Breaking: Fuji is developing ultimate APSC video camera

[jonpais]

I don't think it will be able to have IBIS if they stick with the X-Trans sensor.

Edit: it's not the sensor, it's the X-mount.

[Phil A]

3 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I don't think it will be able to have IBIS if they stick with the X-Trans sensor.

I'd hope they give up on X-Trans. I am a believer that it has no real value over regular bayer pattern. I read somewhere that it takes like 20-30% more performance to debayer, too, so I don't think X-Trans sensor is in our interest for video (heat, speed, etc.).

I really want Fuji to succeed, they are kinda my favorite camera manufacturer and I love what they have achieved both with the X series cameras as well as Instax. In my eyes they are on a really good track.

What scares me is where prices are moving towards. Look at X-T2 and Sony a6500 as aps-c systems. Fullframe even worse, the A7s II currently sells here at my favorite electronics store where I normally buy my stuff for 3799 $, the price has actually gone up instead of down even though the camera is from 2015. When I now consider what the 3rd generation A7 series or even a rumoured A9 will cost, I don't think I can justify that as a hobby. I can remember buying the Canon 5D III for like 3000 already shortly after it's release on a sale.

[jonpais]

4 minutes ago, Phil A said:

I'd hope they give up on X-Trans. I am a believer that it has no real value over regular bayer pattern. I read somewhere that it takes like 20-30% more performance to debayer, too, so I don't think X-Trans sensor is in our interest for video (heat, speed, etc.).

I really want Fuji to succeed, they are kinda my favorite camera manufacturer and I love what they have achieved both with the X series cameras as well as Instax. In my eyes they are on a really good track.

What scares me is where prices are moving towards. Look at X-T2 and Sony a6500 as aps-c systems. Fullframe even worse, the A7s II currently sells here at my favorite electronics store where I normally buy my stuff for 3799 $, the price has actually gone up instead of down even though the camera is from 2015. When I now consider what the 3rd generation A7 series or even a rumoured A9 will cost, I don't think I can justify that as a hobby. I can remember buying the Canon 5D III for like 3000 already shortly after it's release on a sale.

I thought the Bayer sensor in the GF-X was a sign they'd be abandoning X-Trans, but I guess not. Anyhow, I was wrong about IBIS, it's not the sensor, but the X-mount that prevents them from having IBIS. And apparently, they have no plans to introduce IBIS, since it would involve changing both the mount and their lens lineup. So highly unlikely. 

[Cinegain]

Yeah, don't think so either, so I'll probably end up sticking to M43. But I like the look, feel and performance up with APS-C. So... then what? Is Sony going to make an 180 and actually re-think their approach, maybe start an A70 line-up or something? Continuation of A6500-like specs (sensor does very well, everything around it sucks) but with more of a NX1-style body. Proper ergonomics, proper space to deal with heat and stuff? This year? But I guess that's the same kind of wishful thinking as Fujifilm having sensor stabilization... rather unlikely to happen. Any of these APS-C manufacturers could win me over with the right approach. Maybe they're just showing Panasonic mercy... 'we couldn't possibly do that, that's like taking candy from a baby, it's easy, but it's also mean and morally wrong'. Or responsible. Cavity prevention!

[wolf33d]

16 hours ago, Kisaha said:

@wolf33d so your sweet spot is everything (whatever), as 98%-99% of the camera systems out there are FF, or m43, or APSC!

My sweet spot is APS-C, plain and simple. Thin slice depth of filed with 1.8f lenses (which I really don't) - up to 28megapixels for crop purposes, close to cinema S35 for video.

If I can get an ok video performance out of medium format, that would be really interesting.

Of, course people can have different "sweet spots", I know people having a sweet spot for both blonds and red hair girls. Everything is possible in this world!

Lol, sensor Wise yes.

Spec wise my sweet spot is:

mirorless body/tilt screen/Canon menus, colors and AF/4k60p/1080@240p/IBIS 

Doesn't look to be 98% of cameras to me. I say my spot for sensor in video is M43/apsc/FF because any camera with one of these sensor size with the specs I mention would be my dream camera.

for photography though I need a FF sensor.  

[kidzrevil]

12 hours ago, Phil A said:

I'd hope they give up on X-Trans. I am a believer that it has no real value over regular bayer pattern. I read somewhere that it takes like 20-30% more performance to debayer, too, so I don't think X-Trans sensor is in our interest for video (heat, speed, etc.).

I really want Fuji to succeed, they are kinda my favorite camera manufacturer and I love what they have achieved both with the X series cameras as well as Instax. In my eyes they are on a really good track.

What scares me is where prices are moving towards. Look at X-T2 and Sony a6500 as aps-c systems. Fullframe even worse, the A7s II currently sells here at my favorite electronics store where I normally buy my stuff for 3799 $, the price has actually gone up instead of down even though the camera is from 2015. When I now consider what the 3rd generation A7 series or even a rumoured A9 will cost, I don't think I can justify that as a hobby. I can remember buying the Canon 5D III for like 3000 already shortly after it's release on a sale.

the price for these cameras are high as hell ! Technology is at the point where they can no longer justify those prices for reasons other than maintaining insane profits. One of these companies will buck the trend and start pumping out cheaper alternatives or we are going to see some kickstarter brand make something revolutionary and dethrone them.

