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Panasonic GH5S brings massive low light improvement - exclusive interview and hands-on

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32 minutes ago, EthanAlexander said:

5a5796aeb4d10_ScreenShot2018-01-11at10_53_46AM.thumb.png.aafdc647d7dbdef6e2be6bbda135229f.png

I'm going to go ahead and say it's less the sensor than the processor that's making people think this is a FF killer. Without benefit of noise reduction it's very clear the FF advantage over M43 that @mercer and I were pointing out.  Not saying this isn't impressive, just think it's very unwise to purchase this camera on its low-light ability alone.

Having said that, it's very clearly a step up from the non-S:

5a57993adbb1a_ScreenShot2018-01-11at11_04_28AM.thumb.png.3148ef3a967f250d9084729dd4572ec7.png

That is pretty much exactly what I expected.

I see some are not happy that it isn't the match of the better FF cameras in low light but I would say it looks amazing in low light FOR an M43 sensor.

The other stuff for video is why you should buy the camera, that it is competing with some better APSC sensors for low light is the bonus.      I can see some adding a GH5s to a GH5 for lower light (than the GH5) instead of a A7sii with a GH5. 

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

One stop more sensitivity, TC, same DR and no IBIS for $500 more? OMG. 🤔

Jon, the point is not the 500 bucks plus, the principle instead. Give me a solid reason to justify the difference of price. Ah OK, the GH5S is a better suitable cinema camera. The price of materials...?? *rolleyes*

Their only reasonable excuse is the economies of scale.

But please, give us a break when someone pops up with the everlasting R&D argument. When the Panasonic man comes to honestly tell us both models were developed at same time.

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30 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

the extra $500 is the "you know you fuckin want it" tax.

LOL No more likes for today, I even had to remove a couple of them (sorry, Luke!)

Nice one Zak, exactly! I guess that's why I've already pre-ordered mine... hehe ;-)

 

In a more serious note now and in a word: business.

Let's accept that because I'd rather have them than some other competitors much less, I'd say, innovative business makers. That is, high bitrate, the 10-bit stuff, anamorphic support, Dual Native ISO at this price point, even 4K60p and so on. Balanced sellers feeling the market and their customers as much as these guys. For some reason, I'm writing this one here. Don't they say they listen their loyal basis? If not, someone will be in charge to address them the link :-D

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The A7S/II had messed up the usual 2 ISO steps difference between  FF and m43 and made it a 3.5 ISO stop gap. The GH5s has put it back on to normal ground now regarding DP RAW chart.The S has a 1.5 ISO step gain above the GH5, in video 2, making it possible to shot at ISO 6400 in lowlight, with over all better looking video  at ISOs up to 12800 in lowlight compared to the Sony A7s.

By the way, EXIF shows they used CC 2015 for the A7s and CC 2017 for the GH5s as their RAW converter.

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@Emanuel The market for the GH5s is far smaller than the one for GH5, hence the price difference. Also, you have to factor in that the sensor in the GH5 is used across many models. 

As for your concerns about IBIS, I can tell you with certainty that temperature affects the noise of the image, and placing a large heat sink on the sensor can give a much better image. For example, this is the heat sink that ursa mini is using:

N6ZndDu.thumb.jpg.280df528f2fdde3c80c753b7b65b9f23.jpg

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GH5S Advantages:

-Low light performance (obviously)

-Dual Native ISO (huge for both sensitivity and practical DR)

-While the total DR is similar, more of it is clean/usable, and highlights clip much more smoothly

-Improved color response

-14-bit sensor readout

-Timecode

-Multi-aspect sensor for reduced crop factor

-Better HFR

-No jitter from car mounts/gimbal motors/etc

-Slight improvement in battery life

GH5 Advantages

-IBIS (obviously)

-Higher stills resolution

-6K anamorphic

-Slightly sharper video

-$500 cheaper

 

GH5 is clearly a better hybrid, and has distinct advantages for hobbyists without support gear, but the S definitely gets me hotter under the collar. 

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@apekkpul, posted this in the other GH5s thread. I would like to hear your guys opinion about that read. Apekkpul posted this read from mysterybox the maker of the launch video below. They are stating 14 stops of dynamic range for the GH5 in the text below, being extracted from the VLOG-L profile. Maybe @maxotics, @Sage and @deezid could chim in as well with their knowledge:

https://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2018/1/8/panasonic-gh5s-hdr10

 

 

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4 hours ago, noone said:

That is pretty much exactly what I expected.

I see some are not happy that it isn't the match of the better FF cameras in low light but I would say it looks amazing in low light FOR an M43 sensor.

The other stuff for video is why you should buy the camera, that it is competing with some better APSC sensors for low light is the bonus.      I can see some adding a GH5s to a GH5 for lower light (than the GH5) instead of a A7sii with a GH5. 

Personally I'm really interested in the DCI 4k60p and 240fps HD the GH5s offers - and I own the a7sII. Judging by the dpreview test shot - its nothing special as a stills camera, the recent Fuji's and Sony's with the 24mp sensor are better stills cameras with better AF - and cost a fraction of the GH5s' $2500 price. The a7sII is even a better stills camera, but I only have 1500 clicks on mine as it just doesn't have as much detail as my XT2 or a7rII (obviously) - IMO its stills aren't anything special either.

