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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

What do P4K owners think? Do they have to update? Do they need to?

I think its being misinterpreted by a lot of people that the Pocket 6K is the Pocket 4K Mark II and it just isn't.

The resolution is one thing but the mount dictates that it a different camera.

There is no lens you can put on the Pocket 6K that you can't put on the Pocket 4K but there are plenty the other way round.

If I look at 3 example lenses of a similar focal length that I own and use on the Pocket 4K but will not fit on the Pocket 6K:

  1. Panasonic 25mm f1.7 MFT mount
  2. 7Artisans 28mm f1.4 M mount
  3. REDPro Prime 25mm t1.8 PL mount

So would I prefer the bump in resolution or to be able to use those lenses? 

I'd like both but I'll take the lenses thanks.

That doesn't mean its right for everyone, of course, but for me as a Pocket 4K owner its my preference.

What seems to be forgotten in all this is that when the BMCC was launched with the EF mount, people were absolutely thrilled right up until the point that BM produced the MFT mount version shortly after which devalued the EF version immediately as everyone wanted the more versatile mount.

So I find it curious that the EF was the "wrong" mount and the MFT was the right mount then and yet now it seems to be the other way round when even leaving aside the additional adaption capabilities there are also far better MFT mount lenses available now than there was then too.

Who knows whether history will repeat itself again here and the Pocket 6K will be released with an MFT mount?

 

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1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

What do P4K owners think? Do they have to update? Do they need to? What's your impression now that P6K are already available while some people are still waiting for their backordered P4Ks?

P6k is twice the price of p4k. It's not an update but different product. It's like saying that Sony A7III is just an update to A6500 (same price difference). Not mentioning media price (p4k 60p works with cheap Samsung T5 ssd, p6k may need something much pricier).

For me p6k is not an option. My whole setup with p4k is something around p6k price. And the spec is not much different in my case: don't need 6k (even 4k is little too much for me); need slowmotion a lot, so full sensor 50p In p6k is a downgrade to me; sensor size is the only difference i like, but definitely not worth the price difference.

I dont need this camera, but i'm very happy to see it. It has the same software, which means that we will see more fixes, upgrades and more stable product.

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48 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Who knows whether history will repeat itself again here and the Pocket 6K will be released with an MFT mount?

I would much rather have a Pocket 6k with an MFT mount than an EF mount... seems like it would be a relatively easy adaption to offer,  except there is cooling to consider.  I would also rather have a Pocket 6k than a Pocket 4k and not just for the extra resolution.

There is an effortlessness to Pocket 6k footage that the Pocket 4K does not embody IMHO. The 6K footage just looks closer to right to me, dynamic range aside.  I have owned two Pocket 4ks and returned them both as I could never get comfortable/satisfied with the Pocket 4k image - as they say, it just wasn't for me.

Also, I think it has been said before, but based on the size of the sensor pixels, the Pocket 6K has greater resolution over the same amount of sensor area as compared to Pocket 4K.

Using the same lenses on a theoretical Pocket 6k MTF, you would have approximately 23% more resolution if you windowed Pocket 6k to the Pocket 4k sensor size as compared to the Pocket 4k.  The Pocket 6k is 266 pixels/mm. The Pocket 4k is 216 pixel/mm. (266-216)/216 = 23%

So you would be gaining resolution (and dare I say a more pleasing image presentation IMHO), by using your MTF compatible lens configurations, if Blackmagic offered a Pocket 6k MTF for you to use them on.

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4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I did a little reading on the reduser forums and people there believe that P6K upsets more P4K owners than anyone else.

The possibility of having a 6K sensor is great, but in reality it can be a burden for budget and feature consious users which P4K owners are (so many features for so little money!).

What do P4K owners think? Do they have to update? Do they need to? What's your impression now that P6K are already available while some people are still waiting for their backordered P4Ks?

