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Inazuma

Samsung NX1 vs Fujifilm X-T2 vs Nikon D5500 vs Sony a5100 shootout

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@mercer What do you mean hands down? not my hands!

There are so many tweaks, profiles, settings on the NX cameras that I doubt you can not achieve whatever pleases you.

Also there are scorns of plug ins and LUTs that simulate every single color or film profile ever made (almost).

The sensor of Fuji is the same 24MP sensor used by most 24MP cameras around, while the NX sensor is used only by 2 NX cameras and no one else, I would call that more original.

I consider myself a full grown up.

@Inazuma Sorry, I fail to see the huge difference you are referring to, I have a 27" color corrected 1440 monitor.

In the 4 cameras comparison I fail to see such a huge difference either (I was actually surprised at 3200ISO).

Are you shooting 800ISO 2f and 1600ISO 2.8f?

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3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@mercer What do you mean hands down? not my hands!

There are so many tweaks, profiles, settings on the NX cameras that I doubt you can not achieve whatever pleases you.

Also there are scorns of plug ins and LUTs that simulate every single color or film profile ever made (almost).

The sensor of Fuji is the same 24MP sensor used by most 24MP cameras around, while the NX sensor is used only by 2 NX cameras and no one else, I would call that more original.

I consider myself a full grown up.

@Inazuma Sorry, I fail to see the huge difference you are referring to, I have a 27" color corrected 1440 monitor.

In the 4 cameras comparison I fail to see such a huge difference either (I was actually surprised at 3200ISO).

Are you shooting 800ISO 2f and 1600ISO 2.8f?

I am glad to know you consider yourself a... full.. grown up???

So you consider hundreds of tweaks and LUTS the same as Fuji OOC colors?

But Seriously, I don't know why you go to all ends defending the NX1? It's as if I cursed your family name because I prefer Fuji colors to Samsung colors... I would think most people would. 

Honestly, Samsung made fine cameras. I enjoyed my time with the NX500. It was a fun camera with great ergonomics.

Do you have a Vimeo or YouTube page? I don't think I've ever seen any of your NX1 work. I would love to see what you're getting out of her. 

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@mercer I didn't offend anyone and I didn't tell you to "shut up", like you do.

sorry for the language mistake, I am sure your Greeks are worst than my English.

It is kind of childish that I have to prove that I have a bigger show reel than yours (which I do, by the way). 

Take a chill pill first, and if you have any facts to add to the conversation please do, I replied with 5 facts, and you with a personal attack and bullying.

Also, no one needs to know you dislike certain people, you can PM for that.

It is a cameras shoot out with the NX1 which I am using for a lot of years now, I have the right to express my experiences.

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5 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@mercer I didn't offend anyone and I didn't tell you to "shut up", like you do.

sorry for the language mistake, I am sure your Greeks are worst than my English.

It is kind of childish that I have to prove that I have a bigger show reel than yours (which I do, by the way). 

Take a chill pill first, and if you have any facts to add to the conversation please do, I replied with 5 facts, and you with a personal attack and bullying.

Also, no one needs to know you dislike certain people, you can PM for that.

It is a cameras shoot out with the NX1 which I am using for a lot of years now, I have the right to express my experiences.

Okay... I thought we were just having a discussion here. Unsure when I told people to "shut up" but whatever.

I wasn't asking you to prove anything, I was actually feeling a little nostalgic about my NX500... I just watched one of my old videos and I just figured you'd have a lot of material on hand.

Not that I really care about some made up person on the internet, but you are the one that comes out swinging at me every chance you have, and all I ask is how you can compare hundreds of tweaks and LUTS to Fuji's straight OOC colors, and I am the bully?

When did I ever say you didn't have the right to express your experiences? Seriously? When? I stated I thought the Fuji won and you replied to me. 

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@mercer Ok, I agree Fuji is great, I am very excited about them taking video seriously and I am looking forward for their next moves. Their APS-C cameras are serious ones and they seem to listen to their customers and I always enjoy their top execs interviews; very honest and good natured.

I just expressed my opinion that isn't "hands down", I was expecting much better results from Fuji. It is great, but NX holds its own. NX1 is a more complete camera than NX500 in every way. Also in my monitor I didn't see the "huge" difference I was expecting. Let's say, I think I saw a bigger difference with my friends a6300 in high ISO.