As Ironfilm pointed out, Panasonic is doing the smart thing by chasing the niche's that CaNikon ignore. IMO, if Panasonic would add a top notch hybrid AF system, they could really put a hurt on the C1/200. Though Olympus and Fuji can't come close to Sony levels of AF-c, much less Canon's with the DPAF - so maybe that's a tougher nut to crack. I can live without IBIS (though I prefer it), but I'm not a fan of DFD at all. That's why I'll wait for used copies of the GH5s so I can take one for an extended test drive without losing any cash in the process.

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40 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

@apekkpul, posted this in the other GH5s thread. I would like to hear your guys opinion about that read. Apekkpul posted this read from mysterybox the maker of the launch video below. They are stating 14 stops of dynamic range for the GH5 in the text below, being extracted from the VLOG-L profile. Maybe @maxotics, @Sage and @deezid could chim in as well with their knowledge:

https://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2018/1/8/panasonic-gh5s-hdr10

 

 

From his explanation it is 16.6 stops with the 3-4 stop getting increasingly noisy, but 14 stops is usable. So depending on someone noise tolerance, it could be between 12.6 to 14 stop. The whole blog workflow is very interesting and very deep technically, so looks to be very credible.

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I'm pretty sure DPAF is a combination Canon sensor design and software, so don't see Panasonic being able to do that UNLESS/HOWEVER, now that they have two data channels coming from the sensor, for their dual ISO stuff, it's possible they could use one of those channels for better autofocus.  I'm shooting from the hip hear, but what the heck.  If something like that is possible they could perhaps get super fast auto-focus in 1080 or 30P 4K.  If something like that was possible, I believe it would take some time so can see why it wouldn't be available in the first model with that sensor design.  So maybe GH5S2 could have a new focus mechanism?  Another indication that it is something they're working on is the lack of IBIS.  Pretty sure that mechanism would confuse the focus issue.  Who knows?

Anyway @Trek of Joy  I think it smart to wait for the next model to plunk down yer sea shells.  It's a new sensor, my guess is that it's not completely built out yet.

 

 

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5 hours ago, noone said:

That is pretty much exactly what I expected.

I see some are not happy that it isn't the match of the better FF cameras in low light but I would say it looks amazing in low light FOR an M43 sensor.

The other stuff for video is why you should buy the camera, that it is competing with some better APSC sensors for low light is the bonus.      I can see some adding a GH5s to a GH5 for lower light (than the GH5) instead of a A7sii with a GH5. 

That DP Review chart is comparing photos, this is a video centric forum - when you compare the video of GH5s and the A7s from what I've seen up to iso 12800 maybe even 25000 the GH5s is a cleaner image and the colour doesn't fall apart in the same way the Sony does. From 25000 iso and above the Sony clearly takes over but how many people shoot at those crazy high isos? The Gh5s is better at iso levels where 99% of users will be using it  

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26 minutes ago, maxotics said:

I'm pretty sure DPAF is a combination Canon sensor design and software, so don't see Panasonic being able to do that UNLESS/HOWEVER, now that they have two data channels coming from the sensor, for their dual ISO stuff, it's possible they could use one of those channels for better autofocus.  I'm shooting from the hip hear, but what the heck.  If something like that is possible they could perhaps get super fast auto-focus in 1080 or 30P 4K.  If something like that was possible, I believe it would take some time so can see why it wouldn't be available in the first model with that sensor design.  So maybe GH5S2 could have a new focus mechanism?  Another indication that it is something they're working on is the lack of IBIS.  Pretty sure that mechanism would confuse the focus issue.  Who knows?

Anyway @Trek of Joy  I think it smart to wait for the next model to plunk down yer sea shells.  It's a new sensor, my guess is that it's not completely built out yet.

Not saying DPAF specifically, but a hybrid system with PADF like what Fuji, Sony, Olympus, and Nikon1 use - you know the rest of the camera industry.

3 minutes ago, ade towell said:

That's comparing photos, this is a video centric forum - when you compare the video of GH5s and the A7s from what I've seen up to iso 12800 maybe even 25000 the GH5s is a cleaner image and the colour doesn't fall apart in the same way the Sony does. From 25000 iso and above the Sony clearly takes over but how many people shoot at those crazy high isos? The Gh5s is better at iso levels where 99% of users will be using it  

I've seen people say similar things to "the colour doesn't fall apart in the same way the Sony does," but it looks like the gh5s is worse to my eyes. 

Screen Shot 2018-01-11 at 5.40.59 PM.png

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I gotta say, this almost seems like good news. Tough call, but I'd probably choose the GH5 over the GH5s, given the features. Even as an event / wedding shooter, the GH5 low light is likely fine. The GH4 typically does ok.

And the GH5s means those GH5 used prices are going to go down, down, down : )

Not to mention, I do like shooting stills occasionally. Better photo quality is a nice bonus. 

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59 minutes ago, dbp said:

I gotta say, this almost seems like good news. Tough call, but I'd probably choose the GH5 over the GH5s, given the features. Even as an event / wedding shooter, the GH5 low light is likely fine. The GH4 typically does ok.

And the GH5s means those GH5 used prices are going to go down, down, down : )

Not to mention, I do like shooting stills occasionally. Better photo quality is a nice bonus. 

There are a couple GH5's listed at $1600 on Fred Miranda's buy and sell boards - one comes with 5 extra batteries, a double charger and Vlog. 

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1525646/0?keyword=gh5#14317783

Not sure they're going to drop dramatically from there - 20% off in less than a year.

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