syrcular Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 Wow! Some really interesting perspectives. This is great! Here are some of my thoughts/questions... Fuji X-T2 - I actually have one on pre-order to replace my X-T1, for my stills work, and excited to hear about it's upgraded video capabilities, but after looking at all the video test footage that's been posting online, I wasn't too impressed by the image quality. Sure it looked clean and 4K like, but I felt like motion rendering was a bit weird on that camera, and I felt like it had that "high shutter speed" motion look, even when the shooters were shooting in the right shutter speed for 24p. It makes for a very video look to it, that I don't enjoy. Adding the FujiFilm Simulations, looked like it helped a lot and sounds fantastic, but I didn't find the videos to be aesthetically pleasing to me. But that's just me and more of an image preference thing. My go to for image quality in video tends to look more towards how motion is and how fluid and filmic it looks. I often feel this characteristic alone, determines whether it looks like your shooting on a DSLR or cinema camera. And this case, I felt like the footage looked very DSLRish..... 5D Mark III with ML - I'm intrigued by this option but also afraid. I've installed Magic Lantern before on my 5D and didn't have much luck with stability. I found that there was many contrasting tips on how to run a stable ML camera and workflow setup, and found the resources and information quite confusing online. The last time I ran a "stable" build, I had issues with white balance. Regardless of my WB settings, my footage would come out orange. Of course I could correct it in post, but I also had issues monitoring through my LCD with accurate exposure. I'd be curious to here if there's a tried and true way to setup and run the 5D Mark III with Magic Lantern, where I could be getting more stable operation. I do however agree with some of the posters mentioning the workflow concerns, and instability in a more critical shoot situations. I often times will be directing and DPing, so I want to have the most reliable and stable camera system, so I can focus on the creative aspect of the shoot. But for those that have had success with ML, I'd love to hear your tips, as I love the idea of keeping this 5D and making it better! C100/C100 Mark II - I'm very intrigued by this option, after hearing all the praises on this camera from this thread! It seems to answer a lot of my bullet points, and image quality seems to be at the top of it's game as well as reliability and functionality. It seems like the best option for just firing up the camera, knowing when you hit record, it records, and it just does what they say it does. No extra secret features to unlock! Post seems equally easy on it, and if I want to bump up the quality even more, then I can slap an external recorder on it. I also have to admit, I like the ergonomics of this camera the best. It seems like it's just substantial enough to run and gun with your hands, but also big enough to rig up on the shoulder or a stablizer. It also has that professional look and for the occasional time, I get hired to shoot on a gig, I feel like clients will dig it. I am concerned about it's lack of 4K capabilities at that price point, though which is why I've hesitated on it. I swore off 4K shooting for a long time, thinking I would never need it, but after shooting 4K on the C300 Mark II, I was really pleased at the quality, and re-framing capability. With all these other cameras from the 1-3K price range, they all seem to have 4K now, so I'm just worried about investing 3-4K in a HD only camera. But it seems that the other options, come at other compromises that may be more detrimental in the shooting process and that the C100's image quality and reliability make it the best choice? Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Coffee Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 For me the real killer feature of the C100 mk2 is the DPAF Shield3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 3 hours ago, syrcular said: I am concerned about it's lack of 4K capabilities at that price point, though which is why I've hesitated on it. I swore off 4K shooting for a long time, thinking I would never need it, but after shooting 4K on the C300 Mark II, I was really pleased at the quality, and re-framing capability. With all these other cameras from the 1-3K price range, they all seem to have 4K now, so I'm just worried about investing 3-4K in a HD only camera. But it seems that the other options, come at other compromises that may be more detrimental in the shooting process and that the C100's image quality and reliability make it the best choice? Thoughts? Yup that was pretty much my thought process. would much rather have a no fuss C100 with excellent 1080p IQ, great assist features (love the waveform view), shutter angle/gain levels, ND filters, XLRs, C-LOG & Wide DR PPs and last but not least the game changing DPAF.. also keep in mind it doesn't do 4K but uses the same sensor as the C300 and is 4K down sampled to 1080 image. it's a lot sharper then the soft 5D3 and actually holds up ok in full screen on a 4K monitor. when the time comes in a year or so, there will be plenty of 4K options to upgrade to with perhaps not all the compromises of these early gen hybrid cams.. plus yeah it does look the biz and i don't have clients looking at me funny like when using most DSLRs/mirrorless cams heh! Shield3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronChicago Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 6 hours ago, Inazuma said: I had the camera for half a year and used the hell out of it. I had no problems exposing etc. You can gargle numbers at me all you want but I test the shit out of all my cameras and really found no discernible difference in DR. And ergonomics are subjective of course but the LCD/viewfinder were inferior to even my lx100 ( and I was using the mark ii not I) I agree. I owned it for about a year as well and loved the DPAF. Just couldn't ever get a rich image out of it. Not saying it's impossible b/c I've seen some great looking stuff from it, but for the price, i dont know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rak_heri Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 With its recent price