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jonpais

Say Your Goodbyes to V-Log Lite and Cinelike D

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Must say I was surprised how good HLG looked compared to VLOG. I just shooted yesterday some halloween clips with VLOG, and I wasn’t really happy with the results. Neatvideo is extremely slow, so maybe HLG is the way to go. 

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18 hours ago, Vesku said:

i found HLG vs VLOG low light comparison:

 

HLG seems to have way lower dynamic range than VLOG and very aggressive Noise reduction, and therefore way lesser visible noise. 

Plus I don't see much of a difference between the various ISO levels on HLG. Its almost like ISO 1600 and ISO 12800 have the same brightness. VLOG would require a lot of processing and time for Noise Reduction (Neat Video?). 

So the ONLY question would be whether there is really more details in the highlights and shadows beyond what is visible. I, personally, doubt it.

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@sanveer The 'Extreme Low Light Ultimate Test' tells us practically nothing. We know absolutely nothing about how it was shot, what color gamut was used or which NLE it was edited in. HLG rec. 2020 was developed for quick turnaround and was meant to be viewed on an HDR screen, whereas V-Log must first be graded and is for delivery in SDR. V-Log was never intended to be viewed SOOC. So viewing them side by side straight out of the camera on an 8 bit monitor, what point is there in that? Next, I'd never shoot beyond ISO 1600 with the GH5 anyway, but that's just me. In any case, shooting in pitch dark at ISO 12800 with a micro four thirds camera is pure lunacy. In the sample footage in my video above, I show just how good HLG rec. 709 can look at ISO 800 (as best as I can, since I'm not a professional colorist). I'm not seeing any aggressive noise reduction, at least when compared to other photo styles I'm familiar with, like Cinelike D. I've got no idea who this Off Greed person is, since they've got no work to show, whereas Nick Driftwood is a real shooter who shows how good HLG is with his HDR video Isobel. If you want to see how much better true HLG is, you've got to view his video on an HDR display. Paul Leeming is also a genuine person who's been working with V-Log Lite for years, and who now prefers hybrid log gamma, saying the rec. 709 version has a dynamic range similar to V-Log Lite.

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I totally agree with jonpais here. The most important point about 8-bit Youtube lowlight videos watched on SDR monitors is that they have nothing to do with DR at all, whether they are shot in LOG, HLG or what have you. 

First, capturing the noise floor means capturing bad signals. This is not about profiles. Then, even the best contemporary monitor to cover 709/RGB with only a hundred nits brightness wouldn't show you 0-16 from 0-255. That's because perceived DR is relative - you see more shades of grey only if the dark nuances are bright enough in comparison. That sounds weird, but black as being the total absence of light is extremely rare in nature. If something coming close could be manufactured on computer monitors/TV sets (see vantablack), it would not be used to recreate real life pixel values anyway.

For that reason, if the goal was to have a natural, lifelike rendition, it's wiser to raise the brightness. Physiologically, the human eye can't even see 10 stops of DR at a time, but, as I've read on a photographer's blog lately, the human *vision* is a contrast detecting apparatus, registering single photons (as poor signals as well), but protecting itself against too much light.

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Does anyone have a monitor that supports rec2020 to assess and grade this type of footage properly ? Is there a benefit of scaling rec2020 color to rec709 over shooting in vlog-l or cined ? Im interested in picking up a Gh5 to find out myself

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@kidzrevil While I haven’t done any testing myself, the advantage of shooting HLG rec. 709 over Cinelike D is greater dynamic range, as much as two extra stops.  If you wanted to go with rec. 2020, you’d probably want to pick up an Atomos Inferno (may also be used as a makeshift editing monitor, AFAIK), and if you don’t already own one, perhaps a wifi enabled HDR television set (for watching the HDR Channel on YT, etc.).

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This thread is about shooting Hybrid Log Gamma, or HLG, with the GH5, editing in rec 709 with the Leeming LUT and delivering in SDR. But for the crazy adventurous among you (I don't count myself there just yet!), here's everything you need to know about HDR video. It's pretty technical. Don't say I didn't warn you. Keep in mind however, that even if you're turned off by the complexity (and expense!), it still makes sense to begin shooting everything now in HLG, because it allows you to go back and grade for HDR at some point in the future. Rec 709, no. 8 bit no, no. One thing is certain - HDR is the new standard, it's not going anywhere. Just one more reason to dump Cinelike D ASAP.

Some of the information in these blog posts is already dated.

1. What is HDR video?

2. HDR Video Reference Hardware

3. HDR Video Terms Explained

4. Shooting for HDR

5. Grading, Mastering and Delivering HDR

 

 

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4 hours ago, jonpais said:

@kidzrevil While I haven’t done any testing myself, the advantage of shooting HLG rec. 709 over Cinelike D is greater dynamic range, as much as two extra stops.  

Might be a stupid question, but those stops are lost once the LUT is applied and thus the rec709 conversion has been done? Only makes sense if I want to store material that I might work on in the future?

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58 minutes ago, jase said:

Might be a stupid question, but those stops are lost once the LUT is applied and thus the rec709 conversion has been done? Only makes sense if I want to store material that I might work on in the future?

 

Not necessarily. Awesome acquisition boils down to fantastic Bluray REC709 pleasures, such as premium releases from Cirterion and others. HLG might give a more beautiful REC709 image, just like Arri CineLOG would give a better REC709 image for Bluray release than if  Starwars was recorded in Arri REC709 mode.

HLG might boil down to a more awesome delivered REC709 image than an acquired REC709 image. Same story as it has always been before, I assume. By the way the Natural REC709 profil in the GH5 is a thing of beauty as well. Colorwise GH5 is a beast. Oh, and its HD mode is really something too. Just saying. :)

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9 hours ago, jase said:

Might be a stupid question, but those stops are lost once the LUT is applied and thus the rec709 conversion has been done? Only makes sense if I want to store material that I might work on in the future?

First of all, there is no denying Hybrid Log Gamma has greater dynamic range than Cinelike D. Have a look at this dramatic example provided by Vesku:

Leeming LUT v501 for HLG is used to tone map the footage into a rec. 709 color space. Like V-Log, applying a corrective LUT in the timeline is not going to change the fact that it still has more dynamic range than the linear photo styles.

Here’s what Paul Leeming has to say about HLG:

The other bonus is that, as of v2.0 firmware for those with the GH5, there has been a new profile made available called Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG), which uses a highlight roll-off very similar to V-LogL to retain more highlight detail. Whilst it is designed for HDR televisions and the Rec2020 colour space, I have re-purposed it with a new HLG LUT to fit into the Rec709 space, while retaining all the dynamic range advantages.

Which reminds me, I’ve got to upload more grading breakdowns of some HLG clips.

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22 hours ago, jonpais said:

HLG would appear dark if it was actually edited in rec. 2020 but uploaded to YT as SDR. My hunch is the uploader has no idea what they’re doing...

Oh ok. Maybe youtube ruins the dynamic range during uploading. It's how regular 1080p looks terrible unless you upload it as 4k (its got something to do with the VP9 settingsfor YouTube).

Btw are there HDR videos on Youtube too? Also would I be able to tell the difference on an HDR smartphone screen? 

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