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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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12 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Yes. In my signature - "**Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**"

Since we have an insider here, are you able to provide us with some real, new info?

Is there a plan for any sample footage to be released soon?

Is September still a realistic estimate? Is that global or just a handful of stores to meet the suggested release time?

Of course, I (and I assume the rest of us) understand if you're unable to provide any more information. The silence is deafening.

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Paul Watzlawick said "...it is impossible not to communicate". Right : ) Even though, this doesn't mean product won't arrive in time. Hook just can't be Grant Petty not even for a while ; -)

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19 hours ago, jonpais said:

Do you work for Blackmagic or something? 🤔

If anyone knows about color science it's this guy.  I don't know him, but he seems like a really smart guy and knows alot about Blackmagic camera development.  Before 2014 he used to share a lot of stuff he shot on Blackmagic cameras and that was incredible stuff too.

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On 8/10/2018 at 6:02 PM, CaptainHook said:

Yes. In my signature - "**Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**"

Captain Hook - the man with the best BM LUT if I remember correctly from my Pocket days. Welcome, can't wait for the P4k!

Chris

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19 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Thanks for the "welcomes".

I (and others at BMD) have been following this thread (and threads elsewhere) so we're aware of what people are discussing and asking but in general we don't/can't comment on a lot of things before release sorry.

We appreciate the support and are working hard to deliver the best we can offer you all.

I think with a flippy screen and bigger battery you would pretty much double your sales. Add in DPAF and own the vlogging market.

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Well... you say that, but I doubt it would make sense, as I said once before...

Quote

Not sure who'd use one to vlog with... I find the rec button on the front for this use a little silly. I'm not impressed at all at what Canon is doing, you might even say I'm disappointed in them, but at the end of the day they are the go-to vlogger brand and for a reason. Vloggers want solid and smooth C-AF. Canon's DualPixel AF is the benchmark here. Vloggers need to check their framing... whether it is the G7X series, an 80D or 6DmkII, they've got them covered. Canon restrict a lot of their cameras to 1080p... for vloggers this however means it edits like butter, renders/exports out quickly and can be uploaded quicker as well. Vlogger = content sharer, so getting their content up quickly matters a whole lot. And people generally find that Canon has a pretty colorscience. The footage straight out of the camera requires very little to no tweaking/colorcorrecting/grading, again helping to keep turnaround flows fast. Anyways... in the end you'd have to come to the conclusion that the vlogger's needs are in contrast with what Blackmagic is all about. I mean you can forget about C-AF. It hasn't got a vari-angle or flip-up screen. Yes, you can add a monitor, but vloggers aren't about adding bulk and complicated set-ups when it can be kept super simple. Most use furry adhesive windscreens on their G7XmkII and just use the internal mic. I love ProRes and RAW DNG, but there's a more extensive workflow connected to that. Sure you can bake-in LUTs, but is this really the proper use for a cinema camera??

... a cinema camera should be used as the name would suggest in a product-type environment. Where you'd otherwise would've loved to use a RED/ARRI for, but due to budget or space/weight contraints isn't exactly an option. Rigs, matteboxes, follow focus, tripods, monopods, sliders, dollies, since the HDSLR revolution production style shooting has become accessible to anyone and I loved shooting that way with all the GH-range models. IBIS, C-AF, et cetera sure makes life a bit easier, but I don't actually mind doing it the oldschool way, that's been proven to work for decades and is actually still very much the industry standard of high-end production. That's what cinema cameras are all about. To use a camera with such purpose for vlogging... I do believe it's the wrong tool for the job, so a flippy screen and sweet C-AF... for a LX100 successor... yeahhhss! For a BMPCC4K... ehhh... not really a dealbreaker if left out. I think that they might even do that on purpose. Must've been a lot of consumers buying one of those 475 bucks BMPCCs back when they were on sale that went complaining because they had no idea what a cinema camera can and can not do. It requires an operator with know-how.

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I don’t know anything about doubling sales, but a longer life battery would most certainly be welcome - manufacturers of everything from cellphones to laptops to you name it realize the importance of battery life.

Nowhere is it written in stone that you should spend upwards of $300 for a solution to a problem that need not exist in the first place. 

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8 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Must've been a lot of consumers buying one of those 475 bucks BMPCCs back when they were on sale that went complaining because they had no idea what a cinema camera can and can not do. It requires an operator with know-how.

And I'd be willing to wager that just as many held off purchasing the original Pocket, returned it or simply no longer use it because of design issues.

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9 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Well... you say that, but I doubt it would make sense, as I said once before...

