 60p, 400mbp/s internal recording with no recording limit to a new A7S-III. This is what they will probably face with a Panny S1 competition at NAB 2019. If Apha does this, XDCAM managers with scream bloody blue murder to the highest Sony executives. XDCAM does NOT want a Sony camera like this to exisr for fear that it would cannibalize far more expensive camcorder models.

Actually, Im certain our favorite Panny EVA1 manager is very nervous about the idea of a fully loaded FF Panny S1 under his EVA1 either. (No, he has never actually told me this)

Guys,...this huge shift we are seeing in the industry scares a lot of marketing execs and is probably making everybody scramble to try and figure out how to fight each other without stabbing themselves in the process!

This is the nature of technology conversion.  The reason they're all touchy about overlapping product lines is that in the end there will only be one or two product lines and the process to get there will involve almost everyone losing their job.

We all talk about convergence like it's the GH5 vs the BMPCC4K, but if you think longer term it's about the death of entire product categories.

smartphone-replaced.jpg

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7 hours ago, dslnc said:

All pure speculating. But since it is Sonys premium handheld vidoe shooter. 4:2:2 10bit slog2/3 at a high bit rate internally is the minimum expected plus a sdi out in 10 bit allowing for prores raw/ raw recording with an external recorder. Internal NDs maybe.
 

Sounds like a Sony FS5.

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11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

My bet is on a GH6 having built in NDs (I feel like this though is unlikely, but is still the most likely stills camera in 2019 which might have NDs). Because Panasonic always has been pushing the video tech forward the best in their stills cameras. 

And as full frame mirrorless builds up steam and catches up, this is the best way the GH line up can make another big leap ahead and stay on the throne as a #1 choice for videographers. 

Honestly, I'd love to use smaller cameras with IBIS for all my work. But still end up using Canon C100/200/300 because of internal NDs and high-quality audio. It just doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to add NDs into mirrorless cameras (look at what the FS5/7 can do). if the GH6 (or my hope, the X-H2) did add NDs + have a slightly higher quality XLR adapter, it would be a no brainer. Sony and Canon are a bit hamstrung because of their cinema lines, but Fuji is free to do whatever they want there (with the best Super35mm lenses in the business and linear focusing to boot). Panasonic also seem to be willing because they'll throw everything they can into a product. 

The best thing the EOS R has going for it, in my opinion, is that variable ND adapter - really cool solution if you want to use EF lenses (which you kind of have to at this point still). 

 

 

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a7S III was overdue over a year ago, but they felt the need to voice their plans only now. What changed?

a7S III was ready for production (not just concept-design stage) about last year and awaiting competition for price adjustment. "We are thinking about making one" is probably just to disprove this suspicion.

Competition did something (or is about to do something) that required redesign of a7S III and it's no longer about waiting game, which they lost.

My thoughts are: they have a superior a7S III version designed for scenario like this, but production is not ready. It takes about 5 to 9 months to set up a production on a large scale if it's for key elements (sensor, CPU etc.). There is no way they issue a statement about the camera that is nowhere near this stage. So I'd expect it no later than within a year, may be even announcement at NAB.

I wish Canon would come up with a Pro RF-mount body by then so we have more FF options to choose from by the time Sony shows a7S successor.

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40 minutes ago, kye said:

Agreed.  Having the GH line firmly in the "small sensor but large body with many buttons" camp, there's room for things like internal NDs and other circuitry required for RAW recording and associated cooling etc.  Panasonic seem to pride themselves at offering lots of new things into the market with the GH line and there's no reason why they can't continue that trend.  8K might be coming, but the excitement around the BMPCC4K proved that interest in high quality 4K is anything but dead.

You know what: let's take this one tiny (sic!) step further. 😎

Perhaps it's time for Panasonic to man up and acknowledge the fact that what 99% of their GH5/GH5s customer base really want, is a Panasonic-made BMPCC4K. Meaning a proper small-format cinema camera with enough stills photography features to satisfy certain needs for a cinematographer (i.e. all the basic ones plus timelapse/stop motion animation, etc). They could even get away with using an electronic shutter only and, if global shutter becomes a reality, this is a moot point anyway. They could have IBIS and non-IBIS versions available (5/5S differentiation) with the "S" version perhaps using a multi-aspect Super 35 sensor with enhanced low-light sensitivity. I wouldn't mind the camera becoming bigger, like the BMPCC4K has. 

Getting rid of the "H" (as in "hybrid") element, or, to be more precise, downplaying it in favor of a video-centric  concept will hurt nobody. Let's be honest, if someone really wants a true "hybrid" camera in the Lumix line-up, he has the option of the G9 and soon the S1/S1R will cover this niche in the FF category. 

Which leads into another hypothesis that is slowly becoming relevant: the S1/S1R will not be so much FF versions of the GH5 but rather of the G9. Panasonic will also have to sometime also make a S-camera with heavier video orientation. 

