Photokina 2018 Part 1: Panasonic S1 and S1R full frame 4K/60p and Fujifilm GFX 100MP 4K Medium Format. WOW!

[nigelbb]

12 hours ago, Nodnarb said:

When the GH4 launched in 2014, Panasonic "obviously" had faith in their autofocus system. Yet when it came to video, the CDAF looked pretty bad compared to the PDAF on the 70D, NX1, and a6000. The GH4 was a fantastic camera, but it was clear back then that Panasonic needed to include PDAF if they wanted to achieve good video autofocus. So in 2017 when the GH5 was realeased, a lot of people were disappointed that PDAF was again missing from the specs. Panasonic "obviously" had faith in their autofocus system, but real world usage found the GH5's "Advanced CDAF" was still not as good as the PDAF in some 3 year old cameras, much less some of the latest models from other manufacturers.

Now in 2018 with Canon, Nikon, Sony and Fuji all producing cams with really good video autofocus using PDAF, I think it's easy to see why critics are disappointed that PDAF will again be missing from Panasonic's next generation of cameras come 2019.

Since when did video AF become a deal breaker? Whatever happened to the idea that real men used manual lenses?

[sanveer]

25 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

The Leica used to include a free full version of Lightroom. And since Adobe pulled the plug it now includes 3 free months. So there is at least a little more value than just the design. 

(BTW, I hate that the support by Adobe for Lightroom has ended. Now I have to include the price of a subscription when buying a late 2018 or newer camera. Unless its a true Leica, Sigma or Pentax which of course shoots DNGs.)

The support for Adobe Lightroom ending is pretty bad I guess. I find it amazing that Blackmagic gives you the Resolve for life, including every update possible.

 

57 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Unspoken agreement between the two companies to make the S1 as large clunky and homely as humanly possible so consumers would happily pay the premium for the Leica.

Ridiculous argument. The S1 is based on the Panasonic G9 design language, with the chassis of the Leica SL. You obviously buy cameras based purely on looks. 

[jonpais]

Yes Sanveer, that’s why I’ve owned five Panasonics.

[sanveer]

8 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Yes Sanveer, that’s why I’ve owned five Panasonics.

Maybe you have them with Tiffany and LV badges and skins ???

[Yurolov]

They say the 100 mp fuji will only be 4:2:0 10 bit internal  I think fuji are intentionally leaving out that 2 for an xh2. Just my 2 cents. 

[hmcindie]

1 hour ago, nigelbb said:

Since when did video AF become a deal breaker? Whatever happened to the idea that real men used manual lenses?

When people started using gimbals with no focus mechanism. Also when they started doing dolly push-ins with one man crews.

[Kisaha]

..and 100 years ago we didn't have synced sound. Good - and specialized- video AF will be, maybe already is, a huge selling point.

I am a believer.

I may buy a P4K as a mini specialized video camera, but from my main system I would like top performing AF.

 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

4 hours ago, nigelbb said:

Since when did video AF become a deal breaker? Whatever happened to the idea that real men used manual lenses?

If a men need manual lenses to feel real, AF is not the problem.

On 9/26/2018 at 6:11 AM, sanveer said:

There seems to be something terribly curious about the Panasonic S Range.

Like someone pointed here, or somewhere else, Panasonic disclosed very few feature of the GH5, when it first announced its development. This appears to be the case with the S Series too. Except the Megapixel count and the other usual Panasonic features (IBIS, 4k, DFD etc), everything else seems to be suspect (including dynamic range, fps etc).

I guess we will have to wait about 6 months to get the entire feature set. On video alone, I am getting it will lead the FF wolf pack. Though the guys incharge of continuous autofocus and its feature set (DFD), should be thrown out. Right away, before he and his team do more harm. 

Waiting game.

In Formula 1 racing, sometimes the teams keep waiting (and even faking) the moment of tyre change to try to get the opponent of guard and gain an advantage. In this case, I think that Panasonic is clearly waiting to see what Sony will bring to the A7SIII, and release the S cameras with the exactly set to compete or beat it - and hopefully (for them) not going too far and robbing EVA1 buyers.

I also think that the kind of huge size of the S cameras is exactly go crazy in video specs if they needed large heat dissipation - if not need, they could use the handling excuse. I'm not buying the 70%-30% video using - Panasonic should know that their strong point over the others is superior video performance. Already stating 4K60 is another hint in that direction.

[sanveer]

48 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

If a men need manual lenses to feel real, AF is not the problem.

Waiting game.

In Formula 1 racing, sometimes the teams keep waiting (and even faking) the moment of tyre change to try to get the opponent of guard and gain an advantage. In this case, I think that Panasonic is clearly waiting to see what Sony will bring to the A7SIII, and release the S cameras with the exactly set to compete or beat it - and hopefully (for them) not going too far and robbing EVA1 buyers.

I also think that the kind of huge size of the S cameras is exactly go crazy in video specs if they needed large heat dissipation - if not need, they could use the handling excuse. I'm not buying the 70%-30% video using - Panasonic should know that their strong point over the others is superior video performance. Already stating 4K60 is another hint in that direction.

Exactly my thoughts. The size is because unlike the BMPCC4k, this doesn't HAVE fans for heat dissipation because it has go be weather sealed. It does this by having a Huge heat sink as well as way better processing.

I also believe that Panasonic is keenly watching the A7Siii (as well as others before the specs are finalised) for what all specs to finalise. They may have the megapixel and video bit depth advantage over the Sony. Dynamic Range may be similar and the Sony may be better by 1-2 stops in low light video. If Panasonic can't bring autofocus to PDAF levels, that may be the biggest weakness on this.