These days, is very difficult to NOT be happy with most cameras in photo and video (except maybe the lack of 4K from Canon, or some specific feature like 120frames slow motion, something that X-T2 have not, if I remember correctly, or something else). In my opinion (based in technical facts) the NX sensor is more unique than that of Fuji (which is manufactured by Sony and sold to others as well). It is made in house by Samsung, the first BSI ever made (September 2014, while Sony announced their a7Rii in June 2015), it still has the highest megapixel count ever for a APS-C camera (while Fuji had 16MP back then, Samsung had 28) with incredible fast readout (with 6.5K readout) etc Worth mentioning that its rolling shutter is 7.9ms in 1080p, and the most impressive thing, that not a lot know, is the excellent heat and power management that are capable of. I have failed to overheat these cameras, even the small NX500 in unbelievable conditions and continuous hours of video recording. These are the reasons I found it more original.

I shoot raw, and I use Lightroom for the rest, but I have some collections that have - in total - more than 2000 presets from the classic film stocks to whatever one can imagine (I never use them now, just saying), and something similar for video (again, I am not using them). That is what I said. It is not like choosing your film stock anymore, you can choose, manipulate, do whatever. Samsung's color profiles are really interesting too, unexpectedly, even. I use the NXs as hybrids (I mean, I equally care for photo and video), and dedicated video cameras for more advanced projects, NXs are for very very low budgeted video jobs and they have served me well for the last couple of years (knock wood). That's all. When I will be more happy with another hybrid camera, I will let you all know (be sure about that!).

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@mercer @Kisaha I envy both of you for having been able to shoot with the Samsungs! Samsung owners seem to be about the most diehard loyal fans of any brand from what I've seen around the forums here. Seb's tests made me want to sell all my Fuji gear last night, so I was understandably upset. 😟 As was reported in the news a few months back, "Samsung's billionaire chief is now in a jail cell with a mattress on the floor and no shower", and he deserves to be, for getting out of the prosumer mirrorless market! Samsung led the way with a great sensor and h265, and I'm sure many were hoping the GH5 would have h265 as well. The 16-50mm looks like a brilliant lens, too. I still can't get that Nepal video out of my head. Still, cameras don't exist in a vacuum, neither does image quality, and it's nice to know your camera will continue to get firmware updates and that an already great lens lineup is constantly getting even better. 

@Inazuma So, will you be keeping the Fuji?

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22 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@mercer @Kisaha I envy both of you for having been able to shoot with the Samsungs! Samsung owners seem to be about the most diehard loyal fans of any brand from what I've seen around the forums here. Seb's tests made me want to sell all my Fuji gear last night, so I was understandably upset. 😟 As was reported in the news a few months back, "Samsung's billionaire chief is now in a jail cell with a mattress on the floor and no shower", and he deserves to be, for getting out of the prosumer mirrorless market! Samsung led the way with a great sensor and h265, and I'm sure many were hoping the GH5 would have h265 as well. The 16-50mm looks like a brilliant lens, too. I still can't get that Nepal video out of my head. Still, cameras don't exist in a vacuum, neither does image quality, and it's nice to know your camera will continue to get firmware updates and that an already great lens lineup is constantly getting even better. 

@Inazuma So, will you be keeping the Fuji?

Yeah that Nepal video is gorgeous. Why don't you just order an NX500 from Seoul?They're fairly inexpensive on eBay... not the $350 I paid for mine new, but still not bad for a camera that is part of a cult classic line of cameras. 

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27 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yeah that Nepal video is gorgeous. Why don't you just order an NX500 from Seoul?They're fairly inexpensive on eBay... not the $350 I paid for mine new, but still not bad for a camera that is part of a cult classic line of cameras. 

Because Vietnam customs is the mafia - they can charge me any duties they like. Last year, I ordered an iFootage carbon fiber tripod for $575.00, customs wanted me to pay almost $4,000.00 in fees!

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Because Vietnam customs is the mafia - they can charge me any duties they like. Last year, I ordered an iFootage carbon fiber tripod for $575.00, customs wanted me to pay almost $4,000.00 in fees!

Yikes. That's rough. How about breathe some new life into the XT2 with some old lenses. A set of Contax Zeiss should do the trick... the 35mm 1.4 would probably sing with that Classic Chrome Profile. 

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@jonpais So.. I ended up sending the Samsung back.... and I'm also planning to sell the Fuji. I think both cameras frustrate me in different ways. I realised I've been spending too much time shopping around for gear that will suit what I might use it for rather than for what I will use it for. . So I've decided to simplify my life and just picked up a Sony RX1R II as my casual camera. And then I'll buy or rent for jobs as needed. I never really considered the RX1 before but I recently realised that for my use it's almost perfect.