... a cinema camera should be used as the name would suggest in a product-type environment. Where you'd otherwise would've loved to use a RED/ARRI for, but due to budget or space/weight contraints isn't exactly an option. Rigs, matteboxes, follow focus, tripods, monopods, sliders, dollies, since the HDSLR revolution production style shooting has become accessible to anyone and I loved shooting that way with all the GH-range models. IBIS, C-AF, et cetera sure makes life a bit easier, but I don't actually mind doing it the oldschool way, that's been proven to work for decades and is actually still very much the industry standard of high-end production. That's what cinema cameras are all about. To use a camera with such purpose for vlogging... I do believe it's the wrong tool for the job, so a flippy screen and sweet C-AF... for a LX100 successor... yeahhhss! For a BMPCC4K... ehhh... not really a dealbreaker if left out. I think that they might even do that on purpose. Must've been a lot of consumers buying one of those 475 bucks BMPCCs back when they were on sale that went complaining because they had no idea what a cinema camera can and can not do. It requires an operator with know-how.

Vloggers tend to operate in three distinct environments, a fixed camera in a purpose-built studio, a hand-held camera while out and about (selfie and b-roll), and an action camera for harsh environments.  Some have drones too.  

These are often covered by a G7 or RX100 for the first two and a GoPro for the third, but there are vloggers who do use a dedicated camera for their studio setups, and I've seen REDs, C300s, FS5s and 1DXs as well as the usual suspects of the various Canon cameras.  These 'premium' setups have boom mics, monitors, and large soft-boxes permanently setup.  I think for those that have a fixed studio camera setup the BMPCC4K would be an excellent choice because of the combination of low cost, the anticipated high quality, and the convenience of having prores to edit with SOOC.  

They might also find use as a mobile vlogging camera when combined with a gimbal, MF (like Sony users have learned to do), and a fast wide lens.  

I find that increasingly YT creators are blurring the lines between documentary film-making, studio film-making, studio talking-to-camera (vlogging), mobile vlogging, travel vlogging, travel film-making, etc etc.

Will these niches drives a lot of sales? No.  But I do think they'll have a small footprint in the YT / vlogger ecosystem.

Here are a couple of examples of potential customers that blend "vlogging" with more traditional film-making elements, and who might be interested in upping production quality:

 

 

 

I'll stop now, but there are many many examples of this blending of style, and I think the idea that you can approach RED/ARRI quality for mid-range mirrorless prices will be a HUGELY attractive factor for these people :) 

As a special bonus, here's a couple that shoot mostly hand-held with an FS5 (IIRC) and a GoPro.  Production quality isn't top notch (stabilisation is an issue), but I've seen previous videos where they had a smaller Sony video camera, so if they can afford an FS5 then a BMPCC4K wouldn't be out of the question.

 

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I would use the term YouTubers instead, since to me, vlogging implies recording a sort of video diary of your life - though everyone's definition will of course be different!

And if I were making talking head videos of myself with the batcam for one of the video hosting websites, a fully functioning smartphone app would be more useful to me than an articulating screen. 

Some of the solutions to the limitations make me think of someone looking at a room to rent with no bath. The landlord starts saying how you can attach rings to a metal rod, suspend it from the ceiling, hang a curtain, connect a hose to the sink and use it as a shower!

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13 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I would use the term YouTubers instead, since to me, vlogging implies recording a sort of video diary of your life - though everyone's definition will of course be different!

And if I were making talking head videos of myself with the batcam for one of the video hosting websites, a fully functioning smartphone app would be more useful to me than an articulating screen. 

I guess that's part of my point @jonpais - there are more and more people who don't fit the title 'vlogger' neatly.  Any vlogger who watched a "how to vlog" video will be trying b-roll as an alternative to jump-cuts, and any vlogger who bought anything and has watched an unboxing video will be doing product shots, so to say that a vlogger is someone who only ever shoots selfie shots would eliminate most vloggers.

Take Kelsie Humphreys for example (who I showed above interviewing Tony Robbins) - she makes vlogs as BTS from her interviews.  Does that make her a vlogger or is she the producer of a talk-show / interview channel?  Same for Laura Kampf (also above) who shoots no-dialogue creation videos, using MF-focus tripod shallow DoF techniques, but also shoots vlogs, is she a vlogger or not?

We can use your definition of "recording a sort of video diary of your life" which I think is quite a nice definition, but it isn't very useful if we're talking about what equipment matches that style of creation, because video diaries can be shot in any style with any equipment, because it refers to a subject not a style.