 

I have no interest in the P6K. The problem I've found with speed boosters is they sometimes need fine backfocus adjust for individual lenses. I'm using a $180 Vilrox adapter and getting very good results once it's dialed in properly, so I'm going to get a couple more. For $540 extra, my P4K is just as capable as the P6K. For the cost of a P6K I'm looking for features like DPAF in particular, that's why I have my eye on the Sigma FP and upcoming Sony and Nikon models. Just hoping Apple whoops 🔴 and  frees internal raw for the masses.

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40 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

I have no interest in the P6K. The problem I've found with speed boosters is they sometimes need fine backfocus adjust for individual lenses. I'm using a $180 Vilrox adapter and getting very good results once it's dialed in properly, so I'm going to get a couple more. For $540 extra, my P4K is just as capable as the P6K. For the cost of a P6K I'm looking for features like DPAF in particular, that's why I have my eye on the Sigma FP and upcoming Sony and Nikon models. Just hoping Apple whoops 🔴 and  frees internal raw for the masses.

What Sony and Nikon models are you looking forward to?

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I think its being misinterpreted by a lot of people that the Pocket 6K is the Pocket 4K Mark II and it just isn't.

The resolution is one thing but the mount dictates that it a different camera.

There is no lens you can put on the Pocket 6K that you can't put on the Pocket 4K but there are plenty the other way round.

If I look at 3 example lenses of a similar focal length that I own and use on the Pocket 4K but will not fit on the Pocket 6K:

  1. Panasonic 25mm f1.7 MFT mount
  2. 7Artisans 28mm f1.4 M mount
  3. REDPro Prime 25mm t1.8 PL mount

So would I prefer the bump in resolution or to be able to use those lenses? 

I'd like both but I'll take the lenses thanks.

That doesn't mean its right for everyone, of course, but for me as a Pocket 4K owner its my preference.

What seems to be forgotten in all this is that when the BMCC was launched with the EF mount, people were absolutely thrilled right up until the point that BM produced the MFT mount version shortly after which devalued the EF version immediately as everyone wanted the more versatile mount.

So I find it curious that the EF was the "wrong" mount and the MFT was the right mount then and yet now it seems to be the other way round when even leaving aside the additional adaption capabilities there are also far better MFT mount lenses available now than there was then too.

Who knows whether history will repeat itself again here and the Pocket 6K will be released with an MFT mount?

 

MFT lens won't cover the APS-C sensor, right?  

I think and have sen a better argument for EF mount and lens for the P6k then the other way around.  MFT P4K users are more vocal but the side by side samples sow better detail and clarity on the P6K EF mount.  You can't get detail back if the P4K can't capture it. 

The P4K looks great until you compare it to the P6K.  (detail wise). 

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40 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

What Sony and Nikon models are you looking forward to?

MFT lens won't cover the APS-C sensor, right? 

The A7sIII could be interesting if Sony gets the color science right and it has some form of raw, it may even have a global shutter. There's rumors of pro-spec Sony and Nikon APS-C bodies.

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6 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I did a little reading on the reduser forums and people there believe that P6K upsets more P4K owners than anyone else.

The possibility of having a 6K sensor is great, but in reality it can be a burden for budget and feature consious users which P4K owners are (so many features for so little money!).

What do P4K owners think? Do they have to update? Do they need to? What's your impression now that P6K are already available while some people are still waiting for their backordered P4Ks?

If I owned a RED then I would be very tempted to look down on the rest of the world with comical interest in what the 'little people' who 'are playing at film-making' and aren't serious because they didn't sell their house/car/wife to afford a 'real camera' and I would assume that because the P6K didn't impact the lofty place that I exhibit that it doesn't have any real impact on anyone else except the other cameras that play in the shallow end.

Of course, I don't own a RED and I don't view the world in that way, so I would beg to differ.  I think there's loads of people who shoot Canon and have invested in EF mount lenses, and who would love to record RAW but can't afford a C200, and this would be hugely interesting to them.

But in reality, I have a camera with fantastic IBIS and so I look down from the lofty place of cinematic hand-held film-making watching all these suckers slug around their tripods and huge camera rigs wishing deeply that they could leave the house without a boot full of equipment and not produce a video that has so much hand shake it looks like an 8mm home video.

