FS5/FS7 internal raw?

[Jimmy]

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-sony-working-on-internal-compressed-raw-set-of-codecs-for-the-fs-cameras/

Fingers crossed on this little rumour, would be a bit of a game changer, imo. An FS5 with internal raw would check a hell of alot of boxes, in a small, light package, for a great price.

Any tech heads here that can work out what kind of compression levels (if any) would be needed for raw 4K on the fastest FS5 media available?

[Don Kotlos]

Currently I doubt Sony can make SD cards record 4K RAW with a new firmware. 

A 4K DNG frame without debayering is ~13MB.

24frames/sec x 13MB = 288MB/sec 

Currently the fastest minimum write speed of SD cards is U3 (30MB/sec).

So you would need around ~10:1 compression which would need a fairly specialized chip that I doubt FS5 has. 

[BrorSvensson]

Currently I doubt Sony can make SD cards record 4K RAW with a new firmware. 

A 4K DNG frame without debayering is ~13MB.

24frames/sec x 13MB = 288MB/sec 

Currently the fastest minimum write speed of SD cards is U3 (30MB/sec).

So you would need around ~10:1 compression which would need a fairly specialized chip that I doubt FS5 has. 

who said it would be 4k? 1080p raw is something that is for sure doable, just look at the bmpcc

[Don Kotlos]

who said it would be 4k? 1080p raw is something that is for sure doable, just look at the bmpcc

Yes 1080p is possible but I was just replying to Jimmy's question for 4k raw...

[Jimmy]

I've never wrapped my head around the Mbps MB/s thing...

So this is only actually 30MB/s?

http://www.fotosense.co.uk/sandisk-64gb-extreme-pro-sdxc-uhs-ii-memory-card.html?gclid=CjwKEAiA1JuyBRCogJLz4J71kj0SJADsd6QRdBLA3c410EbUY_00TLooeFSHawrObJVhYL67Et0OlhoC9PHw_wcB#fo_c=77&fo_k=743f21e7c5bb6d9b3e90de18f4fe9df9&fo_s=gplauk

[Don Kotlos]

I've never wrapped my head around the Mbps MB/s thing...

So this is only actually 30MB/s?

http://www.fotosense.co.uk/sandisk-64gb-extreme-pro-sdxc-uhs-ii-memory-card.html?gclid=CjwKEAiA1JuyBRCogJLz4J71kj0SJADsd6QRdBLA3c410EbUY_00TLooeFSHawrObJVhYL67Et0OlhoC9PHw_wcB#fo_c=77&fo_k=743f21e7c5bb6d9b3e90de18f4fe9df9&fo_s=gplauk

Mb --> Mega bits (1/8MBytes)

MB --> Mega bytes (8Mbits)

There is a difference between max possible write speed (~250MB/s) and sustained minimum speed (U3 --> 30MB/sec). 

So if you want consistency you go with the U3 spec. 

Of course there are cards that can have much better sustained rate than U3, and this is actually what Blackmagic did with their pocket. So Sony could "pull a Blackmagic" and get away with less compression but then you would have few cards that work without dropping frames. The pocked was mostly an enthusias's type of camera so Blackmagic could get away with it. The FS5 is a proffessional one so I doubt Sony would do the same. I wish they did...

 

[Kristoferman]

Currently I doubt Sony can make SD cards record 4K RAW with a new firmware. 

A 4K DNG frame without debayering is ~13MB.

24frames/sec x 13MB = 288MB/sec 

Currently the fastest minimum write speed of SD cards is U3 (30MB/sec).

So you would need around ~10:1 compression which would need a fairly specialized chip that I doubt FS5 has. 

if anything, I would assume professionals could figure out which sd cards were compatible with their $6000 piece of video equipment

[Don Kotlos]

if anything, I would assume professionals could figure out which sd cards were compatible with their $6000 piece of video equipment

In case you were replying to my other comment, then specs guaranty what a card can do. When you are going out of spec then you have to run tests on your own to make sure each card is up to the task and I doubt many professionals have the time. Even in the case cards run at higher write speeds than what they are spec'ed for, you can still have dropped frames depending on the state of the card, how full it is, how old it is, what batch it is etc. That is why there are SD specs so you know what a card can consistently do and what it cannot do ... Anyways, I am sure professionals can use whatever they can to do the job and that might include shooting RAW with BMPCC or even 5Diii, but if I was one and wanted to shoot 4K RAW for paying jobs, I would invest in an Ursa mini instead.  

