Jimbo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hi All, Does anyone have any experience with 360 degree cameras? I have zero but I've had an enquiry from a client who is after a 360 video. Anyone know which produce the best quality footage and the pros and cons to bear in mind when choosing one? Cheers, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdouthit Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I have a GoPro OMNI. 360 video can be a hassle to get right. Especially be careful with parallax issues. The OMNI, for example, needs a minimum of 4 feet on all sides, so tight spaces are a problem. The Samsung 360 is okay for a single camera solution, but I'd pause before offering it as a professional offering. The market needs to mature. For top quality you're looking at $50k USD and up for a system. Jimbo and Kisaha 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Forsman Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 We shoot a lot of 360 video on movie sets now, to capture behind the scenes. Our workhorse is the Nikon KeyMission 360. it's two 4K cameras. the overlap isn't that great so stitchig them together can be imperfect. but it's a good simple solution. Next step up is the Nokia Ozo ($45k). And most of what's in between are custom built rigs. But stitching those cameras together can be a big pain in the ass -- at the same time, having more overlap let's you hide things like the camera operator, etc. Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I agree with the previous two post. Basically you have the Samsung gear 360 and the Nikon KeyMission 360 as consumers and easy to use solution. You can create okish quality content that can still generate the wow effect if the subject/story is great but technically the result is far away from pro quality that we are used on video today. The potential is there but is just too early at this price point (200-500 USD). I have and use quite a bit the Samsung 360 and for the price is good for learning and producing some experiment. Next is the Gopro OMNI that produce better quality video but there is a much more work in the process. Cost around 5k USD Then Nokia Ozo that is probably today the best quality but is very expensive at 45k USD First thing to do IMO is to grab a google cardboard and look at many YouTube 360 videos available done with these cameras to get an idea. You need a phone with a great screen and remember to set the quality of the YouTube video to 4k before putting it in to the cardboard. Normally it defaults to a lower resolution. This is a good one to start watching (cardboard required to get a real feeling of the potential of 360 videos) this one was done with 6 Gopro's similar to the Gopro OMNI rig: Zak Forsman and Jimbo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markr041 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 No, those previous post ignore the best alternative less than thousands of dollars and significantly better than the Nikon Keymission and the Samsung Gear 360 - the Kodak 360 4K dual. Test after test confirms this. For a good 360 blog, see 360rumors.com. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1235855&gclid=CKqv-P7AxdICFZaPswodvmQLPQ&is=REG&ap=y&m=Y&c3api=1876%2C92051677442%2C&Q=&A=details Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 The Kodak is in the same ball back as the Nikon and Samsung basically a consumer quality camera that is far away from what professional work would require. Significantly better is a bold statement that I really do see and it has even more issues with stitching due to the cameras being more far apart. It is also cumbersome not being an integrated device but two separate ones with two cards two batteries..... Here a test between these cameras: http://360rumors.blogspot.com/2016/11/4k-360-video-camera-shootout-samsung.html Anyway it was a first good approach but it is at end of life, in fact Kodak has created a new model that removes the biggest flaw of the one that you recommend creating a single device with dual cameras like the samsung and nikon: https://kodakpixpro.com/Americas/cameras/vrcamera/orbit3604k/ But again all these consumers "dual" camera are not that great so I would spend less than possible for example 200 USD for the Samsung and experiment and once mastered the challenges of 360 video move up to a more professional rig. Samsung needs a Samsung phone to remotely control it but you can use it even without a phone as I do because it has a menu system in the camera. Nikon is more compatible with many phones but it has a challenging wificonnection and is more expensive. Also the Nikon does the stitching in the camera that has the advantage of convenience but you loose the flexibility to use 3 party software for better stich. Quality wise are very similar. I have a Samsung my colleague a Nikon. Apparently Samsung is about to update their 360 camera in the next month but at the moment is a rumors. For better quality you would need a 6 cameras rig that creates a 8k video and then have an 8k delivery platform. 