Anyway im rooting for fuji as well ! If they ditch xtrans and put ibis in their bodies they have a winner on their hands !

[webrunner5]

14 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

the price for these cameras are high as hell ! Technology is at the point where they can no longer justify those prices for reasons other than maintaining insane profit managers. One of these companies will buck the trend and start pumping out cheaper alternatives or we are going to see some kickstarter brand make something revolutionary and dethrone them.

Anyway im rooting for fuji as well ! If they ditch xtrans and put ibis in their bodies they have a winner on their hands !

Yeah I agree Fuji is sort of drinking the Leica Koolaide as of late. They make some good stuff, but cult like stuff, well I think not to justify the price. China is going to hand their ass to them you watch.

I have never had a desire to buy any of their cameras, even film days ago. Do they make good stuff , well yeah, is it that much better, well not enough to take my money that I have ever seen.

[kidzrevil]

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah I agree Fuji is sort of drinking the Leica Koolaide as of late. They make some good stuff, but cult like stuff, well I think not to justify the price. China is going to hand their ass to them you watch.

I have never had a desire to buy any of their cameras, even film days ago. Do they make good stuff , well yeah, is it that much better, well not enough to take my money that I have ever seen.

I think they truly believe that cult like following is going to keep them afloat ! I truly believe these camera companies need to maintain a competitive mentality and lose the cult ideology ! make the tools more accessible

[webrunner5]

5 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

I think they truly believe that cult like following is going to keep them afloat ! I truly believe these camera companies need to maintain a competitive mentality and lose the cult ideology ! make the tools more accessible

Yeah Who in the hell needs a camera with 20 knobs on top to fondle. The Nikon Df was stupid enough, the hell with this retro stuff, I want a camera that is laid out well. Not silly stuff we had 30 years ago. Digital cameras are Way more complicated than old film cameras were.

[kidzrevil]

exactly ! They are appealing to their old audience and the nostalgic kids. Im personally into more innovative designs like what we have seen in the Panasonic bodies and the dead NX1.

[webrunner5]

57 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

exactly ! They are appealing to their old audience and the nostalgic kids. Im personally into more innovative designs like what we have seen in the Panasonic bodies and the dead NX1.

Yeah I have to give it to Panasonic with the GH- series, they have really pushed the body space to the max with what you need and nothing else. Their touchscreen, AF system, battery size, articulating LCD you name it has been in response to the customer, not some silly bastard that has never used a camera sitting behind a desk.

I just bought a new, yes new, still in the original box Panasonic AG-AF100AP video camera. It is laid out beautifully. It has, in a few test I have done, a hell of a Cine, Film look to it for the money you can buy one that is crazy to pass up. If I can't make a decent looking video with this camera I need to give it up.

Is it a Arri, well hell no LoL. but I will give Panasonic credit, they have all along, tried to help out the little guy more than any company along with BlackMagic trying also that I know of video wise.. We need to give them credit for that.

[webrunner5]

Now don't get me wrong about Fuji, I have drooled about Fuji MF cameras in the past, but guess what, I bought Mamiya cameras, a lot of them,  I even had several Hasselblads, never a Fuji. Mamiya was Way cheaper, not as slick looking, as petite, but built tough as hell, and they never let me down.

The Mamiya RB67 was in my mind the best MF camera ever built, hands down.

[jonpais]

Yeah, an ISO dial, shutter speed dial and an aperture ring on the lens - so 1970s! Virtually unusable. I want the camera to get out of my way, even tell me how to compose my pictures. I'm the smartphone generation. No decent X mount adapters either - just 30 or so all metal native lenses made in Japan. And a measly APS-C sensor. Who wants to shoot with a crop sensor camera? Why don't they just let all their employees go and move their factories to Vietnam so they can increase their profit margin? And provide jobs for rice farmers here. Leica wannabes is what they are - so pretentious - aside from Leica, making theirs the best built bodies in the mirrorless universe. Who cares about build quality when I'll be trading the body in every two years anyway. Always bragging about their 80-year history, too. I'll bet anybody with a high school diploma could build a better camera in their mom's basement. And how can they charge $1,600.00 USD for their 50-140mm f/2.8? Sure, it's insanely sharp, has no distortion, 23 elements, ridiculously fast focusing, but come on! It should only be like $100 tops. They're going to fail for sure.

[webrunner5]

18 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Yeah, an ISO dial, shutter speed dial and an aperture ring on the lens - so 1970s! Virtually unusable. I want the camera to get out of my way, even tell me how to compose my pictures. I'm the smartphone generation. No decent X mount adapters either - just 30 or so all metal native lenses made in Japan. And a measly APS-C sensor. Who wants to shoot with a crop sensor camera? Why don't they just let all their employees go and move their factories to Vietnam so they can increase their profit margin? And provide jobs for rice farmers here. Leica wannabes is what they are - so pretentious - aside from Leica, making theirs the best built bodies in the mirrorless universe. Who cares about build quality when I'll be trading the body in every two years anyway. Always bragging about their 80-year history, too. I'll bet anybody with a high school diploma could build a better camera in their mom's basement. And how can they charge $1,600.00 USD for their 50-140mm f/2.8? Sure, it's insanely sharp, has no distortion, 23 elements, ridiculously fast focusing, but come on! It should only be like $100 tops. They're going to fail for sure.