[mercer]

In case you were replying to my other comment, then specs guaranty what a card can do. When you are going out of spec then you have to run tests on your own to make sure each card is up to the task and I doubt many professionals have the time. Even in the case cards run at higher write speeds than what they are spec'ed for, you can still have dropped frames depending on the state of the card, how full it is, how old it is, what batch it is etc. That is why there are SD specs so you know what a card can consistently do and what it cannot do ... Anyways, I am sure professionals can use whatever they can to do the job and that might include shooting RAW with BMPCC or even 5Diii, but if I was one and wanted to shoot 4K RAW for paying jobs, I would invest in an Ursa mini instead.  

When I shoot raw with my eos-m the recording stops sometimes due to dropped/skipped frames. Do you think that is because I am not using a fast enough card or just a quirk of ml raw on the eos-m?

[Don Kotlos]

When I shoot raw with my eos-m the recording stops sometimes due to dropped/skipped frames. Do you think that is because I am not using a fast enough card or just a quirk of ml raw on the eos-m?

I wish I could help you mercer but I am not an experienced RAW video shooter. Just had some fun (and plenty of dropped frames...) with a BMPCC for few months and that's it... 

Magic lantern forums (and the fastest cards ) are your best bet. 

[Kristoferman]

In case you were replying to my other comment, then specs guaranty what a card can do. When you are going out of spec then you have to run tests on your own to make sure each card is up to the task and I doubt many professionals have the time. Even in the case cards run at higher write speeds than what they are spec'ed for, you can still have dropped frames depending on the state of the card, how full it is, how old it is, what batch it is etc. That is why there are SD specs so you know what a card can consistently do and what it cannot do ... Anyways, I am sure professionals can use whatever they can to do the job and that might include shooting RAW with BMPCC or even 5Diii, but if I was one and wanted to shoot 4K RAW for paying jobs, I would invest in an Ursa mini instead.  

I did mean to quote your other post haha.

But yes i definitely do see what you are saying. 

[Jimmy]

I guess we better wait to see the if the rumour is true before worrying to much anyway!

[Nikkor]

I think there are SD contollers and cards that do way more than 30MB/s continously.

[Don Kotlos]

I guess we better wait to see the if the rumour is true before worrying to much anyway!

Well don't mistake my pessimism for a lack of enthusiasm for 4K raw  . 

Even if they allow 1080p RAW, it would be great for such a small camera (relative to the Ursa). 

I think there are SD contollers and cards that do way more than 30MB/s continously.

From here:

"Rated Speed (e.g. 15MB/s, 30MB/s, etc.) is maximum speed of the card and also what you would expect to approximately see in typical usage of writing or reading files on the card. This measurement is pertinent to still photography, especially for taking pictures with high resolution and/or saving in RAW format where the files created are very large. The faster the card, the faster it can save the file and be ready to take another picture. You can really notice speed differences with high-megapixel DSLR cameras when using multi-shot burst mode.

Still digital images shot on high-megapixel cameras should utilize fast data throughput (a large data pipe), higher speed cards for improved performance. Higher speed cards can also improve how fast you can transfer the files to and from the card and your computer.

Speed Class is a minimum speed based on a worst case scenario test. The Speed Class is important for video mode or camcorders, where the device is actually saving a steady stream of data. The resolution and format of the video determines the amount of steady stream data. This translates to a minimum speed you need to guarantee that the video captured on the cards is recorded at an even, sustained rate with no dropped frames (which would result in lost data and choppy playback).

Compared to high-megapixel photography, video doesn't need as big a data pipe because the video format is a smaller "fixed stream" that uses only a portion of the data pipe. But you do need a minimum guaranteed speed for the SDHC card that satisfies the requirement of the data stream. Your camera's specifications should state the minimum SDHC Class Rating required."