Ah, but seriously folks...  I'll be here all week!   😂😂😂

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3 hours ago, kye said:

If I owned a RED then I would be very tempted to look down on the rest of the world with comical interest in what the 'little people' who 'are playing at film-making' and aren't serious because they didn't sell their house/car/wife to afford a 'real camera' and I would assume that because the P6K didn't impact the lofty place that I exhibit that it doesn't have any real impact on anyone else except the other cameras that play in the shallow end.

Of course, I don't own a RED and I don't view the world in that way, so I would beg to differ.  I think there's loads of people who shoot Canon and have invested in EF mount lenses, and who would love to record RAW but can't afford a C200, and this would be hugely interesting to them.

But in reality, I have a camera with fantastic IBIS and so I look down from the lofty place of cinematic hand-held film-making watching all these suckers slug around their tripods and huge camera rigs wishing deeply that they could leave the house without a boot full of equipment and not produce a video that has so much hand shake it looks like an 8mm home video.

Ah, but seriously folks...  I'll be here all week!   😂😂😂

The test footages actually look great on the P6K but it's not something that you can't reproduce on the P4K. But yeah the shakiness is kinda distracting if the shots are just people walking or stationary buildings

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9 hours ago, Skip77 said:

MFT lens won't cover the APS-C sensor, right?  

Based on comparing the actual sensor size of the Pocket 6K with the JVC LS300 then from my experience the typical VSM setting on most MFT lenses would just cover it. 

Though even a small windowed crop mode of 5-10% with that extra resolution would be a worthwhile trade off to be able to use those lenses.

9 hours ago, Skip77 said:

I think and have sen a better argument for EF mount and lens for the P6k then the other way around.  

You think and have seen ?

Which one is it ? 

Your argument or one that you have seen?

Either way, can you talk me through how there can be a better argument for the EF mount camera when both cameras could take EF lenses and the MFT camera can additionally use native MFT, Leica M and PL mount lenses ?

Based on the arguments you have thought of/seen would your Nikon Z6 have been better to be F mount or is it better to have the shallower Z mount that opens up a whole mass of different lens options and also be able to use F mount as well then?

9 hours ago, Skip77 said:

MFT P4K users are more vocal but the side by side samples sow better detail and clarity on the P6K EF mount.  

MFT P4K users ?

As opposed to what?

Users of the non-existent EF P4k?

You are conflating two entirely different things.

These are different cameras and hence why the reaction from people who actually own the Pocket 4K has been largely muted because either they aren't that bothered about the extra resolution or prefer the extra flexibility of the MFT mount or don't want to spend the extra money to trade up the camera and the increased IT costs of dealing with 6K or some combination of all of those. 

And some owners have gone "great, I'll buy the 6K one and use that as well".

As much as you'd clearly likely there to be a massive outpouring of rage from Pocket 4K owners about this new camera, it just isn't there because this is not a Mark II version of the Pocket 4K thats come in at the same price with more resolution, it is clearly a different camera.

For anyone with a bizarre fetish for revelling in and stoking other people's outrage, I can see that that would be a disappointment but it doesn't alter the facts.

Now, if the Pocket 6K had come out with an MFT mount at or around the same price then you might well have needed a few extra boxes of Kleenex and some screen wipes but thats because that would have been a Mark II version of the Pocket 4K.

But then of course, that would also be related to it using the same, more flexible,  mount. 

9 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You can't get detail back if the P4K can't capture it. 

You can't get any detail on the P6K if you can't get your lens on it.

Are we just going to gloss over the fact that you can't mount the vast majority of PL lenses on it or does that not now matter for a cinema camera ?

9 hours ago, Skip77 said:

The P4K looks great until you compare it to the P6K.  (detail wise). 

There are flaws in a lot of the side by side tests but if we let that slide then considering its twice the price then it should really shouldn't it?

Which is why its whats known as a different camera.

 

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After using both the P4K & P6K cameras for a bit, I do not believe that the P6K is an upgrade to the P4K. It is a sibling or cousin to the P4K. There are advantages to both. If I had to pick only one, I don't know which I would pick. If I could only take one on a trip, I would currently probably take the P4K, because I have a much larger selection of M4/3 lenses. I am positive that either one will give you great footage, if you do your part.

