hoodlum Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 It looks like Apple finally provided a major upgrade to it's main camera. The sensor size was increased from 1/3" (used since the 5s) to 1/2.55" which is similar to most android phones, while keeping the lens aperture at f1.8. They also mentioned the sensor is twice as fast as the previous iphone X, which should improve quality of the 4k and slo-mo. Apple has a new "Smart HDR" mode which brings a few photos of different exposure together. The way it does that is constantly shoot a four-frame buffer, with different exposures, so that the second you hit the shutter lens, it’s already got all the information it needs for a full HDR image. This is just the start of the computational race as the AI engine becomes the main focus going forward. Apple's Neural engine went from 2 cores to 8 cores with an 8 times increase in processing power. I could see this processor overtaking the main processor and GPU over the next few years. It doesn't look like the telephoto camera was updated which begs the question if it is really needed. The wide angle sensor has a one stop faster lens and the 1/3.6" sensor from the telephoto is likely almost 1 stop worse. I am not even sure if the HDR mode is available with the Telephoto lens. Cropping from the wide angle camera may give similar result to the telephoto camera, which make the XR a good choice if you are only interested in the camera upgrade. The XR only looses OLED screen (Liquid Retina LCD instead) and telephoto camera. This major upgrade was long over due. Apple has done well with their previous substandard sensor so I am looking forward to the reviews over the coming weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurijTurnsek Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 So, it is now on par with Google's Pixel phones? I agree that super-fast HDR is a way better approach than the additional monochrome sensor approach that Huawei is pushing (I have seen no real benefit from that approach and I check the IQ of each new Huawei phone). With super-fast bracketing you can get either HDR in most static shots and multiple frame noise reduction in low-light. I am disappointed that the MAX model does not have three camera modules (a super wide angle is missing) and going by the leaks of the upcoming V40 it will be the first to have all three focal lengths, but behind smaller sensors (and a feeble 3300mah battery). Huawei is supposedly sticking to the same sensor configuration of the P20 for the new Mate series, which is unfortunate. Overprocessing galore. So I have high hopes for the S10, which is rumored to some with three camera modules and they typically use larger sensors than LG, hence the class-leading IQ. If only they could add some sort of super-fast HDR (it does multi-shot in S8 and S9, but the results are not as impressive as the Pixels). If only Samsung could ditch the unnecessary curved screens - rumors point to a basic S10 with a flat screen, but only two camera modules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted September 13, 2018 Administrators Share Posted September 13, 2018 The great thing about the P20 and P20 Pro is the DNG RAW. You bypass the over processing and get 7K raw files to play with... IN-PHONE. Switch the camera app to Pro mode and download the app Polarr. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoodlum Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 5 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said: So, it is now on par with Google's Pixel phones? I agree that super-fast HDR is a way better approach than the additional monochrome sensor approach that Huawei is pushing (I have seen no real benefit from that approach and I check the IQ of each new Huawei phone). With super-fast bracketing you can get either HDR in most static shots and multiple frame noise reduction in low-light. I am disappointed that the MAX model does not have three camera modules (a super wide angle is missing) and going by the leaks of the upcoming V40 it will be the first to have all three focal lengths, but behind smaller sensors (and a feeble 3300mah battery). Huawei is supposedly sticking to the same sensor configuration of the P20 for the new Mate series, which is unfortunate. Overprocessing galore. So I have high hopes for the S10, which is rumored to some with three camera modules and they typically use larger sensors than LG, hence the class-leading IQ. If only they could add some sort of super-fast HDR (it does multi-shot in S8 and S9, but the results are not as impressive as the Pixels). If only Samsung could ditch the unnecessary curved screens - rumors point to a basic S10 with a flat screen, but only two camera modules. These new features do remind me of my Google Pixel and based on past experience I expect Apple to implement it well. I never understood the desire for the telephoto lens if we are giving up so much in sensor area and lens speed. Also, some of the more advanced photo features are only available with the main camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoodlum Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 I came across these details on how the Camera HDR works. Maybe we see this implemented for video