4k for 360 video is not enough because you see only part of the sphere and you are zoomed in. Insta360 has created Pro 8K 360 around 3k usd that sounds like a possible step up but we need to see how it perform in real life.... http://www.insta360.com/product/insta360-pro/ Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy lee Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Nick Driftwood has built a 360 rig from 6 x gx7 and another rig from 6 x gh4s , making a 12k stitched image , I was talking with him last week about this , checkout his site dirftwood 360 , you dont need 4k cameras as you can stitch 6 x 1080p cameras Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 Guys, thank you all, some awesome information here for me to research. I wasn't sure I'd get much response but this forum delivered again. I like the idea of testing the client's concept with a cheaper consumer product first. Will let you know how I get on and if I have any more questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I am interested in this matter as well, but it seems there is a long way to go, definitely we need 8K workflows to see this thing shine. I have an enthusiast friend, and after using all the cheap 360 on the market kept the Samsung one as the most convenient. He saw me footage of a few of them and everything was disappointing from my point of view (S35 and APS-C supporter here!), and I find ALL the action cams footage disappointing too. Maybe for the extreme sports generation they are enough. @rdouthit I am eyeing the Omni for some time now, but I haven't explore the market over here to see if there is a need for such a substantial investment (for a small market). Can you tell us some things about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdouthit Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Kisaha said: I am interested in this matter as well, but it seems there is a long way to go, definitely we need 8K workflows to see this thing shine. I have an enthusiast friend, and after using all the cheap 360 on the market kept the Samsung one as the most convenient. He saw me footage of a few of them and everything was disappointing from my point of view (S35 and APS-C supporter here!), and I find ALL the action cams footage disappointing too. Maybe for the extreme sports generation they are enough. @rdouthit I am eyeing the Omni for some time now, but I haven't explore the market over here to see if there is a need for such a substantial investment (for a small market). Can you tell us some things about it? Sure. You have to re-flash all 6 gopro cameras so they are unusable as normal cameras. (Can be flashed back, but it's cumbersome) Managing the data cards from 6 cameras is a pain. It comes with tweezers so you can pull the cards out. Managing power means plugging in all 6 cameras separately when in the rig to recharge their internal batteries. Nice thing is they are all synchronized for start/stop recording, but with each one having it's own power -- problems can occur. Note: you can get it with a V-Mount, but only if you buy it as a complete $5000 kit. If you have V-Mounts already, you CANNOT buy the power cable separately. Many have fried their OMNI units trying to jury-rig or buy a "compatible" cable for V-Mount power. It's annoying that GoPro doesn't sell these cables separately. Other GoPro array systems exist, but without a hardware sync, you have to deal with aligning them in post, which is a pain in a real production environment. The software does an okay job stitching, but I expected it to be better for the amount of money spent. I plan to sell mine (without cameras, just the rig). I just haven't gotten around to listing it on eBay. It's actually pretty good for where we're at right now with surround-video. But you have to avoid enclosed spaces, and since we do mostly cars, that's more of an issue for us. Kisaha and Jimbo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 That's what I thought, for people don't make any money from it, or ain't rich, the tech is not mature right now. Maybe I'll be waiting for the next Samsung, it will have HEVC as well (that is a guided comment for another thread!), in general I am in stand by mode, in everything, only sound is a certainty in this business! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 On 08/03/2017 at 11:11 PM, rdouthit said: Sure. You have to re-flash all 6 gopro cameras so they are unusable as normal cameras. (Can be flashed back, but it's cumbersome) Managing the data cards from 6 cameras is a pain. It comes with tweezers so you can pull the cards out. Managing power means plugging in all 6 cameras separately when in the rig to recharge their internal batteries. Nice thing is they are all synchronized for start/stop recording, but with each one having it's own power -- problems can occur. Note: you can get it with a V-Mount, but only if you buy it as a complete $5000 kit. If you have V-Mounts already, you CANNOT buy the power cable separately. Many have fried their OMNI units trying to jury-rig or buy a "compatible" cable for V-Mount power. It's annoying that GoPro doesn't sell these cables separately. Other GoPro array systems exist, but without a hardware sync, you have to deal with aligning them in post, which is a pain in a real production environment. The software does an okay job stitching, but I expected it to be better for the amount of money spent. I plan to sell mine (without cameras, just the rig). I just haven't gotten around to listing it on eBay. It's actually pretty good for where we're at right now with surround-video. But you have to avoid enclosed spaces, and since we do mostly cars, that's more of an issue