IronFilm Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 8 hours ago, webrunner5 said: Other than maybe Kinefinity nobody else is close money wise to a heck of a product. Overlooking Z Cam? E2 giving 4K 120fps for $2K is amazing. Ditto the E1 being only $199, that is an awful lot of value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I think @webrunner5 was referring to cinema camera manufacturers, not all camera manufacturers. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 45 minutes ago, IronFilm said: Overlooking Z Cam? E2 giving 4K 120fps for $2K is amazing. Ditto the E1 being only $199, that is an awful lot of value. Yeah but the footage out of the E2 is pretty bad right now. Will they fix it, I don't know. But it can be 250 bucks and I don't want it. Well I guess I would LoL. Yeah I forgot about the E1. Now that is pretty good. I am sure they will figure out the E2, I hope. But I don't see how they are going to sell Any of them since the 4K BMPCC has been announced Unless you need a damn small profile body. Ergo, BM Micro size. They are in a tough spot right now with it no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 56 minutes ago, mercer said: I think @webrunner5 was referring to cinema camera manufacturers, not all camera manufacturers. oops. Just re-read his post - I think you’re right. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, jonpais said: oops. Just re-read his post - I think you’re right. ? Totally off topic, but how do you like full frame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, mercer said: Totally off topic, but how do you like full frame? Loving it, but most of all, reliable AF-C. sry for the off-topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 hours ago, jonpais said: Loving it, but most of all, reliable AF-C. sry for the off-topic... Hmm, I must have missed that. I never knew you went FF. Grats. Hell it's about time you saw the light. Sony, FF, heck you may have died and went to heaven. ? 6 hours ago, jonpais said: I can’t go along with the ‘they’ve been screwing us’ line. I paid $1,800 for the GH5, $1,880 for the a7 III, or around $500 more for the two hybrid cameras which admittedly pack a lot more tech. You may not need or want that tech, you might just want a sensor in a box that shoots RAW, and that’s fine, but that tech costs money either way. For working professionals who need a hybrid camera (read: most people), a full frame camera for under $2,000 is still peanuts. I agree with you thoughts. Panasonic and Sony have picked up the pace here pretty fast lately. But this new 4K BMPCC is more a Cine camera than a Hybrid. I think the GH5s is a bit also. But we are talking $8000.00 type Cine cameras this thing is going to be able to compete with. That is a Big deal. The average person is not even going to need it or the 8 grand cameras. They are slow and clunky. This BM might not even be clunky. We don't know yet. But for other than run n gun, and it may do that, this thing is maybe unbeatable for us money wise. I guess we will soon find out. I think we are going to be blowen away by the 4K Raw footage out of it. jonpais 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 3 hours ago, mercer said: Totally off topic, but how do you like full frame? 3 hours ago, jonpais said: Loving it, but most of all, reliable AF-C. sry for the off-topic... Oh, jonpais, you've got the A7iii? Welcome onboard the Sony boat! 44 minutes ago, webrunner5 said: This BM might not even be clunky. We don't know yet. But for other than run n gun, and it may do that, this thing is maybe unbeatable for us money wise. I guess we will soon find out. I think we are going to be blowen away by the 4K Raw footage out of it. Maybe, but then not because of better resolution than what we already have with our normal hybrids. Just compared a wedding video I shot two weeks ago with A6500 with a four year old I had then shot with BM Pocket - on a UHD TV, from a very short viewing distance. Negligible visible differences of resolution between "HD minus 20%" - the Pocket has 1920 by 1080 pixels on it's sensor, un-debayered - and "6k downsampled to UHD". How is that? Well, Yedlin was obviously right. The display resolution is of more importance than that of the camera and FullHD is the threshold. The BMPCC 4k also has just 4k pixels (the additional pixels for the wider AR can't be used for debayering). Decided I had to go back to the computer and finetune the colors, because in comparison *some* Sony shots looked like "video", colorwise. Not all though. And here is the interesting part. I had used GFilm as picture profile. And I'm glad I did. The A6500 may have it's shortcomings (more so if you compare it - on paper - to the Pocket 4k's specs), but it also has undeniable virtues (small size, low weight, good lowlight and AF), the most important one being that I already own it and a combo of good glass. Sony cameras are vloggers' choices. They don't care if their stuff looks like video. No one yet showed me a Youtube link to a Sony video to disprove that. But there will be a *few* Pocket clips to show such elusive qualities as better cadence or beautiful skintones. Few, because at least the skintones need the ability of the user-colorist to let them survive. jonpais and JordanWright 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 7 hours ago, mercer said: I think @webrunner5 was referring to cinema camera manufacturers, not all camera manufacturers. Z Cam can be argued it is a cinema camera manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 11 hours ago, IronFilm said: Z Cam can be argued it is a cinema camera manufacturer. I can agree to that If they get their act together on better output on the E2. And they may be belly up with the 4K