decrease ($3999 new), the C100 mk2 makes sense. It doesn't have the best image, resolution but it "just works". And you don't have to dress it up like most DSLRs or mirrorless with bits of ND solutions, audio recorder, monitor, recorder here and there. I'm also a personal fan of Canon colors, esp on skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 The origi a7s is still very detailed 1080p, equally nice crop mode for s35, and slog for less of an investment than a c100. If you enjoy the image from sonys, which not everyone does, they really do offer a lot. You lose 4k and ibis from it's big brothers, but that's about it. it's a little better in some ways even. (Did the a6000 get an slog upgrade, or did I dream that? Still pretty nice image from that) Maybe ls300, but that's pushing the price range as well.. maybe a better fit than the c100 though. Nx1 with Andrew's log lut is really nice, but maybe a little videoy sometimes like the gh4. Gh4 vlog kiiinda needs an external recorder (but Andrew log lutted that cam as well ). Of blackmagic cams, probably you'd prefer the bmcc for resolution and battery and real s35 size sensor when speedboosted, but it's a bit of a brick (with an amazing image). Are you sticking with your current lenses? For lens compatibility I have like no idea what would be second best... (after c100) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syrcular Posted July 8, 2016 Author Share Posted July 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, Liam said: The origi a7s is still very detailed 1080p, equally nice crop mode for s35, and slog for less of an investment than a c100. If you enjoy the image from sonys, which not everyone does, they really do offer a lot. You lose 4k and ibis from it's big brothers, but that's about it. it's a little better in some ways even. (Did the a6000 get an slog upgrade, or did I dream that? Still pretty nice image from that) Maybe ls300, but that's pushing the price range as well.. maybe a better fit than the c100 though. Nx1 with Andrew's log lut is really nice, but maybe a little videoy sometimes like the gh4. Gh4 vlog kiiinda needs an external recorder (but Andrew log lutted that cam as well ). Of blackmagic cams, probably you'd prefer the bmcc for resolution and battery and real s35 size sensor when speedboosted, but it's a bit of a brick (with an amazing image). Are you sticking with your current lenses? For lens compatibility I have like no idea what would be second best... (after c100) I'm not a fan of the original A7S as i found the slog profiles to be REALLY noisy, compared to other log profiles and footage I've worked with on Arri, BM and Canon. However I did see marked improvement in the slog profiles in the area of noise with the A7S II. The image was quite nice actually and certain profiles definitely got rid of the signature greenish cast you see in Sony footage sometime, so it definitely looks like Sony is aware and working on it. But...my biggest gripes with the Sony DSLR cameras, such as the A7series, was that it just didn't hold up like the 5D on a lot of more practical features. For instance, battery life was pretty bad. I know that all mirrorless systems, suffer from that compared to the Canon DSLR's but those Sony's ate batteries for breakfast lunch and dinner! Also of all the mentioned cameras, I often struggled with judging exposure especially when using Slog 2 or 3. I felt like there were'nt enough tools to help judge exposure, and the rear LCD was not so accurate. I think connecting an external monitor, would probably help in this. Also I hear there are overheating issues, as well. So although it produces probably the best image quality from the DSLR/Mirrorless camera department, I felt like it wasn't as sturdy and plug and play as Canon. I also had a lot of trouble getting my Canon glass to play nice consistently with the Metabones. But with all of that said, I felt I was acheiving some very nice footage, but I think I had to work a little harder to achieve it. I have Canon EF and FD glass. Given that both adapt well and are compatible with most cameras, I was thinking about keeping my Canon lenses for now. I think the EF Blackmagic models, play well with them, and work natively without any metabones. The more I read and discuss on this thread, the more I'm feeling like the C100 Mark II might be the camera for me. It's a little more expensive, but it seems to have all the checkmarks, except for 4K, and I guess if 4K were to come up, I could always borrow or rent to accomplish that particular project, and as previously mentioned, it's the same sensor as the higher end Canon C series cameras. It's making a lot more sense..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 5 hours ago, Liam said: (Did the a6000 get an slog upgrade, or did I dream that? Still pretty nice image from that) Sadly no... Otherwise I'd buy one! The big upgrade via firmware that the A6000 got is XAVC-S Liam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squig Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 20 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: Imo all the Raw camera I've tried looks great already in Rec709. BMCC included. I found the colors on the BMMCC to be a little off. I was doing some low light tests and yellow went orange. Same setup with the 5D raw the color was perfect. 17 hours ago, syrcular said: 5D Mark III with ML - I'm intrigued by this option but also afraid. I've installed Magic Lantern before on my 5D and didn't have much luck with stability. I found that there was many contrasting tips on how to run a stable ML camera and workflow setup, and found the resources and information quite confusing online. The last time I ran a "stable" build, I had issues with white balance. Regardless of my WB settings, my footage would come out orange. Of course I could correct it in post, but I also had issues monitoring through my LCD with accurate exposure. I'd be curious to here if there's a tried and true way to setup and run the 5D Mark III with Magic Lantern, where I could be getting more stable operation. I do however agree with some of the posters mentioning the workflow concerns, and instability in a more critical shoot situations. I often times will be directing and DPing, so I want to have the most reliable and stable camera system, so I can focus on the creative aspect of the shoot. But for those that have had success with ML, I'd love to hear your tips, as I love the idea of keeping this 5D and making it better! Thoughts? I've never come across or even heard of the WB problem. The last major "pink frames" bug was fixed in April. The only other problem I've had is it sometimes locks up if you do a random button press, but the devs have addressed this too recently I believe. I've never had the MK3 raw fail on me on a shoot. Most problems are related to bad or too slow CF cards. Workflow is really easy with MLVFS, no transcoding necessary with Resolve. I transcode to prores in After Effects for editing. You can also use MLP to transcode to prores. Once you get your head around the workflows it's all pretty simple. 