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Andrew Reid

Nikon Z6 features 4K N-LOG, 10bit HDMI output and 120fps 1080p

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17 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You can change and grade out the dark look. Why is this a concern? You raise the shadows up.

Well if you have crushed blacks, like all of it seems to be, you have really no data in there to recover. Sure you can lighten it up , but there will be little to no detail left to see the Gradients that should have been there. There is no free lunch. If you could just do that with raising the shadows up later then why even bother with any exposure, just point and shoot, fix in Post. Same goes for blowing out the highs. There is no data to recover. You end up with like 7 stops of DR If you are lucky.

Not counting if you get it right in camera you have less editing to do.  Sure, we hopefully have the skill to push stuff around in post but the average person is not going to grade nothing, and they shounldn't be expected on Auto to Have to. I am not sure if you raise the exposure on these new Nikons to avoid the crushed blacks is there room at the top to Not blow out the highs? Maybe not, Nikon may be trying to preserve the highs as it is worse to blow them than crush the blacks. It is a odd duck CS if you ask me. Nothing I like very much.

Nikon has somewhat in the last few years been known, at least on the camera photo side, as having a lot of DR, room to recover stuff. And it is a Sony Sensor, with Nikon's "secret sauce" in it so it ought to be capable. But they seemed, Nikon, to really change direction on these new ones. The older Nikons had some pretty great looking OOC CS. Interesting, surely no one complained about the D750 OOC look?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
17 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Did you see the RedShark footage? I hope you can see user preference over graded footage. Do you own the Z6? I have the Z6 and the one thing it does is capture realistic color and dynamic range. Now Sony on the other hand.....

Oh bullshit. The new Sony Venice CS is one of the best on the market now. It looks more Canon than Canon is. You are just talking out of your ass now. And the new Nikons have the worse out now. Fuji and Canon makes the new Nikon CS look like Hammered Dog Shit. And I liked Nikon until this turkey landed. I even have a Nikon DSLR. They need their ass beat. They must have hired the 3 Blind Mice for this new CS.

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51 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well if you have crushed blacks, like all of it seems to be, you have really no data in there to recover. Sure you can lighten it up , but there will be little to no detail left to see the Gradients that should have been there. There is no free lunch. If you could just do that with raising the shadows up later then why even bother with any exposure, just point and shoot, fix in Post. Same goes for blowing out the highs. There is no data to recover. You end up with like 7 stops of DR If you are lucky.

Not counting if you get it right in camera you have less editing to do.  Sure, we hopefully have the skill to push stuff around in post but the average person is not going to grade nothing, and they shounldn't be expected on Auto to Have to. I am not sure if you raise the exposure on these new Nikons to avoid the crushed blacks is there room at the top to Not blow out the highs? Maybe not, Nikon may be trying to preserve the highs as it is worse to blow them than crush the blacks. It is a odd duck CS if you ask me. Nothing I like very much.

Nikon has somewhat in the last few years been known, at least on the camera photo side, as having a lot of DR, room to recover stuff. And it is a Sony Sensor, with Nikon's "secret sauce" in it so it ought to be capable. But they seemed, Nikon, to really change direction on these new ones. The older Nikons had some pretty great looking OOC CS. Interesting, surely no one complained about the D750 OOC look?

I have the Z6 and as other stated the blacks are not crushed at all on the Z6. Everything is recoverable. I will post sample footage from test I did yesterday that proves this as a fact. Nikon does give the user more dark shadow area out of the gate in photo and video. I didn't raise the exposure in my test but it also didn't matter if you did over expose the shot. I did find out that the image comes out pushed to the lighter side then what you see on thru the view finder or back panel.  The issue you are seeing (like the S1) is that Nikon's secret sauce settings are not anywhere close to a flat profile and they follow there still image look. So based on my test you have to shoot with the flat profile and the -2 contrast and -2 brightness  and 0 sharpness. Again the shadow / crushed blacks have every single bit of data in them and are not baked into he footage.

Even when I shot closer to standard or even auto highlights and crushed blacks were recoverable meaning I lowered the highlight and raised the shadows and used mid tone to balance the shot. 

My conclusion is you have to treat the Z6 like the FS7 cine camera and almost under expose your look, almost, more then you think and more then the viewfinder is showing you.

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44 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh bullshit. The new Sony Venice CS is one of the best on the market now. It looks more Canon than Canon is. You are just talking out of your ass now. And the new Nikons have the worse out now. Fuji and Canon makes the new Nikon CS look like Hammered Dog Shit. And I liked Nikon until this turkey landed. I even have a Nikon DSLR. They need their ass beat. They must have hired the 3 Blind Mice for this new CS.

I didn't say the Z6 looked like Canon or the Venice. I also didn't compare the Z6 to a cine camera yet. I'm also not going by footage straight out of the camera either. Nikon colors are better then any Sony A7??? series camera or A9 camera. The Z6 has very a very clean color system and this is based on my experience next to the FS7 and test I've done. 