one day. https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a23107145/iphone-xs-xr-photos-camera-depth-control-smart-hdr/ iPhone users will have noticed a tag on photos that says "HDR" —it means High Dynamic Range, a process where, when you press the shutter button, the phone captures several frames simultaneously, then merges elements from each one into a single image (a good shadow from one, skin texture from another). The new Smart HDR captures four frames, plus four more in between those frames at a different exposure. The iPhone will also take a separate long-exposure to grab bright color elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoodlum Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 I did see one comment where Extended Dynamic Range is provided in video up to 30fps. I have not seen any details on how this is accomplished. There are also now 4 mics that record stereo in video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 8:04 AM, hoodlum said: It looks like Apple finally provided a major upgrade to it's main camera. The sensor size was increased from 1/3" (used since the 5s) to 1/2.55" which is similar to most android phones, while keeping the lens aperture at f1.8. They also mentioned the sensor is twice as fast as the previous iphone X, which should improve quality of the 4k and slo-mo. Apple has a new "Smart HDR" mode which brings a few photos of different exposure together. The way it does that is constantly shoot a four-frame buffer, with different exposures, so that the second you hit the shutter lens, it’s already got all the information it needs for a full HDR image. This is just the start of the computational race as the AI engine becomes the main focus going forward. Apple's Neural engine went from 2 cores to 8 cores with an 8 times increase in processing power. I could see this processor overtaking the main processor and GPU over the next few years. It doesn't look like the telephoto camera was updated which begs the question if it is really needed. The wide angle sensor has a one stop faster lens and the 1/3.6" sensor from the telephoto is likely almost 1 stop worse. I am not even sure if the HDR mode is available with the Telephoto lens. Cropping from the wide angle camera may give similar result to the telephoto camera, which make the XR a good choice if you are only interested in the camera upgrade. The XR only looses OLED screen (Liquid Retina LCD instead) and telephoto camera. This major upgrade was long over due. Apple has done well with their previous substandard sensor so I am looking forward to the reviews over the coming weeks. Nothing really worth writing home about to be honest. The changes are way too minor. And the iPhones benchmarks (mildly improved this time to be fair), are so exaggerated, one would think they can replace desktop PCs. The least they could have done is introduced 3 cameras or had a 48MP and a 12MP one. Btw they haveost likely picked up the Sensor from the S8 of S9 (the pixel size, autofocus pixel and other defences give it away). After Steve Jobs, Apple's innovation has greatly slowed down. I think 2019 may be a very exciting year for smartphones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurijTurnsek Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 With multiple cameras, it really pays to read in-depth reviews - most headline features only make it into the main sensor. Just goes to show how flexible the ILC concept really is. However, no ILC lens will ever offer a FF eqiv. 18-50mm zoom (like Nikon tried and failed to offer with their 1" line). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeys Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 2 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said: 18-50mm zoom (like Nikon tried and failed to offer with their 1" line) Too soon, man, too soon. I was looking forward to that one so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inazuma Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Have Apple lost their minds with this naming scheme? They want the "X" to be pronounced "10" but the S and R to be pronounced as the letters. So you might at first think the XS means "extra small", or "excess" but in fact it's pronounced "10-ess" which means nothing! And why did they release the 9 and the 10 at the same time? What happens when they release the 11? Will it be cheaper than the 10? Jesus ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted September 16, 2018 Super Members Share Posted September 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Inazuma said: But in fact it's pronounced "10-ess" which means nothing! Sounds like what Andy Murray would have a game of in Cardiff. Inazuma 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castorp Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 The cameras in the new iPhones look really good. I’ve always found Apple’s AWB head and shoulders above anyone else’s (phones and camera makers) as well as superior colour science. Pretty excited about computing playing a larger role in photography. I feel camera makers are really dragging their feet introducing software correction and augmentation. They’re still seem stuck to the idea of analogue correction in lenses. Also excited