Going back to your proposed future Panasonic lineup:

  • G m43, perhaps with a hi/lo philosophy, as the basic hybrid line
  • GH successor as a proper small-factor cinema camera, with emphasis on video operability while  retaining most of GH5/5s stills capabilities
  • S as FF contenders against Sony and Canonikon with an additional version with heavier emphasis on video including 8K 
  • EVA as pro cinema line, including FF sensor and no-compromise operability 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Fun fact: Your smartphone is millions of times more powerful than all of NASA’s combined computing in 1969 (which were good enough to guide a spaceship to the moon and back).

If they'd used mine to guide them then they'd still be up there circling it, doing U turns, having to traverse small streams and being unable to find the nearest ATM.

1 hour ago, kye said:

smartphone-replaced.jpg

Note he's got three different Walkmans there as even then Sony wouldn't put all the features he needed in just one ;)

 

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1 hour ago, eyesuncloudedphoto said:

Going back to your proposed future Panasonic lineup:

  • G m43, perhaps with a hi/lo philosophy, as the basic hybrid line
  • GH successor as a proper small-factor cinema camera, with emphasis on video operability while  retaining most of GH5/5s stills capabilities
  • S as FF contenders against Sony and Canonikon with an additional version with heavier emphasis on video including 8K 
  • EVA as pro cinema line, including FF sensor and no-compromise operability 

 

 

To be fair, the EVA 1 isn't even a Cinema camera just like the Sony FS and Canon C100 - C300 line, its a high end video camera.

Varicam LT and Varicam 35 are Panasonic's true cinema line cameras. 

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4 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

To be fair, the EVA 1 isn't even a Cinema camera just like the Sony FS and Canon C100 - C300 line, its a high end video camera.

Varicam LT and Varicam 35 are Panasonic's true cinema line cameras. 

Of course..  that makes the list something like:

  • G m43, perhaps with a hi/lo philosophy, as the basic hybrid line
  • GH successor as a proper small-factor cinema camera, with emphasis on video operability while  retaining most of GH5/5s stills capabilities
  • S as FF contenders against Sony and Canonikon with 8K  ---OR--- EVA as 4K with much larger form factor with dedicated buttons etc
  • Varicam as pro cinema line, including FF sensor and no-compromise operability

Even if we started to add their fixed lens cameras below the G series, their entire lineup would still make sense and be useful to almost all film-makers who need A-cam / B-cam / crash-cam options.

This clean hierarchy really doesn't seem to be common amongst the other manufacturers, who completely ignore parts of the market, or have large gaps in IQ between their consumer cams and professional cinema lines.

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5 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Guys,...this huge shift we are seeing in the industry scares a lot of marketing execs and is probably making everybody scramble to try and figure out how to fight each other without stabbing themselves in the process!

I think this statement is at the heart of what we’re seeing right now in the marketplace. Sony is NOT releasing a new camera every 6 months like they have in the past. The mirrorless marketplace has changed and in full frame it’s never been more competitive. ALL of the full frame mirrorless manufacturers are jockeying for position against each other AND in some cases internally within their own corporate structure. It’s near impossible to predict the future and how the full frame mirrorless video/still/hybrid camera landscape will look in the next year or two. Whether there is a new A7s lll sooner or later or never doesn’t really matter...because the marketplace is changing so fast. The hot camera today can easily become the not-so-hot camera tomorrow. What matters is that manufacturers remain innovative for the long term and keep imaging technology moving forward. Complacency is corporate cancer and more than one camera manufacturer is likely to disappear from the marketplace if they can’t correct their myopic corporate vision. 

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11 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Honestly, I'd love to use smaller cameras with IBIS for all my work. But still end up using Canon C100/200/300 because of internal NDs and high-quality audio. It just doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to add NDs into mirrorless cameras (look at what the FS5/7 can do). if the GH6 (or my hope, the X-H2) did add NDs + have a slightly higher quality XLR adapter, it would be a no brainer. Sony and Canon are a bit hamstrung because of their cinema lines, but Fuji is free to do whatever they want there (with the best Super35mm lenses in the business and linear focusing to boot). Panasonic also seem to be willing because they'll throw everything they can into a product. 


The audio adapters are indeed handy, not so much just for the more study XLR inputs, but for having direct access to manual knobs to change things on the fly rather than digging into menus. As any solo shooter doing audio too needs all the help he can get to help make audio management quick and easy to adjust. 

 

11 hours ago, eyesuncloudedphoto said:
  • G m43, perhaps with a hi/lo philosophy, as the basic hybrid line
  • GH successor as a proper small-factor cinema camera, with emphasis on video operability while  retaining most of GH5/5s stills capabilities

Yes, go hard with the GH series (but still keeping basic photography functions, as after all many videographers like to do time lapses / stop motion as well). 

Especially if the Gx series is now going to target photographers will keeping damn decently good video too. (i.e. the G9) But keep also this high/low variation of the G series with a low end Gxx (i.e. G85) to keep on attracting in new customers to the ecosystem with an affordable entry point to MFT. 

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