BMPCC announced for half the price of the E2. I have no clue how they are going to sell it at even 1000 bucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 On 6/19/2018 at 1:38 AM, jonpais said: @cantsin Seriously nice color. Actually, I just realized that the h264 encoding with ffmpeg introduced a hue shift and degradation of tonality. Re-encoded with Adobe Media Encoder, and now colors are as they should have been. https://vimeo.com/275573258 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Yeah, @cantsin that is some of the nicest color from the BMPCC that I have seen. Who needs the P4K with an image like that? Nathan Gabriel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 5 hours ago, webrunner5 said: I can agree to that If they get their act together on better output on the E2. And they may be belly up with the 4K BMPCC announced for half the price of the E2. I have no clue how they are going to sell it at even 1000 bucks? It isn't hard to see how the E2 could be viewed as a premium camera relative to the BMPCC4K for some people's needs and worth the premium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezid Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 35 minutes ago, IronFilm said: It isn't hard to see how the E2 could be viewed as a premium camera relative to the BMPCC4K for some people's needs and worth the premium right now the E2 is closer to a phone, at least in terms of internal processing... webrunner5 and andrgl 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 What phone has a near on S35 sensor with interchangeable lenses and 10Bit and 4K 120fps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, mercer said: Yeah, @cantsin that is some of the nicest color from the BMPCC that I have seen. Who needs the P4K with an image like that? Netflix?? ??? IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaconda_ Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 This is wrong...right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerocool22 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Anaconda_ said: This is wrong...right? Yeah compared to Full frame it will be close to 70mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 10 hours ago, mercer said: Yeah, @cantsin that is some of the nicest color from the BMPCC that I have seen. Who needs the P4K with an image like that? The image of the old Pocket still has two weaknesses: moiré - if you watch the video carefully and in full resolution, you see it everywhere; resolution - with a native 1920x1080 Bayer sensor, the camera realistically just produces an optical resolution of about 720p. There are third-party OLPFs for the old Pocket that greatly reduce - but not eliminate - moiré, but they lower resolution even more. There's a chance that the 4k sensor of the new Pocket alleviates moiré with high-resolution lenses. No doubt the camera will produce excellent 2k/1080p when downsampling its footage in post. But it doesn't have an OLPF either, unlike the GH5s (which likely has the same sensor), so I'm afraid that moiré will remain an issue. A collerateral damage of the Pocket 4K's smaller sensor pixels will be dynamic range. Blackmagic advertises it as one stop less than the old Pocket. (And another question is whether using the camera at its second native ISO of 2500 will mean the loss of yet another stop of DR.) For the video that I posted here, this would have meant that the windows would have been completely blown out in all shots against the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brawley Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 42 minutes ago, cantsin said: The image of the old Pocket still has two weaknesses: moiré - if you watch the video carefully and in full resolution, you see it everywhere; resolution - with a native 1920x1080 Bayer sensor, the camera realistically just produces an optical resolution of about 720p. There are third-party OLPFs for the old Pocket that greatly reduce - but not eliminate - moiré, but they lower resolution even more. There's a chance that the 4k sensor of the new Pocket alleviates moiré with high-resolution lenses. No doubt the camera will produce excellent 2k/1080p when downsampling its footage in post. But it doesn't have an OLPF either, unlike the GH5s (which likely has the same sensor), so I'm afraid that moiré will remain an issue. A collerateral damage of the Pocket 4K's smaller sensor pixels will be dynamic range. Blackmagic advertises it as one stop less than the old Pocket. (And another question is whether using the camera at its second native ISO of 2500 will mean the loss of yet another stop of DR.) For the video that I posted here, this would have meant that the windows would have been completely blown out in all shots against the light. I think the general rule is about a 20-30% hit (in theory) when using Bayer sensor over true pixel resolution. I think that means the 1920 Bayer is more like 1440, not 720. The first 4K Red ONE was a 4 K sensor, that in theory was really about 3.2K (with an aggressive OLPF) and never measures on an optical resolution chart more than about 2.7K. So it arguably makes 4K RAW files filled with 2.7K resolution images. We can easily test this on a resolution chart with the pcoket, but moire also complicates where you count resolution from. To my mind the resolution hit of only a 1920 bayer is counter balanced by the substantially increased sharpness of no OLPF. I think it's more fair to say that the UN-OLPF'ED pocket mostly presents an image that really truely is 1920 in feel, with occasional moire (or a lot depending on your shooting style) JB Nathan Gabriel and webrunner5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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