about DOF simulation becoming really good in the latest iPhones. Means camera makers will have to find other ways to improve. Soon it won’t be possible to tell a “professional” camera from a phone from looking at de-focus in an image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Collins Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 48 minutes ago, Castorp said: The cameras in the new iPhones look really good. I’ve always found Apple’s AWB head and shoulders above anyone else’s (phones and camera makers) as well as superior colour science. Pretty excited about computing playing a larger role in photography. I feel camera makers are really dragging their feet introducing software correction and augmentation. They’re still seem stuck to the idea of analogue correction in lenses. Also excited about DOF simulation becoming really good in the latest iPhones. Means camera makers will have to find other ways to improve. Soon it won’t be possible to tell a “professional” camera from a phone from looking at de-focus in an image. That's one way of looking at it. Although as the latest iphone XS max starts at US$1150 and Sony is rumored to be bringing out a FF camera for under US$1500 - it wont be long before it wont be possible to tell a 'professional' camera from a phone by looking at its 'price'!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted September 17, 2018 Super Members Share Posted September 17, 2018 You get a used A7 + lens + a capable Honor 8 Smartphone + A cold beer or two for the price of a new iPhone. I know which I rather have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castorp Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 True. But a smartphone is a lot more than a camera. So which gadget provides the most value could be debated. The best camera is the one you have with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Collins Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, Castorp said: True. But a smartphone is a lot more than a camera. So which gadget provides the most value could be debated. The best camera is the one you have with you. Sure. Noone would disagree that a phone offers far more functionality than any camera. 'But it occurs to me that the major 'delta' between a US$500 phone and a US$1200 phone is usually sold pretty much based on the camera. By that I mean it has been a long time since someone said I bought an iphone over an oppo because its mobile calls have much better reception or it has higher data internet speeds or even much better screen/processor speed/speakers/battery etc.. Premium phones are pretty much sold on the back of their cameras these days -with the likes of Samsung Note 9, Huawei P20 Pro, Pixel 2 or Iphone all claiming to be the bestest in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castorp Posted September 17, 2018 Share Posted September 17, 2018 The iPhone XR has the same camera and processor as the XS and is something like 850$. Albeit without the 50mm equiv and with less premium materials and lesser screen. But it’s different from previous “cheap iPhones” like the 5C where you’d get older processors and older cameras. The XR internals are the same as the more expensive model. So to say it will cost 1500$ to get the latest tech isn’t true. Apple products have never been about the race to the bottom. I don’t think they’ll ever change that strategy. They make the product they want to make and then charge for it. It is a successful strategy and I’ve always bought their products for the functionality and experience they offer. I couldn’t care less about brand prestige. The iPhone 7 is still a good machine with a competitive camera. Costs 450$. The Pixel is the first Android phone I seriously considered. Looks like a great phone. But I rather pay with my cash than with my privacy so personally I don’t like using anything from Google or other ad brands. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 The upgrades seem pretty good and worthwhile to me. HDR video will make a big difference to people who shoot outdoors and feel that the footage looks too 'videoish', and adding the depth sensor to enable portrait mode and fake bokeh to the selfie camera will make a huge difference to the large percentage of people who use that camera almost exclusively. Apple may be a greedy faceless corporate giant who only cares about profit, but their unethical surveillance of their own users sure means they know what people want from their products! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, kye said: Apple may be a greedy faceless corporate giant who only cares about profit, but their unethical surveillance of their own users sure means they know what people want from their products! Yeah but you get into the " Brute Force Cybernetics" thingy of "create a need and fill it". Apple is super great at that effect. Ergo, "Hot Damn, I Never knew I needed that". kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoodlum Posted September 21, 2018 Author Share Posted September 21, 2018 Here is one video taken at 4k60p. I'd be interested in seeing how 4k24p with the Extended Dynamic Range compares. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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