Super Members Mattias Burling Posted February 21, 2018 Super Members Share Posted February 21, 2018 And Sony stil haven't been able to report profit on interchangeable lens still cameras. I seriously doubt Panasonic makes money when selling a GH5. It probably at loss as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Yeah, it seems the only companies making a profit in the mirrorless segment are Olympus, Canon and Fuji... and Fuji’s profits are lead by their Instax line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted February 21, 2018 Super Members Share Posted February 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, mercer said: Yeah, it seems the only companies making a profit in the mirrorless segment are Olympus, Canon and Fuji... and Fuji’s profits are lead by their Instax line. Yup. Leica is making money as well. Its actually so profitable that Blackstone was ready to get return on their investment. Talk about a successful placement from those guys. They saw the merited and well trained horse in the back that the crowed somehow missed, blinded by the flamboyant younger stallions in the front. mercer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Calabros Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 For full sensor readout they have to make a stacked BSI sensor, which they haven't made yet. You don't introduce your state of the art fab tech in a consumer body, do you? Unless a big surprise is coming. Honestly I'd like to see the surprise from Nikon.. because a surprise from the last one who enters the party will be dramatic :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 The question is: Can Canon even do a 6k or even 5k full pixel readout and do they have a scaling engine without getting the help from Sony? I dont think Canon has ever done more than a simple 1:1 deBayer to 4k ever in the past. Even Panasonic was stuck in 1:1 deBayer for 4k for years until they bought the GH5's IMX272 image sensor from??....wait for it............Sony!!! Tah..daaaa! SUDDENLY Panasonic could do full pixel 6k and 5k read out and do that beautiful Sony-style 5k to 4k scaling! Coincidence?....maybe. Maybe not. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 21, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted February 21, 2018 Teardowns have revealed a Panasonic chip in the 5D Mark IV I'm just not sure what it does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokara Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Digic 8 is the stills version of the DV6, which is in the C200 and XF400/405/XG10. It will have the same hardware capabilities for video, so the M50 will shoot 4K as 8 bit 150 mbps H.264. Likely 30p (the cameras with the DV6 do 60p, but those have active cooling), and probably a crop. FHD will be full sensor 60p 35 mbps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 21, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted February 21, 2018 6 hours ago, mercer said: Yeah, it seems the only companies making a profit in the mirrorless segment are Olympus, Canon and Fuji... and Fuji’s profits are lead by their Instax line. "For fiscal 2017, Fujifilm expects to set an all-time high in group net profit for the fourth consecutive year on strong sales of digital cameras." https://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Capital-Markets/Xerox-deal-raises-concern-about-financial-impact-on-Fujifilm "Sony operating profit seen jumping 80% this fiscal year - $4.5bn-plus figure would approach company record" https://asia.nikkei.com/Markets/Tokyo-Market/Sony-operating-profit-seen-jumping-80-this-fiscal-year "Globally competitive offerings are expected to drive significant earnings growth this fiscal year. Demand for smartphone image sensors is on the rise, along with sales of the PlayStation 4 game console. Pricey ultrahigh-definition 4K televisions and digital single-lens reflex cameras will provide further support." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted February 21, 2018 Super Members Share Posted February 21, 2018 Exactly, Sony cant seem to convert enough shooters to make money on the cameras. If they did they would brag about it. So my prediction still stands. Sony, Panasonic and Nikon. At least one has to go, sooner or later. (And of course Pentax but they are sadly not a player anymore. Even though the GRii is still a major success and their 360 cameras seems pretty popular.) Lets check in on the subject again in another year. Maybe by then 4K is a house hold standard. I was screamed at already three years ago because I didn't believe the majority of the worlds population would switch to 4K TVs within a year... things move slower than we wish on forums I say give it another 5-10 years, closer to 10. (Like the downfall of canon and the death of the DSLR, feels like thats been around the corner forever. Definitely longer than the death of film.. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 21, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted February 21, 2018 I think only Pentax is in real trouble, due to their parent company making huge losses on copiers. The rest are in rude health. Panasonic makes money on the GH5 series, mark my words they do. Seen the internal powerpoint! Nikon have faced challenges but still profit. Sony are riding a wave, read that Nikkei report - the cameras shore up their other profits, in addition to major sources of income like the PS4. We're not talking small numbers here. 4K is already a household standard, not much problem there. Obviously, old ladies are not buying them. Everyone else though... lapping them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yurolov Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I was in the japan recently and all the chinese tourists there were big on sony - I saw more sony cameras than I did canon. Can't say too much about the japanese as they weren't the tourists, but even where I am from sony has a big following with the chinese. Just read the M50 is not a m5 replacement. It will also be available in black and WHITE (I think we all know what this means). It will probably have highly compromised video specs. I think we will need to wait for the new iteration of the m5 with this processor to see what they will be willing to give us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: I wouldn't be surprised to see a 5x crop, 17Mbit MJPEG and 30i, which you have to deinterlace in post Got to stop all those C300 II PL mount owners being tempted by a compact! I really laughed out loud when I read this! My wife goes,.."whats so funny?" I tell her, "nah, there is no way you would understand if I told you"... I will literally bet my entire life savings and,...Hell, my very actual "life" that Canon is too terified to put any log gamma in this camera