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40 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I have the Z6 and as other stated the blacks are not crushed at all on the Z6. Everything is recoverable. I will post sample footage from test I did yesterday that proves this as a fact. Nikon does give the user more dark shadow area out of the gate in photo and video. I didn't raise the exposure in my test but it also didn't matter if you did over expose the shot. I did find out that the image comes out pushed to the lighter side then what you see on thru the view finder or back panel.  The issue you are seeing (like the S1) is that Nikon's secret sauce settings are not anywhere close to a flat profile and they follow there still image look. So based on my test you have to shoot with the flat profile and the -2 contrast and -2 brightness  and 0 sharpness. Again the shadow / crushed blacks have every single bit of data in them and are not baked into he footage.

Even when I shot closer to standard or even auto highlights and crushed blacks were recoverable meaning I lowered the highlight and raised the shadows and used mid tone to balance the shot. 

My conclusion is you have to treat the Z6 like the FS7 cine camera and almost under expose your look, almost, more then you think and more then the viewfinder is showing you.

 I don't see using S Log in them how you are going to get it to work without ETTR. And if you are not using S Log why bother even buying or renting it. Maybe not S Log 3 all the time but. And yes the viewfinder doesn't change much no matter what you do. The FS7 mk II is one of the best out there now for the money.

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2 hours ago, Geoff_L said:

Just a question :  prores raw is, at the moment, not editable on PC. Do you guys think that it may be possible one day ? I'm eager to try prores raw recording with the Z6, but not ready to ditch all my computer gear to switch to apple (no money for that). Thank you !

Prores raw is editable with newest Edius 9.4 version.

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14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

 I don't see using S Log in them how you are going to get it to work without ETTR. And if you are not using S Log why bother even buying or renting it. Maybe not S Log 3 all the time but. And yes the viewfinder doesn't change much no matter what you do. The FS7 mk II is one of the best out there now for the money.

What cameras do you shoot with most? Which ones do you own and do any of the new mirrorless stand out to you? 

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15 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

 I don't see using S Log in them how you are going to get it to work without ETTR. And if you are not using S Log why bother even buying or renting it. Maybe not S Log 3 all the time but. And yes the viewfinder doesn't change much no matter what you do. The FS7 mk II is one of the best out there now for the money.

It's been established Slog across miriness cameras are not the same. Nikon has it's flat profile that you can shoot with so I not sure why you mention if you don't have S log? The Atomos fills then gap that you're referring to and I've almost dialed in the setting on the Z6 that gets the flat profile that I want. 

Like you mentioned and I said earlier you can recover almost anything on the Z6 and the latitude is wide. So unless you screw up your setting or are just winging it you have room to work.

The FS7 mkII is awesome and is a workhorse for sure. It's also massive after it's rigged out and the Z6 and BMP4K has closed the gap a little. When Sony replaces the FS7 mkII it will be great day for the rest of us. 

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Surely the fact that there is no exposure meter in video mode and no internal log doesn't help with the quality of the footage out there which the majority is probably shot without a recorder. 

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11 minutes ago, Django said:

Surely the fact that there is no exposure meter in video mode and no internal log doesn't help with the quality of the footage out there which the majority is probably shot without a recorder. 

I don't think that's the issue.  You can't get a flat profile. Just like still images from Nikon the shadow areas are darker then Sony or Canon but you can lift the shadows with all detail intact. The same look is applied to the Z6-Z7 video. 

Z6 footage doesn't have baked in crushed blacks and is the user choice how they grade it or if at all. I've seen Canon magic lantern footage with oversaturation, crushed blacks and warping background that's been given high praise for looking great. I think people have preconceived biased about Nikon video not really being 10 bit 422 quality. Nikon Z engineers said that Nikon was not making a cine type camera or getting into that field. And that's the reason for lack of cine features and why they released the Film makers kit and teamed with Atomos.  

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Here's some test footage with the Z6 - from 00:00 to 00:23 was what I thought was correct settings based on viewfinder and back LCD panel. from 00:24 to the end was later in the day and adjustments made. This is in no way dialed in and I'm still finding out what this camera can do.

Crushed shadows or how they adjust is apparent and highlight seem to be recovered. What do you guys think?

https://vimeo.com/331818021/4c5b0262a4

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1 hour ago, Django said:

Surely the fact that there is no exposure meter in video mode and no internal log doesn't help with the quality of the footage out there which the majority is probably shot without a recorder. 

What do you mean "no exposure meter"? Do you need a traditional hand light meter?

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Look at section 7.

https://wolfcrow.com/important-quirks-and-features-of-the-nikon-z6-for-cinematography/

1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

How do I get video to embed in my post?

 

Just add a link in your post. Some open all the way up, some are just a link. Most open from Vimeo, YouTube.

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Here's some test footage with the Z6 - from 00:00 to 00:23 was what I thought was correct settings based on viewfinder and back LCD panel. from 00:24 to the end was later in the day and adjustments made. This is in no way dialed in and I'm still finding out what this camera can do.

Crushed shadows or how they adjust is apparent and highlight seem to be recovered. What do you guys think?