for us. Hi @rdouthit Thanks for your post man. It does sound like an intensive workflow! It might be worth it for this particular client as the commercial applications should pay off for them. I've watched a lot of videos now and it does look like the 6 x GoPro 360 rig option will produce the best possible image clarity short of going the Nokia route. Image quality, particularly detail, is important for the job. I can see that 8K (as much as the filmmakers in us groan whenever we talk about upping the megapixels!) will be an important evolution for this surround tech. I might be interested in buying your OMNI off you? PM me with what you're looking for if you like. I'm going to research the other 360 rigs like the Freedom 360 too. Would you say stitching in post or pre-production setup of the OMNI is easier? I appreciate you could be biased as you're trying to sell your OMNI ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 @Jimbo No megapixel argument here, even though the best possible 1080p you can deliver is sufficient for 90% of the jobs (95% in my case), 360 is a completely different animal. 1080p with a 50mm lens, is just that; a 360 video, is unbelievably many 50mm lenses all around you! It has nothing to do with pixel peeping or GAS, 360 - and virtual reality stuff - will need as much as resolution possible, and soon, but I believe it is somehow early for optimal performance and cost/performance ratio. If you are getting the dough, then a used Omni rig is your best bet! Report back with your findings, this topic will keep us interesting for the near future I believe. Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdouthit Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 On 3/9/2017 at 3:47 AM, Jimbo said: Hi @rdouthit I might be interested in buying your OMNI off you? PM me with what you're looking for if you like. I'm going to research the other 360 rigs like the Freedom 360 too. Would you say stitching in post or pre-production setup of the OMNI is easier? I appreciate you could be biased as you're trying to sell your OMNI ;-) We have a Freedom 360 mount as well, and prefer the OMNI. The ability to have frame-accurate video sync is HUGE for any professional workflow. Though once the video is shot, you then need to stitch it up using the free stitcher, which does a decent job 90% of the time. However, if you want to customize the stitch (and you really do) then you need to get a real stitcher like Pano Video (the official supported app) or go with something cheaper but more challenging like PTGUI. I'd be hesitant to sell to the UK since it comes with a rather large hardshell case (slightly smaller than a Pelican 1510) that will be expensive to ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 13 hours ago, rdouthit said: We have a Freedom 360 mount as well, and prefer the OMNI. The ability to have frame-accurate video sync is HUGE for any professional workflow. Though once the video is shot, you then need to stitch it up using the free stitcher, which does a decent job 90% of the time. However, if you want to customize the stitch (and you really do) then you need to get a real stitcher like Pano Video (the official supported app) or go with something cheaper but more challenging like PTGUI. I'd be hesitant to sell to the UK since it comes with a rather large hardshell case (slightly smaller than a Pelican 1510) that will be expensive to ship. Thanks for the info @rdouthit No problem, I am on the verge of pushing the button here. Only hesitation is that you mentioned about the minimum recommended filming distance and your trouble in cars. I think this is going to be a problem for our filming too. Does it make car work impossible? Guessing it affects the ability to stitch smoothly? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdouthit Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 3 hours ago, Jimbo said: Thanks for the info @rdouthit No problem, I am on the verge of pushing the button here. Only hesitation is that you mentioned about the minimum recommended filming distance and your trouble in cars. I think this is going to be a problem for our filming too. Does it make car work impossible? Guessing it affects the ability to stitch smoothly? Thanks in advance. For car interiors you need a minimum 7 camera system or just use a Samsung Gear 360 until something better comes along. Jimbo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markr041 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 On 3/7/2017 at 6:21 PM, Kisaha said: Maybe I'll be waiting for the next Samsung, it will have HEVC as well (that is a guided comment for another thread!), in general I am in stand by mode, in everything, only sound is a certainty in this business! The current Samsung Gear 360 uses HEVC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 @markr041 that is why I said "it will have HEVC as well", and I expect it to be fine for us to reach year 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 A right of Yi 4K action cameras is a good combo for high quality but low cost 360VR option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurijTurnsek Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 http://www.gsmarena.com/new_samsung_gear_360_appears_in_fcc-news-23992.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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