Triumph61 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Hi Guys.So I bought an A7RII for consideration to replace my NX1. I am a still shooter by training, but moving more and more to video. Thought the A7RII, which is obviously a very capable Still shooter, may handle my video well enough...but I am not so sure after testing. Here are my results shot side by side with the NX1. Sony all shot in SLog2 some FF and some super 35. The Sony is far behind the NX1 in resolution, huge in FF and still significant in S35. Also in SLog2 it has a fairly distinct noise pattern. Images attached from full res 4K grabs. 1/ is Sony FF, 2,3/ are S35 and 4/ is FF I was expecting some differences, but not as much as I did is S35 mode where the Sony is still showing a significantly less ability to resolve at the NX1 levels. Can post FF 4K grabs of each if anyone is interested. Lenses were 16-50 F2 and Canon 24-70 F4 L series. In FF, I don't think the Sony is much better than my 5DIII was with Magic Lantern, certainly not any real world advantage to shoot at 4K? benymypony, maxotics and Liam 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 same lenses on both cameras? were you exposing for +1stop over with the a7r2? s-log is noisy when not exposed at least 1 stop more than the ev meter suggests. also, with careful sharpening in post (when both cameras are set up with their optimum internal sharpening applied), the a7r2 is very allowing of harsh sharpening in post.I couldn;t really understand which images were from s35mm or ff, but ff tests are moot - the a7r2 aint a good cam for full frame 4k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph61 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Lenses are listed in the post. Samsung 16-50 F2 and Canon L 24-70 on the Sony, Zero sharpening in post and minimum in camera on both. First pair is NX1 vs FF Sony, Second and Third image are NX1 versus Sony S35 and the forth image is NX1 versus Sony FF. S35 is better but even in S35 grabs from the Sony, in resolving detail, the NX1 eats it. Re Log exposure, no did not expose 1 stop over, so will retest for noise. Sharpening is one thing but detail resolved is still significantly less. For SUCH a high tech camera in S35 mode, I think Sony need to spend some time in Korea. :-) and learn how to get all the data of the chip and into the file. If I didn't own the NX1 maybe I would be very happy with the Sony, but the NX1 has spoilt it's owners for 4K resolution. IMHO kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricardo_sousa11 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 The Nx1 is an incredible piece of tech, an incredible camera (I keep telling this to everyone), its the most underated piece of gear in ages. I did think the a7rII would come close to it though, surprised to see its so far behind, this just confirms my opinion, the NX1 is the best 4k (and video) camera around up until the tens of thousands in price, and even then, it compares quite close. Great test btw ! TheRenaissanceMan, vaga, Triumph61 and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph61 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 FF tests are not Moot for me because it is the main feature that would attract me to the Sony for Video. I was aware it was going to be not as good. but it still surprised me by how bad it was. So along comes the A7SII...woot woot... except as a still photographer they leave out Phase detect AF? It's called Sonyfication, the things that make your scratch your head about Sony :-) So good and then the deal breaker.Yes Ricardo, I wanted it to be close, but if you have owned the Samsung and you see the Jaw dropping shots in Andrew Reid's video that look like "moving stills" it's hard to go backwards. kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Yeah, I'd want to see some tests with added sharpening, but the nx1 is so good. Also log, low light, and IBIS are more interesting to me than full frame when comparing the two. Thanks for the findings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Lenses are listed in the post. Samsung 16-50 F2 and Canon L 24-70 on the Sony, Zero sharpening in post and minimum in camera on both. First pair is NX1 vs FF Sony, Second and Third image are NX1 versus Sony S35 and the forth image is NX1 versus Sony FF. S35 is better but even in S35 grabs from the Sony, in resolving detail, the NX1 eats it. Re Log exposure, no did not expose 1 stop over, so will retest for noise. Sharpening is one thing but detail resolved is still significantly less. For SUCH a high tech camera in S35 mode, I think Sony need to spend some time in Korea. :-) and learn how to get all the data of the chip and into the file. If I didn't own the NX1 maybe I would be very happy with the Sony, but the NX1 has spoilt it's owners for 4K resolution. IMHOin the lens dept the samsung has the edge. the canon L lens designed for 24x36mm and without being corrected for the cover glass of a digital sensor used on aps-c will struggle to match the optical resolution of the modern samsung lens which has a greater resolving power into aps-c (2x the Lp/mm). I think some of the contributing factor in resolved detail is actually in the glass dept. Marco Tecno, vaga and Don Kotlos 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.f.r. Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 NX1 has less dynamic range + poor iso performance. These cameras are very different, NX1 definitely has more detail, GH4 probably even more, the thing is this doesn't translate to a "nice" image..... GH4 razor sharp, which makes it look like artificial "sharpened" video that's great for News broadcast, I would say the NX1 is in the same vein as the GH4. A7 cameras by Sony are more in vein with Canon 5D's, more sharper than 5D but not as "cynical" sharp as NX1 and GH4. Personally I still like the 5D Mark III, great colors and a well accepted image everyone likes. Truth be told I worked on a project shot on RED and the client liked the shots of a 5D Mark III better...... Sharpness/Detail is not always your friend........ Shield3 and vaga 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricardo_sousa11 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 NX1 has less dynamic range + poor iso performance. These cameras are very different, NX1 definitely has more detail, GH4 probably even more, the thing is this doesn't translate to a "nice" image..... GH4 razor sharp, which makes it look like artificial "sharpened" video that's great for News broadcast, I would say the NX1 is in the same vein as the GH4. A7 cameras by Sony are more in vein with Canon 5D's, more sharper than 5D but not as "cynical" sharp as NX1 and GH4. Personally I still like the 5D Mark III, great colors and a well accepted image everyone likes. Truth be told I worked on a project shot on RED and the client liked the shots of a 5D Mark III better...... Sharpness/Detail is not always your friend........GH4 has much lower detail than the NX1.I agree with you though, the Canon colors are great, but I find the NX1 very very versatile, its easy to grade and look great, however, you need decent lenses...most of the footage I see are shot with the kit lens, this is probably due to the bad marketing, and with the kit lens, it makes the camera look close to what an Iphone @ 4k looks like. Pair it with decent lenses, and you have an amazing camera, that can look filmic or not, depending on what your needs are. Marco Tecno, kidzrevil and vaga 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph61 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 in the lens dept the samsung has the edge. the canon L lens designed for 24x36mm and without being corrected for the cover glass of a digital sensor used on aps-c will struggle to match the optical resolution of the modern samsung lens which has a greater resolving power into aps-c (2x the Lp/mm). I think some of the contributing factor in resolved detail is actually in the glass dept. Sorry Disagree, If it was the lens, I would see it in stills, even cropped stills, and I do not. The Canon 24-70 F4 L series is just as sharp even at APSC crops as the Samsung lensThis is no small difference you are seeing in these images iamoui 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Kotlos Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Sorry Disagree, If it was the lens, I would see it in stills, even cropped stills, and I do not. The Canon 24-70 F4 L series is just as sharp even at APSC crops as the Samsung lensLenses are optimized for the cameras. For example the thickness of the IR filter. If you want to argue about the details in 4K video, one of the things that you will have to do is use a lens that is native for the A7rii like the 55 1.8. The contrast of the lens, affects the image too. This is no small difference you are seeing in these imagesI will not try to argue that the A7rii has more resolution in 4K relative to the NX1. Probably it is not the case. But the differences that you see in these examples might be because of many factors other than the sensor. For example, in the "romanella" picture you have clearly focused at different depths as the letters in the orange box in the back are almost readable in the A7rii and not in the NX1. Another problem is the amount of sharpening that you see in the NX1 footage. Like in the "Whoop ass" picture there are over-sharpening halos around the figure. P.S. I am not going to mention the compression artifacts and terrible macro-blocking of NX1. Oops I just did. Don't get me wrong, I believe that NX1 is a great camera, but two are aimed at different groups. If resolution is your cup of tea then NX1 is clearly better for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph61 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 NX1 has less dynamic range + poor iso performance. These cameras are very different, NX1 definitely has more detail, GH4 probably even more, the thing is this doesn't translate to a "nice" image..... GH4 razor sharp, which makes it look like artificial "sharpened" video that's great for News broadcast, I would say the NX1 is in the same vein as the GH4. A7 cameras by Sony are more in vein with Canon 5D's, more sharper than 5D but not as "cynical" sharp as NX1 and GH4. Personally I still like the 5D Mark III, great colors and a well accepted image everyone likes. Truth be told I worked on a project shot on RED and the client liked the shots of a 5D Mark III