Also like on the Nikon Z Series (which I think I may agree with Tony Northup's about the Panasonic and Nikon sharing the same sensors), there will be 2 distinct models, one with a slightly greater emphasis on photo (S1R) and the other on video (S1). While Nikon has, like Canon handicapped the whole thing with emphasis on size and having a single SD Card (apart from smaller battery and no internal 4-2-2 codec), Panasonic is keeping the bulk for adding a lot of great features. 

There must be some politics of features in ILCs (like regarding the PDAF), wherein Panasonic is being barred from having PDAF on their cameras, and both Panasonic and Sony are mum about the real reasons for it.

[Shield3]

7 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

The Leica used to include a free full version of Lightroom. And since Adobe pulled the plug it now includes 3 free months. So there is at least a little more value than just the design. 

(BTW, I hate that the support by Adobe for Lightroom has ended. Now I have to include the price of a subscription when buying a late 2018 or newer camera. Unless its a true Leica, Sigma or Pentax which of course shoots DNGs.)

Adobe is killing Lightroom?  Do you have a link for the changes?  Or just Lightroom classic?

[Dan Sherman]

8 hours ago, nigelbb said:

Since when did video AF become a deal breaker? Whatever happened to the idea that real men used manual lenses?

This is what happens when you have to many hipsters running around calling themselves professionals! 

[Emanuel]

21 hours ago, Kisaha said:

..and 100 years ago we didn't have synced sound. Good - and specialized- video AF will be, maybe already is, a huge selling point.

I am a believer.

I may buy a P4K as a mini specialized video camera, but from my main system I would like top performing AF.

 

You don't track focus on your upcoming P4K but you'll be able to push AF focus anyway ; -)

[Mattias Burling]

19 hours ago, Shield3 said:

Adobe is killing Lightroom?  Do you have a link for the changes?  Or just Lightroom classic?

Its for classic, forcing me to start a subscription if I buy a new, non-leica/sigma/pentax camera.

[Kisaha]

3 hours ago, Emanuel said:

You don't track focus on your upcoming P4K but you'll be able to push AF focus anyway ; -)

The only AF I am using (rather seldomly to be honest) is touch AF (NX cameras, Canon C) and it is a great tool to use. I haven't seen any P4K AF videos yet!

[John Jay]

On 9/27/2018 at 2:10 PM, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

and hopefully (for them) not going too far and robbing EVA1 buyers.

I don’t get this. Panasonic sell tiny numbers of EVA1, and their market share in mirrorless is tiny,  so you saying Panasonic need to discourage people buying the S1 to protect the EVA1 which is in a totally different category?

If this S1 isn’t going to be a complete niche flop Panasonic need to go balls out with everything they’ve got to get even 1% of Sony FF business. 

[jonpais]

Any mfr can try to protect their higher end products, whether it’s their cinema cameras or flagship DSLRs; but now with six or more players in the FF mirrorless game, each with two or more cameras either planned or in production; with an ecosystem each of anywhere from thirty native lenses and dozens of third party options to hundreds of legacy lenses and adapters; if any cut corners, (and some somewhat foolishly already have!), another one will happily step in to fill the void. Even the a6500 outperforms in several key areas the sensors of some cinema cameras.

So holding back is no longer an option - whether it’s C-AF, burst rate, ergonomics, buffer speed, 4K 60p, user interface, 10-bit, battery life, IBIS, codec, low light sensitivity, eye detect AF, etc. And that includes sharing the mount - I could hardly restrain a sigh when a Voigtlander representative at Photokina 2018 was asked whether they’d be designing lenses for the new Nikon and Canon systems, only to answer that it would depend on the patent situation. Say what you will about Sony or Panasonic, but Voigtlander’s e mount and mft mount lenses are incredible. Everyone owes it to themselves to shoot with one at some point.

I agree with @Robert Collins - the lack of a filmmaker ambassador at the Panasonic announcement (either a serious oversight or an indication of what’s in store), coupled with fuzzy mystery specs (and CDAF) does not exactly inspire confidence, particularly for videographers - which can only be considered to have been a grave omission.

The S1 and lens lineup look pretty huge (ie, physically imposing), which might be great for those coming from DSLRs, not so hot for someone like me who’s used to flying a budget gimbal. The Sigma L- mount lenses would for that reason alone be a non-starter as far as I’m concerned, cost be damned. 

[androidlad]

Fujirumor did an interview with Fujifilm manager and he said GFX100MP will use full sensor readout for 4K, no line-skipping or pixel binning. That's a whopping 11664 x 6561 readout from the 4:3 sensor! With over 3x supersampling the images would be clean af!

[webrunner5]

35 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Fujirumor did an interview with Fujifilm manager and he said GFX100MP will use full sensor readout for 4K, no line-skipping or pixel binning. That's a whopping 11664 x 6561 readout from the 4:3 sensor! With over 3x supersampling the images would be clean af!

Wow that sounds almost impossible heat wise in a camera that size??

[thebrothersthre3]

Auto focus becomes relevant when it can replace manual focus and be cheaper and easier. Its how technology works. Why walk when you can drive. 

[Emanuel]

15 hours ago, Kisaha said:

The only AF I am using (rather seldomly to be honest) is touch AF (NX cameras, Canon C) and it is a great tool to use. I haven't seen any P4K AF videos yet!

Exactly my cup of tea. Random AF is rather frightening BTW, even though I concur makes some sense for gimbal use...

And here's some teaser to you ; -)