They are Not worth the money. They do nothing that any other camera can not do. The X trans sensor is silly as hell. You buy them, not me.

[jonpais]

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

They are Not worth the money. They do nothing that any other camera can not do. The X trans sensor is silly as hell. You buy them, not me.

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but neither are Sony's a7 series - but they're used by some of the best photographers in the world. An a7r II and G Master 85mm f/1.4 will set you back almost 5 grand.

[webrunner5]

Jon I know you have the XT2, I know it is a hell of a camera, and I know they have great lenses for them. I just could never afford them, or the average person can't either. If you can hell they are great, so is Leica, but each of them is not that much better for me to spend all I have money wise to justify them.

I see no real gain to having them other than well, I have one. OK I have a great camera so now I am going to take great pictures. Doesn't work that way you know it and I know it. But if I could afford them well I guess I would!

It is sort of like my dream to have a Arri Alexa. Hell am I going to take that much better videos with it. hmm, Dr is great, so that helps, but beyond that, which I could buy a shit pot full of lighting, or maybe learn to DO lighting better, is it going to make me a great film maker, I doubt it. It would be easier, well yes, and that is why top pros use it. Is it going to write a award winning script, take a award winning photograph, well no.

But I guess if a person has a lot of confidence in the product they use it does effect your outcome to a certain extent, which is a good thing to have.

[jonpais]

10 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Jon I know you have the XT2, I know it is a hell of a camera, and I know they have great lenses for them. I just could never afford them, or the average person can't either. If you can hell they are great, so is Leica, but each of them is not that much better for me to spend all I have money wise to justify them.

I see no real gain to having them other than well I have one. OK I have a great camera so now I am going to take great pictures. Doesn't work that way you know it and I know it. But if I could afford them well I guess I would!

It is sort of like my dream to have a Arri Alexa. Hell am I going to take that much better videos with it. hmm, Dr is great, so that helps, but beyond that, which I could buy a shit pot full of lighting, or maybe learn to DO lighting better, is it going to make me a great film maker, I doubt it. It would be easier, well yes, and that is why top pros use it. Is it going to write a award winning script, take a award winning photograph, well no.

But I guess if a person has a lot of confidence in the product they use it does effect your outcome to a certain extent, which is a good thing to have.

But doesn't the GH5 retail for $1,999.00 USD, and the best system lenses: the Leica 42.5mm f/1.2 $1,400.00, the Leica 12mm f/1.4 $1.300.00, the Olympus 25mm f/1.2 $1.200.00, and even the Leica 12-60mm f/2.8-4 purchased separately $1,000.00? A Metabones adapter + Sigma prime can run upwards of $1,600.00 and more. So I don't see much of a difference as far as pricing goes. Of course, you can buy slower, less expensive lenses... 

[webrunner5]

9 minutes ago, jonpais said:

But doesn't the GH5 retail for $1,999.00 USD, and the best system lenses: the Leica 42.5mm f/1.2 $1,400.00, the Leica 12mm f/1.4 $1.300.00, the Olympus 25mm f/1.2 $1.200.00, and even the Leica 12-60mm f/2.8-4 purchased separately $1,000.00? A Metabones adapter + Sigma prime can run upwards of $1,600.00 and more. So I don't see much of a difference as far as pricing goes. Of course, you can buy slower, less expensive lenses... 

That is Very true, that is why I just bought a brand new AF100AP for $996.55!!!! I can't afford that stuff, I am retired, and I never really could, well I could when I was younger, but I was also into sporty cars, and fishing boats, photography, etc. all at the same time, not counting having a family..

[jonpais]

Just now, webrunner5 said:

That is Very true, that is why I just bought a brand new Af100 for $996.55!!!! I can't afford that stuff, I am retired, and I never really could, well I could when I was younger, but I was also into sporty cars, and fishing boats, photography, etc. all at the same time.

When I lived in South Korea, people would look at me like I was crazy if I told them I spent so much as $15.00 for a Korean language book. And in Vietnam, people think I'm rich because I pay $300.00/month in rent. So I guess everything is relative.

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, Phil A said:

 

What scares me is where prices are moving towards. Look at X-T2 and Sony a6500 as aps-c systems. Fullframe even worse, the A7s II currently sells here at my favorite electronics store where I normally buy my stuff for 3799 $, the price has actually gone up instead of down even though the camera is from 2015. When I now consider what the 3rd generation A7 series or even a rumoured A9 will cost, I don't think I can justify that as a hobby. I can remember buying the Canon 5D III for like 3000 already shortly after it's release on a sale.

Agreed! Same with GH3 => GH4 => GH5 pricing!