I bet we will end up with three cameras in the P4K line: M4/3, Super35, & Full frame

$1,295, $2,495, $3,495

 

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6 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

 

You think and have seen ?

Which one is it ? 

Your argument or one that you have seen?

 

 

Since reading comprehension I lacking with you I'll clear this up.

I think (EF mount is better) and have seen better argument for EF mount and lens for the P6k then the other way around.  

 

1 hour ago, drm said:

After using both the P4K & P6K cameras for a bit, I do not believe that the P6K is an upgrade to the P4K. It is a sibling or cousin to the P4K. There are advantages to both. If I had to pick only one, I don't know which I would pick. If I could only take one on a trip, I would currently probably take the P4K, because I have a much larger selection of M4/3 lenses. I am positive that either one will give you great footage, if you do your part.

I bet we will end up with three cameras in the P4K line: M4/3, Super35, & Full frame

$1,295, $2,495, $3,495

 

Did you see more detail in the P6K?  Most side by side comparisons show the P6K resolves more detail.  Other then that the image quality looks identical ( the P6K does look better in low light even though other have said the P4K with booster would be better),

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29 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Since reading comprehension I lacking with you I'll clear this up.

I think (EF mount is better) and have seen better argument for EF mount and lens for the P6k then the other way around.  

Why is this so fucking hard to understand ?  Oh, you're being a ^%$k because I asked the question.  I'll be one back.

EDIT>>>

I had a longer reply but really I think "Fuck off" will suffice.

I'm joining the long list of people that have you on ignore you complete and utter tit.

 

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1 minute ago, BTM_Pix said:

OK, just for clarity for me and all the other dicks that lack the sufficient reading comprehension, talk me through the argument for having a lens mount with less options being better than one with more options. 

 

 

 

Hey I responded in kind as one.  

How does EF mount have less options? 

The lens options are endless and for serious cine shooters EF gives you options that you can build around.  

There's no extra cost in dealing with 6K footage. You like spreading false information motion don't you? If you're working with P4K 4k footage then you're not talking a hit working with 6k Braw in Resolve.  Resolve has CPU and GPU requirements that are the same for the p4K footage and P6K footage.  But keep spreading false info to make your case.

It's been proven the P6K resolves better detail then the p4K.  This should worry you but you don't get it or have already made excuses for it. 

The P4K is a great camera and no need for you to justify your P4K purchase unless you feel threatened.  You can keep your tricked out speed boosters and the issue it brings.  I know P4K speed booster users feel like they're beating the system and that they're smart using speed boosters to cheat the camera up to better specs, but most pro's have embraced the P6K because they see the advantages.  

And if the additional cost of the P6K bothers you then you really have no business owning the P4K or P6K. ( I paraphrased this from multiple users when they said it too me).

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1 hour ago, drm said:

After using both the P4K & P6K cameras for a bit, I do not believe that the P6K is an upgrade to the P4K. It is a sibling or cousin to the P4K. There are advantages to both. If I had to pick only one, I don't know which I would pick. If I could only take one on a trip, I would currently probably take the P4K, because I have a much larger selection of M4/3 lenses. I am positive that either one will give you great footage, if you do your part.

I bet we will end up with three cameras in the P4K line: M4/3, Super35, & Full frame

$1,295, $2,495, $3,495

 

"The Z Cam E2-S6 S35 6K camera will cost $3,995 USD and is scheduled to be available in October this year. This model will be available in either PL/EF or M4/3 mounts. The E2-F6 FF model will be available in PL or EF mount for $4,995 USD.

The E2-F8 full frame will be available in PL or EF mount for $5,995 USD"

This is the competition!

I am not sure how high a hybrid camera can go. Probably just 4K/10bit for now. Maybe more for an m43(GH6?), it is very difficult a mainstream camera maker (except Panasonic) bring any kind of internal raw or higher resolution for 2019/2020.