better...... Sharpness/Detail is not always your friend........The NX1's iso performance is actually not that bad, only at extremes and I think this is overstated. If you need it, sure high iso is important. Many have noted that the performance between 100 and 1600 is virtually the same, which is where many will live and shoot. Latter firmware may have actually improved it according to some.When I watch this below, I am seeing lots of resolution, not so much over sharpening. That said I do believe the NX1 could do with lower sharpening levels.Lenses are optimized for the cameras. For example the thickness of the IR filter. If you want to argue about the details in 4K video, one of the things that you will have to do is use a lens that is native for the A7rii like the 55 1.8. The contrast of the lens, affects the image too. Actually I know a lot about lenses, its been my life for 35 years, But to satisfy some before I sell the A7RII I will shoot a comparison with the same lens, It will have to be a Nikon because that's all I have that fits both. Funny thing is the IR filter is there for Video and its still there for Stills and the 24-70 is razor sharp in stills? Must be some voodoo magic happening? :-)Saw the macro blocking n the NX1 and yes the Sony out performs in this area, but replaces it with outhr sensor based artefacts like noise, so which is better? I suppose it's up to the individual.No Chance of Macro Blocking here :-) The Samsung just recorded the detail while the Sony thought it was not important? Or maybe you will say I misfocused? Marco Tecno, vaga and iamoui 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Kotlos Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Actually I know a lot about lenses, its been my life for 35 years, But to satisfy some before I sell the A7RII I will shoot a comparison with the same lens,As I mentioned before and as you will probably know from the 35 years of experience, that will not determine the capability of the sensor. It will test how the specific lens performs with each camera. Funny thing is the IR filter is there for Video and its still there for Stills and the 24-70 is razor sharp in stills? Must be some voodoo magic happening? :-)No just out of focus video :). Saw the macro blocking n the NX1 and yes the Sony out performs in this area, but replaces it with outhr sensor based artefacts like noise, so which is better? I suppose it's up to the individual.Exactly my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph61 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 No just out of focus video :). So find me the sharp point? They are different lenses so of course the depth of field will differ. But I focused on the bottles. Better still I am happy for you to prove me wrong , put up your own findings? The Samsung shows detail even with Legacy glass, Don. I own both, do you?I am very aware of the Samsungs short comings, but resolution is not one of them and it is with the Sony. Which is why I posted my findings. people can make up there own minds or they can get offended that I have criticised their camera choice. vaga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Kotlos Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 So find me the sharp point? They are different lenses so of course the depth of field will differ. But I focused on the bottles. Better still I am happy for you to prove me wrong , put up your own findings? The Samsung shows detail even with Legacy glass, Don. I own both, do you?I am very aware of the Samsungs short comings, but resolution is not one of them and it is with the Sony. Which is why I posted my findings. people can make up there own minds or they can get offended that I have criticised their camera choice. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate you taking the time to do these tests and post here your findings. But at the same time I cannot stop being critical. At the end what matters is to have a camera that you feel comfortable with and gives you the look you are after. Don't waste your time doing more tests, enjoy the NX1 instead. vaga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagnje Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Wold you be so nice and do a couple of nx1 4k/1080p comparison shots please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph61 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 Wold you be so nice and do a couple of nx1 4k/1080p comparison shots please.Comparisons with the Sony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I've been waiting for a thread like this to appear Hopefully we see more tests comparing the 4K output of these two cameras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitfabryk Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I agree with Dean, its very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrorSvensson Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Well the nx1 takes the 28mp 6.5 signal and downscales it to 4k which is absolutely incredible, the the super 35mm crop on the a7rii is just above 4k so that imo is the reason for the detail aspect. Marco Tecno 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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