14bit raw files are a dream to work with. I'm shooting my feature with the MK3, or maybe a MK4 if Magic Lantern happens. In regards to the MK3 raw being soft, yeah it is softer than a C100/300, the OLPF got rid of the moire but made it softer than the MK2. Thing is as I and others discovered: you can post sharpen quite a bit without it looking unnaturally oversharpened. This was denoised and post sharpened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted July 9, 2016 Super Members Share Posted July 9, 2016 I think this thread has reminded me why I should ditch the a6300 and go back to a 5D. tweak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweak Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 For a guy with little to spend like me what would you recommend @Mattias Burling, is the 5D2 good enough? or do I really need to save for a 5D3? I'm shooting 7D MLRaw right now. This is mainly just for personal stuff and the odd job if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted July 9, 2016 Super Members Share Posted July 9, 2016 22 minutes ago, tweak said: For a guy with little to spend like me what would you recommend @Mattias Burling, is the 5D2 good enough? or do I really need to save for a 5D3? I'm shooting 7D MLRaw right now. This is mainly just for personal stuff and the odd job if needed. I would save a little more. Its worth it imo to get rid of the moire. The mkiii has taken quite a plunge on the used market lately and probably will some more if the mkiv is announced this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweak Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Ok cheers man, I will wait and save and use the 7D a little more first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I regret selling my 5D3 every day i'm shooting, ML raw is beautiful.... Only thing holding me back buying another is I want to see what the 5d4 brings (and whether ML might hack it) Mattias Burling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweak Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I think waiting for a 5D4 ML hack is rather optimistic. If I had the cash I would just buy a used 5D3 and if the 5D4 ever gets MLRaw you could upgrade when it happens... there's a decent chance that could well be never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squig Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 36 minutes ago, tweak said: I think waiting for a 5D4 ML hack is rather optimistic. If I had the cash I would just buy a used 5D3 and if the 5D4 ever gets MLRaw you could upgrade when it happens... there's a decent chance that could well be never. New and 2nd hand MK3s will be cheaper when the MK4 comes out. Even with ML the MK4 could have issues like slow rolling shutter, moire in 1080p, and the 4k raw file sizes will be huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweak Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 2 hours ago, squig said: New and 2nd hand MK3s will be cheaper when the MK4 comes out. Even with ML the MK4 could have issues like slow rolling shutter, moire in 1080p, and the 4k raw file sizes will be huge. I realise that (and agree), but the guy above was saying he was waiting "to see what mk4 brings and whether ML might hack it" I was merely replying to that. Waiting to buy based on the assumption 5D4 will get ML just seems like a waste of time imo (and could even be likely to never happen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 7 hours ago, tweak said: I think waiting for a 5D4 ML hack is rather optimistic. If I had the cash I would just buy a used 5D3 and if the 5D4 ever gets MLRaw you could upgrade when it happens... there's a decent chance that could well be never. It'sIt's not like I am sat waiting camera less though.... I have cameras to shoot on... just miss my 5d3 tweak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweak Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 20 minutes ago, Jimmy said: It'sIt's not like I am sat waiting camera less though.... I have cameras to shoot on... just miss my 5d3 Well do something about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shield3 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Here's some screen caps from the C100 (shot in C-log) with either the 300 2.8 IS and/or the 100-400 II. Just for reference's sake. For reference, here's 2 framegrabs from 2013 from the 5d3 raw: (first is the 300 2.8 I think and the latter was the 135/2 wide open with a vari-ND. At the end of the day the image quality with properly exposed c100 C-log and the 5d3 are very, very close. c100 has more detail and resolution and the 5d3 raw shallower DOF. However the c100 just makes sense to me as it's more reliable and easier to work with. Much faster to setup and I can record for hours on end. With the 5d3 I was having to sync audio in post, unpack the mlv raw files, worry about screw on ND filters, would not continually AF in video nor could I punch in while recording. You can't go wrong IMO with either option. I'm in my mid 40's and I prefer having the EVF as it's tough for me to read the back of the screen (everyone's vision starts to suck after age 40)..:) But hey, I'm not a filmmaker. I have shot weddings and short paid documentary, but my primary focus is video of my family - I don't want the typical shaky camcorder "everything in focus / handycam look" typical of most home movies. In years from now when I'm dead my kids will appreicate the hard work when they show this stuff to their kids. At least I hope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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