 

For the record, my main video related gripes with the NX1 and XT2 are the poor 1080p modes which make me not want to shoot 60p. And the rolling shutter in 4k. Yes stabilisation is an option, but I don't think stabilisation should always be used. The problem is that the rolling shutter in these 4k cams makes handheld unstabilised footage just look like jello, instead of this nice organic feel:

 

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23 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

@jonpais So.. I ended up sending the Samsung back.... and I'm also planning to sell the Fuji. I think both cameras frustrate me in different ways. I realised I've been spending too much time shopping around for gear that will suit what I might use it for rather than for what I will use it for. . So I've decided to simplify my life and just picked up a Sony RX1R II as my casual camera. And then I'll buy or rent for jobs as needed. I never really considered the RX1 before but I recently realised that for my use it's almost perfect.

 

For the record, my main video related gripes with the NX1 and XT2 are the poor 1080p modes which make me not want to shoot 60p. And the rolling shutter in 4k. Yes stabilisation is an option, but I don't think stabilisation should always be used. The problem is that the rolling shutter in these 4k cams makes handheld unstabilised footage just look like jello, instead of this nice organic feel:

 

Yeah, the Fuji pretty much sits at home all day here. Still a little too shaky for me even on a gimbal, I would like to see something like a small 16mm f/2 for gimbal work, but don't even know if it's physically possibe. You're lucky if you can return the Samsung - in Vietnam, it's yours for good once you buy anything. Of course, I could buy online, but customs here...I'm just flying back to Saigon from KL this morning, made a day trip to buy another RodeLink. 😄 Still can't get that NX1 Nepal footage out of my mind.

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34 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

@jonpais So.. I ended up sending the Samsung back.... and I'm also planning to sell the Fuji. I think both cameras frustrate me in different ways. I realised I've been spending too much time shopping around for gear that will suit what I might use it for rather than for what I will use it for. . So I've decided to simplify my life and just picked up a Sony RX1R II as my casual camera. And then I'll buy or rent for jobs as needed. I never really considered the RX1 before but I recently realised that for my use it's almost perfect.

 

For the record, my main video related gripes with the NX1 and XT2 are the poor 1080p modes which make me not want to shoot 60p. And the rolling shutter in 4k. Yes stabilisation is an option, but I don't think stabilisation should always be used. The problem is that the rolling shutter in these 4k cams makes handheld unstabilised footage just look like jello, instead of this nice organic feel:

 

You probably should have bought a Digital Bolex then. Lol. 

But seriously I agree with you. I am going through a similar thought process. I have my 5D3 for any serious work but I'd like a run and gun camera for fun and spontaneous projects. I'm testing out an E-M5 Mark ii this week. If I get along with her, I may save up for an E-M1 Mark ii. It's the only 4K image I have seen lately that even remotely feels organic. But I'll probably change my mind next week. Lol. 

I posted this video on another thread, but I cannot get over how nice this video looks...

If I were a better colorist, the original a7s has some mojo as well...

 

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Also a lot of these guys are just naturally gifted colorists. AJ Molle has been making organic looking videos since the GH3 and LX3 and before. I struggle with color. I've watched tutorials and stare at the scopes and my stuff still looks meh. Those guys probably glance at the scopes once and then just adjust to eye. I wish I had that talent. 

This is another prime example. I think some of my better video was shot with the D5500. This guy posted this on the site a while ago... he shot it with the D5300. As good as I think my D5500 footage is, it doesn't even come close to the organic, filmic look captured and colored in this video...

 

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On 15/05/2017 at 2:50 PM, Inazuma said:

Ever since I gave up my Nikon D5200 a few years ago for the Panasonic GX7, I've been dearly missing one lens. The 17-50mm f2.8. I tried the 12-35mm f2.8 on the Panasonic but didn't like it. Then the Samsung NX1 came out along with the 16-50mm f2-2.8. At the time, it was way above my budget. So I've since considered other systems such as the Sony but for one reason or another, they didn't fit my needs. But now, over 2 years later, I've finally been able and willing to pick one up. Luckily as well, the camera body is entirely unused. The manufacturer sealing was still in place. 

One of the first things I do when I get a new camera is to compare it to my other camera(s) for things like colour, dynamic range and noise. I've made many such tests before but never usually post them. This time I've taken the time to do it properly and edit it together for all to see. 

First up is the X-T2 vs NX1 shootout. The main point of this was to see the differences in colour and tonality. See the video description for all the fine details on settings.