 

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5 hours ago, Skip77 said:

What cameras do you shoot with most? Which ones do you own and do any of the new mirrorless stand out to you? 

Well None of the new mirrorless cameras I would buy right now. They are all too flawed for me right now other than the GH5. Most require a external recorder, or as much crap hanging off of one, PK4, then you paid for the camera. The Sony a7 III is not too bad, but FF lenses for it are breathtakingly expensive, and like all the major brands ,the fly by wire lenses just suck ass for them on the video side. With all the bullshit, if a person is serious, you might as well just buy a used Cine camera and be done with a lot of the troubles. You figure that people have made a full time living with something you can buy used now for 3,500 bucks or less on the Cine side. Once you have owned one having all they offer is damn hard going to a Hybrid, at least to me.

And for super cheap the OG BMPCC is still a better output than Any of the Mirrorless are if you are gong for a Cine look. Now for modern, Corporate, Doc work you want a C100, C300 of some kind. It just depends how serious you are I guess. I have serious doubts how many people Really need 4K yet in the is day and age. But no do all camera is Ever going to be as good or convenient as a dedicated Cine camera, new or old. Now if you are into Drone work well a Mirrorless is a good option but the new DJI 1" sensor ones are as good for most stuff, and cheaper, easier in the long run. This having a good video camera and a good Photo camera all in one is still not a reasonable reality in my mind yet. Might never be. You just am not ever going to have all the manual buttons, switches, battery capacity you really need to use, because of learned muscle memory.

If you are just going to toy around with video, nothing wrong with that, you might as well use your Smartphone, or buy a GoPro, or an Osmo Pocket. If you aren't making some kind of money off of the stuff you have I don't see throwing tons of money at something whether you can even afford it. Just go out and buy a old Panasonic AF100 or a Sony FS100 and learn how to operate a once decent Cine camera, and learn what they can and can't do. Skill trumps Any equipment. And having a half assed hybrid doesn't help the situation.

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2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well None of the new mirrorless cameras I would buy right now. They are all too flawed for me right now other than the GH5. Most required a external recorder, or as much crap hanging off of one, PK4, then you paid for the camera. The Sony a7 III is not too bad, but FF lenses for it are breathtakingly expensive, and like all the major brands ,the fly by wire lenses just suck ass for them on the video side. With all the bullshit, if a person is serious, you might as well just buy a used Cine camera and be done with a lot of the troubles. You figure that people have made a full time living with something you can buy used now for 3,500 bucks or less on the Cine side. Once yo have owned one having all they offer is damn hard going to a Hybrid, at least to me.

And for super cheap the OG BMPCC is still a better output than Any of the Mirrorless are if you are gong for a Cine look. Now for modern, Corporate, Doc work you want a C100 of some kind. It just depends how serious you are I guess. But no do all camera is Ever going to be as good or convenient as a dedicated Cine camera, new or old. Now if you are into Drone work well a Mirrorless is a good option but the new DJI 1" sensor ones are as good for most stuff, and cheaper, easier in the long run. This having a good video camera and a good Photo camera all in one is still not a reasonable reality in my mind yet. Might never be. You just am not ever going to have all the manual buttons, switches you really need to use learned by muscle memory in such a small body.

I'm not a fan of the C100 as the camera to buy for cooperate, doc work. 1080p on the C200 or most camera are not detailed enough (outside of Arri). I think you're selling your self short on the Z6 or S1 ( I say both because the image and specs look exactly the same and I honestly think the collaborated on the two cameras). The Z6 holds it's own against the D850 as in a second camera if you go with Nikon and get Nikon glass. The cine line up and rental outlets have their place for what we do and the Z6 is not the answer yet but it is the answer as a B-camera and A-camera on certain jobs like corporate, doc work act. 

Old school thinking says stay with a 5 year old cine camera for $3,500 but the sensor has so much time before it has issues and the whole giant battery, rig is about to be outdated as the only way you get a camera up and running. I am confused that you say no to the Atomos and Z6 but say just go buy a used cine camera and be done with it. 

12bit Raw with the Atomos and Z6 to XQD cards is beyond what the A7III can do or the GH5. To me the GH5 is the turkey of the bunch because you can't get around bad color and 4/3 compressed footage. The GH5 was a great jump in technology at the time but it has more smoke and mirrors then any camera Sony ever marketed and Panasonic got everyone to pay 1K dollars more then they should have for the GH5. 

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42 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

12bit Raw with the Atomos and Z6 to XQD cards is beyond what the A7III can do or the GH5. To me the GH5 is the turkey of the bunch because you can't get around bad color and 4/3 compressed footage. The GH5 was a great jump in technology at the time but it has more smoke and mirrors then any camera Sony ever marketed and Panasonic got everyone to pay 1K dollars more then they should have for the GH5. 

Smoke and mirrors?! GH5 is still the most dependable video tool for the price.

You do not even have a light meter on the Z (as I learned recently!).

How "was a great jump in technology at the time" when noone else can compete internally?

..and there is always the P4K..

 

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