It might have been the case that certain types of content matched certain types of shots and equipment (game shows vs TV drama vs blockbuster movie) but those pesky Youtubers haven't been told the rules, so they're just using every colour in the whole paint-box with reckless abandon!

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Of course better battery life would've been welcome. Especially since it's targeted as a mobile all-in-one device that can be used for filmmaking standalone. It's more about the flippidy dippedy screen and C-AF that got mentioned. Which as well are welcome additions in many situations, because more = better period, but... as this is a cinema camera, I'm okay with the omission. I'd love me an ARRI Alexa Mini and there it would essentially be no different.

Indeed I was refering to the use for 'vloggers' that walk around with one of these, stretching their arms out, pointing the camera at themselves. This particular crowd I see no reason for having a cinema camera that require an extensive knowledge, thoughtprocess and skill, both in operation and in post-production. Now, if you're talking about certain YouTube 'shows' if you will, where there's an actual production environment... perhaps a set, but for sure lighting, audio, et cetera is taken heavily into consideration, as well as post-production and needing the footage to be of a certain standard and look with a ton of gradability, then of course a cinema camera fits right in. I was strictly talking about the Casey Neistat wannabes out there, riding around on their Boosted boards, trying hard to be semi-interesting, all using the same music and effects they've picked up from Sam Kolder and co; that basically would've used Snapchat and their smartphone to get content online easy and quick, but are seeking after bigger sensor aesthetics and optical zoom. There a point-and-shoot makes more sense than a cinema camera... Casey himself uses a smartphone on his runs, tries to have atleast a G7XII with him on-the-go, will be out and about with a Gorillapod and 80D (6DmkII?) for regular vlogs and B-roll and hates on Sony for not really having front-facing displays for vlogging, but doesn't mind so much using them for static tripod/rig shots at his studio. It's all about the application and what I keep on saying: the right tool for the job. Jon Olsson was obsessed with getting a RED. Thought it would make things EPIC. Found that it's a very impractical camera for vlogs and went with Sony/Pansonic/Canon interchangeable lens cameras instead.

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Blackmagic can't get their battery life much better unless they use a different cooling method and/or switch to an ASIC which will likely not happen any time soon.

They optimize their cameras fairly well for the features they do have.

An articulating screen would be ridiculously hard to design with a screen that size. It probably was much easier to use a monitor they already know is of a high quality.

Blackmagic has probably looked into autofocus by now and it is really expensive.

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40 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Blackmagic can't get their battery life much better unless they use a different cooling method and/or switch to an ASIC which will likely not happen any time soon.

They optimize their cameras fairly well for the features they do have.

An articulating screen would be ridiculously hard to design with a screen that size. It probably was much easier to use a monitor they already know is of a high quality.

Blackmagic has probably looked into autofocus by now and it is really expensive.

Do you work for Blackmagic, too?

It was my understanding that if they used a battery similar to that in Panasonic’s GH5, battery life would be much improved.

I do have a question for anyone who knows: don’t cameras with heavily compressed codecs get hotter than those that do not?

And just how do you know whether BMD did a cost/benefit analysis of AF-C in the batcam? Anyhow, why state the obvious? Of course it’s expensive!

However, unlike BMD, Sony and Canon already have a lens lineup optimized for their AF. Blackmagic does not. 

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Do you work for Blackmagic, too?

It was my understanding that if they used a battery similar to that in Panasonic’s GH5, battery life would be much improved.

I do have a question for anyone who knows: don’t cameras with heavily compressed codecs get hotter than those that do not?

And just how do you know whether BMD did a cost/benefit analysis of AF-C in the batcam? Anyhow, why state the obvious? Of course it’s expensive!

However, unlike BMD, Sony and Canon already have a lens lineup optimized for their AF. Blackmagic does not. 

LP-E6 canon battery is almost the same size as Panasonic batteries, but not sure if it has the same juice.  

Blackmagic cameras use FGPA which is a less optimized board compared to an ASIC and requires more power.  It has an advantage of shorter production cycles especially in lower volume cameras because you can easily make last-minute adjustments if you want to add more features.  ASICs is very locked in as they are expensive to manufacture.

They use solid state peltier cooling to handle the heat distribution and that uses a lot of power.  I don't know if other cameras use that but it does make a difference.

I don't think type of compression plays a big part in heat, it's mainly the sensor.

 

 

Blackmagic is not very experienced in building DSLR form-factor cameras yet, in what is only their second attempt they produced a camera at half the price of the GH5s that will likely be a serious rival in image quality.  I think Blackmagic made the right compromises to get it at the price it is.

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