Some thoughts on the differences between the X-T2 and NX1:

  • AF-C and focus pulling with AF works much better on the older NX1 than the X-T2; in video anyway. 
  • The 16-50mm f2-2.8 is a ridiculously good lens, image wise. And the focus rings works just like a classic lens.
  • The grip and button layout of the NX1 is far better. I've always felt the retro styling of Fujifilm were a detriment to their functionality.
  • The downside to the NX1 is that it is far inferior to the XT2 in low light. The last shot in the shootout was shot at ISO 800 on the NX1 and 1600 on the XT2, yet the NX1 shows less detail and more muddiness due to the noise reduction. 
  • Also the NX1 is far sharper in 4k and HD but has more aliasing and moiré in the latter.

 

Anyway, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the difference between the images :) I'm yet undecided of which system to keep, even though the NX1 would finally fulfil my want.. or need of a 16-50mm f2.8. 

Ah my Manchester. Piccadilly Gardens. YOU SURVIVED! I'm surprised you didn't get robbed of both cameras :)

The 16-50mm F2-2.8 is indeed a superb lens, nothing has bettered it on APS-C since. Good job the crop cameras have Speed Booster, that's all I can say.

AF is great on the NX1, best you can get without going all out Canon Dual Pixel AF and downgrading your image :)

I also prefer ergonomics of NX1 to the X-T2, less fiddly.

The low light and dynamic range of the NX1 depends on a few settings. Several things help -

First set to RGB range to 16-235, otherwise you lose 2 stops dynamic range with horrible crushed blacks and clipping.

Try master pedestal at +15 at ISO 3200 to reveal lots of nice shadow detail, so you can consider dropping to ISO 1600 if you have a bright enough exposure (fast lens of course helps)

ISO 800 is incredibly clean, virtually same as ISO 200... Use it whenever possible. ISO 1600 and 3200 are acceptable under right circumstances.

The high bitrate hack (160MBit H.265 = 320Mbit H.264, woooo!) also improves the image further.

And no sensor crop, no short record length limit like X-T2.

Of course dial down sharpness to -10 on the NX1. You should almost never see moire in 4K but I do accept it can happen with certain things (if your lens is sharp enough!)

2 hours ago, Inazuma said:

@jonpais So.. I ended up sending the Samsung back.... and I'm also planning to sell the Fuji. I think both cameras frustrate me in different ways.

NOOOO you sent it back? They will be hard to find in future.

I have used a lot of higher end stuff... 1D C, 1D X II, GH5, A7S II and I honestly think the NX1 is more FUN to shoot with than any of them.

It may not have 5 axis IBIS, LOG, 10bit, full frame sensor, and granted those are all lovely, but they are luxuries and not having the video optimised ergonomics on the Canons, and having a slower, less responsive, weirder time operating the A7S II and GH5 is NOT as much fan as the swift little bird NX1.

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I realised I've been spending too much time shopping around for gear that will suit what I might use it for rather than for what I will use it for. . So I've decided to simplify my life and just picked up a Sony RX1R II as my casual camera. And then I'll buy or rent for jobs as needed. I never really considered the RX1 before but I recently realised that for my use it's almost perfect.

Good choice with the RX1R II, but consider the RX100 IV to accompany it - the slow-mo / video modes are superb.

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For the record, my main video related gripes with the NX1 and XT2 are the poor 1080p modes which make me not want to shoot 60p. And the rolling shutter in 4k.

Actually the NX1 with latest firmware and hack shoots pretty good 1080/120fps which only the Leica SL betters. For the price that is very nice and way better than 60p for slow-mo.

Unless you intend to shoot 60p for 60p and not for slow-mo... but then that isn't a very cinematic choice :)

A lot of cameras do acceptable 1080/60p quality... check out the D750 and A7S (original version in S35 mode) for instance.

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Yes stabilisation is an option, but I don't think stabilisation should always be used.

Did you try D.I.S. mode? The NX1 surprises when it is enabled on the 16-50 F2... Again a firmware Easter egg :)

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The problem is that the rolling shutter in these 4k cams makes handheld unstabilised footage just look like jello, instead of this nice organic feel:

I usually find poor stability ruins a shot before rolling shutter does.

When shooting from a tripod it's good to do slow pans and locked down shots, very cinematic.

NX1 isn't the worse for rolling shutter, it's merely average and I'd put the Sony A6300 and A6500 as the king of skew.

In 1080p the NX1 has an astonishing 2ms rolling shutter like an Alexa.