BM already seriously undercut Z cam prices without anything serious missing, plus a 5" screen, plus the license key, plus better sound options.

So, do you see a difference between P6K/P4K footage? What about higher ISO? 

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3 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Hey I responded in kind as one.  

How does EF mount have less options? 

The lens options are endless and for serious cine shooters EF gives you options that you can build around.  

 

For fucks sake.

I have you on ignore, how can I see this post ?

Seeing that I can....just for old times sake and for ONE post only I'm going to respond.

READ THE FUCKING FACTS IN MY POST YOU FUCKING MORON

The lens options for EF mount are not endless if you want to use PL mount lenses.

You want to talk about serious cine shooters an yet want to pretend that PL lenses wouldn't somehow fit in that area ?

Seriously ?

I'm going to repeat this one more time so you can try and understand it.

There is no lens that you can put on an EF mount camera that you can't put on an MFT mount camera but there are plenty of lenses that you can put on an MFT camera that you can't put on an EF mount camera.

Therefore, the lens options for EF aren't "endless" as they literally end at any lens with a flange distance less than 44mm.

As for the rest of your post well I'll leave you to your "spreading false information" and the "unless you feel threatened" fantasies like the pound shop Donald Trump you clearly are.

Fuckity bye.

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49 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

EDIT>>>

I had a longer reply but really I think "Fuck off" will suffice.

I'm joining the long list of people that have you on ignore you complete and utter tit.

 

No problem bud.

My original statement was easy to understand.

It's great you're in the m43 camp and will defend that camera and mount all day long. 

But lots of people welcome the P6K and see the advantages.  It boggles the mind to think a NEW BM 6K camera can be released and at the same time has this group of m43 P4K owners have horrible, mean spirited, non factual and brutal half a page long comment on why the P6K is not for them.  It's like the P6K is the enemy and they have to tell everyone not to buy it. 

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Just now, Skip77 said:

No problem bud.

My original statement was easy to understand.

It's great you're in the m43 camp and will defend that camera and mount all day long. 

But lots of people welcome the P6K and see the advantages.  It boggles the mind to think a NEW BM 6K camera can be released and at the same time has this group of m43 P4K owners have horrible, mean spirited, non factual and brutal half a page long comment on why the P6K is not for them.  It's like the P6K is the enemy and they have to tell everyone not to buy it. 

Again, why can I see this horseshit while you are on ignore ???

In the m43 camp?

Jesus tonight, I own PL, EF, L, F, X, EF-M and SA mount cameras for fucks sake.

Horrible, non factual and brutal comment about why the P6K isn't for me ?

Fucking hell you've got issues way beyond not being able to grasp facts.

Really the last time I'm responding.

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18 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

For fucks sake.

I have you on ignore, how can I see this post ?

Seeing that I can....just for old times sake and for ONE post only I'm going to respond.

READ THE FUCKING FACTS IN MY POST YOU FUCKING MORON

The lens options for EF mount are not endless if you want to use PL mount lenses.

You want to talk about serious cine shooters an yet want to pretend that PL lenses wouldn't somehow fit in that area ?

Seriously ?

I'm going to repeat this one more time so you can try and understand it.

There is no lens that you can put on an EF mount camera that you can't put on an MFT mount camera but there are plenty of lenses that you can put on an MFT camera that you can't put on an EF mount camera.

Therefore, the lens options for EF aren't "endless" as they literally end at any lens with a flange distance less than 44mm.

As for the rest of your post well I'll leave you to your "spreading false information" and the "unless you feel threatened" fantasies like the pound shop Donald Trump you clearly are.

Fuckity bye.

Last time I checked Sigma Primes, Canon Cine Primes, Zeis, Rokinon and others are EF mount.  

The test so far show P6K with EF mount out performs the P4K with speed booster for resolving clarity.   Look at the videos comparing the two cameras. 

I'll say it again the EF lens options are limitless based on choices and quality.  You need more lenses and quality then you need your head checked.  

Why are you so triggered?  This is not a political board or discussion.   You don't know my world views or political views. Let me guess you're not an American and don't like America or Americans.

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