too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eoslover Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Mokara said: Digic 8 is the stills version of the DV6, which is in the C200 and XF400/405/XG10. It will have the same hardware capabilities for video, so the M50 will shoot 4K as 8 bit 150 mbps H.264. Likely 30p (the cameras with the DV6 do 60p, but those have active cooling), and probably a crop. FHD will be full sensor 60p 35 mbps. interesting, unveiled in a week anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: Yup. Leica is making money as well. Its actually so profitable that Blackstone was ready to get return on their investment. Talk about a successful placement from those guys. They saw the merited and well trained horse in the back that the crowed somehow missed, blinded by the flamboyant younger stallions in the front. That’s right, I forgot about Leica... a hair out of my price range, so I tend to forget they exist. Wish I could afford one though... their 3 year warranty is a great business policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliKMIA Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 15 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: And Sony stil haven't been able to report profit on interchangeable lens still cameras. 8 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: Sony cant seem to convert enough shooters to make money on the cameras. If they did they would brag about it. You have to be careful with this type of statement, there is no fact unless it's based on solid sources (internal reports or serious financial media). The best way to find out it to consult the Annual Report but the camera stuff are often buried or mixed with other products (e.g. the "other" in the second image below) in a specific business unit which makes it hard to visualize the precise breakdown. For instance, in April 2017 the imaging products and solution business was split out and began operations as Sony Imaging Products & Solutions Inc. (“SIPS”), which completed the sequential separation of Sony’s business units into distinct subsidiaries. That being said, the figures from the 2016 Annual Report (year end in march) indicates that Sony manages to generate a positive "Operating Income" but they don't indicate their actual net income or profit. In any case, with a positive operating income, they don't seem to bleed because of the camera business and they potentially end up with a green bottom line in this segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted February 22, 2018 Super Members Share Posted February 22, 2018 8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: 4K is already a household standard, not much problem there. Obviously, old ladies are not buying them. Everyone else though... lapping them up. Sorry but this I simply don't believe. On niche forums maybe. But I say not even 1 out of 200 you meet on the street regularly watch 4K content on a 4K TV. Most of them don't even watch 1080p all that often. 12 minutes ago, OliKMIA said: You have to be careful with this type of statement, there is no fact unless it's based on solid sources (internal reports or serious financial media). My source is Sonys "anual reports" (they haven't released proper once on years, are supposed to start this year) where they bake it in with other businesses since it's not strong enough. I haven't read Panasonic's latest one but in the last it looks they lost money on their cameras as well. Companies will tell you when they make a profit. Because it would raise the stocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntblowz Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 If its comes in 4K and around M6 price I might be in! To replace that 200D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliKMIA Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 24 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said: My source is Sonys "anual reports" (they haven't released proper once on years, are supposed to start this year) where they bake it in with other businesses since it's not strong enough. I haven't read Panasonic's latest one but in the last it looks they lost money on their cameras as well. Companies will tell you when they make a profit. Because it would raise the stocks. They do release the annual reports every year. That's a legal obligation by SEC rules. You can find them at: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/sec.html The "baking" is not specific to Sony, all companies gather the data in some general business unit. Canon is much worst than Sony as they put their DSLR sales in the "Imaging System" unit which encompasses the following: Interchangeable Lens Digital Cameras • Digital Compact Cameras • Digital Camcorders • Digital Cinema Cameras • Interchangeable Lenses • Compact Photo Printers • Inkjet Printers • Large-Format Inkjet Printers • Commercial Photo Printers • Image Scanners • Multimedia Projectors • Broadcast • Calculators http://global.canon/en/ir/annual/2016/canon-annual-report-2016.pdf For the rest, that's just your personal interpretation.... Sony does communicate about its global profits but there could be plenty of reasons why companies don't want to divulge the details of their financial results. You may be right or wrong but it's not exactly a silver bullet argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: 4K is already a household standard, not much problem there. I don't know anyone that owns a 4k television. Quote 16 percent of U.S. households now own a 4K UHD TV https://www.cedmagazine.com/data-focus/2017/05/cta-survey-shows-4k-uhd-tv-ownership-rise-united-states There are tons of 4k televisions for sale and it seems to me they are fazing out HD televisions at least for the medium to high end. I think pretty much all decent TVs that are being sold now are 4k. The problem is most people buy TVs so rarely. 18 minutes ago, OliKMIA said: The "baking" is not specific to Sony, all companies gather the data in some general business unit. Canon is much worst than Sony as they put their DSLR sales in the "Imaging System" unit which encompasses the following: True, but no one questions Canon's camera division profitability. I can walk into multiple local stores if I need to do a channel check on Canon. The same due diligence on Panasonic, Fuji, Sony, Olympus, Pentax, etc will make you want to put on a green visor and start digging through Q's and K's to find out what is really going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Sewell Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 8 hours ago, Cliff Totten said: I will literally bet my entire life savings and,...Hell, my very actual "life" that Canon is too terified to put any log gamma in this camera too. Why on God's green earth would they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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