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The colours in this video will never fail to amaze me...

Really shows the analogue strengths of a CCD sensor for colour and a RAW codec.

But I really do think the NX1 gets you close and with way more fun and far less hassle.

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@Andrew Reid wow Andrew, you said it all dude!

I was considering selling everything NX (NX1/NX500/NX3000+lenses and accessories) and buy into GH5 and whatever Varicam Mini Lite Micro comes soon, but I think I will just keep them and used them until they melt.

I just recently started shooting 4K, and that opened a whole new world for me. Plus, the 28MP BSI sensor is still top APS-C sensor around for photography - a true hybrid camera- while battery/heat management/ergonomics (even the NX500 for its class is a breeze to use)/connectivity  are just top of the tops (perfect for 3 hours live performances, Saturday I shot one without changing  NX1 and NX3000 batteries, and barely used another NX500 one). They also record 73minutes straight and with good H265 file sizes (didn't changed any SD cards at all!). Selling everything buys me a GH5 and a couple of the good lenses. I prefer my 3 NXes and my collection of native lenses for the time being and the next couple of years I guess.

Not selling when the panic started late 2015 actually saved me more money, as people have changed 2 or 3 systems since then.

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51 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@Andrew Reid wow Andrew, you said it all dude!

I was considering selling everything NX (NX1/NX500/NX3000+lenses and accessories) and buy into GH5 and whatever Varicam Mini Lite Micro comes soon, but I think I will just keep them and used them until they melt.

I just recently started shooting 4K, and that opened a whole new world for me. Plus, the 28MP BSI sensor is still top APS-C sensor around for photography - a true hybrid camera- while battery/heat management/ergonomics (even the NX500 for its class is a breeze to use)/connectivity  are just top of the tops (perfect for 3 hours live performances, Saturday I shot one without changing  NX1 and NX3000 batteries, and barely used another NX500 one). They also record 73minutes straight and with good H265 file sizes (didn't changed any SD cards at all!). Selling everything buys me a GH5 and a couple of the good lenses. I prefer my 3 NXes and my collection of native lenses for the time being and the next couple of years I guess.

Not selling when the panic started late 2015 actually saved me more money, as people have changed 2 or 3 systems since then.

If the Rolling shutter had been better in 4K, and the low light AF in photo was usable, I would still be shooting an NX1. The Body design, the button layout, the ergonomics, the color, everything was just perfect on that camera.

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2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@Andrew Reid wow Andrew, you said it all dude!

I was considering selling everything NX (NX1/NX500/NX3000+lenses and accessories) and buy into GH5 and whatever Varicam Mini Lite Micro comes soon, but I think I will just keep them and used them until they melt.

I just recently started shooting 4K, and that opened a whole new world for me. Plus, the 28MP BSI sensor is still top APS-C sensor around for photography - a true hybrid camera- while battery/heat management/ergonomics (even the NX500 for its class is a breeze to use)/connectivity  are just top of the tops (perfect for 3 hours live performances, Saturday I shot one without changing  NX1 and NX3000 batteries, and barely used another NX500 one). They also record 73minutes straight and with good H265 file sizes (didn't changed any SD cards at all!). Selling everything buys me a GH5 and a couple of the good lenses. I prefer my 3 NXes and my collection of native lenses for the time being and the next couple of years I guess.

Not selling when the panic started late 2015 actually saved me more money, as people have changed 2 or 3 systems since then.

Obviously cameras are only so much of an investment, but if you've been thinking about selling your NX kit, now may be the time to do it while there is still interest. I would guess you are sitting on $3000 of NX kit... in a year that could only be worth $500 - $1000. That $3000 gets you nearly halfway to a C200.

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31 minutes ago, mercer said:

Obviously cameras are only so much of an investment, but if you've been thinking about selling your NX kit, now may be the time to do it while there is still interest. I would guess you are sitting on $3000 of NX kit... in a year that could only be worth $500 - $1000. That $3000 gets you nearly halfway to a C200.

Exactly, the value is so little, that it is not worth to buy anything else right now, while I have a 3 camera setup able to video most things, and take pictures of most things.

The C200 is on my radar for sure, but until I have a similar setup in Canon M (a professional M camera, and a smaller 4K everyday camera at least), then I am keeping NX. The cameras are making their money, and then some, so no reason to rush and get something inferior that I will change next year. There is no way 3 cameras and 8 lenses loosing 80% of their value in one year.

I am looking forward to move everything Canon, until then NX check most of my boxes while others do not.

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