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FS5 vs A7S II vs URSA mini 4.6k


Nicolas MAILLET
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Also, unless you have the money or making that kind of money I would say the Sony FS7 (around 10K with everything) is definitely not a personal camera and structured more towards a working professional with clients. The most I would go is the Sony Fs700 around $5k as I know you could easily make money back doing corporate jobs and commercials, it's an excellent slow-motion camera as well that many clients use for music videos.

 

 

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From reading your post, it certainly sounds like you're wanting the Sony FS5. Is lightweight, run and gun camera that you want which will still give you high quality for everything short of hiring F55 / RED Epic on the big jobs.

So I'll just address your cons list: 

What i dislike

- 8 bits 420... crap. Crap, and re crap.

- Iso performance to judge when it comes out

- Paid firmware to upgrade (and certainly not cheap from Sony...)

- EVF that is certainly cheap... too small.

- The price for what you get

- Yes it is 8bit 420 but only for 4K, for your everyday 1080 shooting it is 10bit 422 :-D

- ISO performance I expect to be excellent, on a similar level to the FS7 and at least better than your 5D. 

- Don't worry about the paid upgrade that is coming, look at if the camera makes sense as it is *NOW*. And I reckon for you it does.

- Get a SmallHD 502 is my suggestion, or a BMD Video Assist if your budget it lacking.

- You get a *LOT* for that price! Name anything on the market which is better. (nope, the URSA Mini 4.6K isn't better value. It merely is better in *some* areas, but also at the same time is *worse* in other areas)

 

Ebrahim i can see the FS5 for me too... but 4K 8 bits 420 is damn cheap for a camera that costs 7K euros... (with batteries)


Perhaps pyscologically it is better you view the 4K of the FS5 as a "bonus" extra that the camera has. And view the FS5 instead as what it is: a really really great 1080 run and gun S35 camera, with a taste of 4K as a bonus cheery on the top (for when an unreasonable client *DEMANDS* 4K, even when it makes no sense and they've got no budget to hire a proper 4K camera. Well, at least you can satisfy them :) ). Because this FS5 is going up head to head against another 1080 camera: C100 mk2, and on absolutely every point the FS5 beats it.

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That's what i call an answer !!!!!

You're right. This FS5 will probably be my first choice. It has almost everything i need. But what i fear is that being good everywhere can't be possible... there is certainly a problem somewhere...

Tests will be important.

My main concern with the FS5 is the XAVC-L codec.

It's pretty good, but on the FS7 it has very severe macro blocking and banding in some highlights. (skin under mixed lighting, hazy detail like smoke, general bright highlights like shiny surfaces + windows, anything with a bulb in). 

These issue are not there with XAVC-I - super clean!

So my reservations are the codec performance for critical work and weird Sony colour. 

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10 bits 422 for the FS5 only in HD... i think this won't be the case for UHD... I believe it is 8 bits 422 SDI or HDMI Out...

I couldn't find the exact info on Sony's white sheet, but here is a quote from Convergent Design:

 

"Upon initial release in November, the FS5 will output QFHD (UHD) 3840x2160 video in 4:2:2 10-bit up to 30p via HDMI. The Odyssey7Q+ will record this in Apple ProRes in 422(HQ), 422 or 422(LT). The FS5 will also offer output of S-Log2 and S-Log3, which are fully supported in the Odyssey7Q+ LUT System."

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This is pretty much interesting. FS5 looks to have a good potential when you have enough money... Odyssey 7Q+ is not what i call cheap, and requires external power... This is not a fantastic solution but if it works that means you have 4K 10 bits prores with 14 stops of dynamic... pretty good sounding like that. Now we need on the field tests...

 

And what about this little baby : http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1137279-REG/video_devices_pix_e5_5_4k_recording.html

 

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The FS7 is a very popular and proven rock solid camera to work with. You can kinda view the FS5 as a FHD version (with 4K merely tacked on as an "extra bonus") of the FS7, but in an EVEN SMALLER (& cheaper) package. Otherwise, they're kinda similar aside from a few tweaks here and there (such as the FS5 has the new internal ND filter, which is quite appealing. And the FS5 does slow motion in the manner the FS700 does it, rather than the not as slow but continuous slow motion which the FS7 has. Which is a good thing for some people, or a negative from another perspective, depending on your needs).

So the FS7 is already a "known quantity", thus if you like what you see there and would like a "FHD mini-FS7" then the FS5 is very very likely exactly what you're seeking.

However, if you're also considering the URSA Mini 4.6K then I reckon you certainly do also have the budget to consider going for the actual FS7 itself rather than the FS5. (as the full kit price of a FS7 vs URSA Mini 4.6K are practically the same)

It is certainly the most attractive 4K recorder on the market right now for its price. 

But if you don't need to rush to buy one, then I'd certainly wait and see what Sony does with FS raw from the FS5. As Convergent Design has been very good in supporting this so far with the FS700/FS7 (unlike their competitors, which have been slower or not doing it at all), but on the downside their recorders are much more pricey.

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You're right, FS7 is 7800 euros here, all brand new. Without cards and batteries... I've found BP-U60 batteries @ 90 euros each, which is not damn so much expensive.

 

This is in fact a good option. 8500 euros all inclusive. That's pretty what the price is for an Ursa Mini... I never checked this out... I'm Ok to spend that amount of money for a great 4K and great dynamic.

 

Why not.

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You're right, FS7 is 7800 euros here, all brand new. Without cards and batteries... I've found BP-U60 batteries @ 90 euros each, which is not damn so much expensive.

 

This is in fact a good option. 8500 euros all inclusive. That's pretty what the price is for an Ursa Mini... I never checked this out... I'm Ok to spend that amount of money for a great 4K and great dynamic.

 

Why not.

I use the FS7 a lot, and the image is very very close to the F55. 

I expect the URSA Mini 4.6k to have a much better image than the FS7, although the Sony does have advantages the URSA doesn't, like non-cropped slow mo. 

I'm in the market for a new camera this winter so I know what you're going through. Mind boggling. 

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I add that I do not like:

A7SII: no s35 sensor!!! ( I can not put all the lenses I have).

F5: ( you have more or less already said everything, for that price 4k 10-bit 422 it was obligatory!!!)

Ursa: But why do not you make m4/3 or E mount ( Canon and PL are not good for adapters)

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I add that I do not like:

A7SII: no s35 sensor!!! ( I can not put all the lenses I have).

F5: ( you have more or less already said everything, for that price 4k 10-bit 422 it was obligatory!!!)

Ursa: But why do not you make m4/3 or E mount ( Canon and PL are not good for adapters)

A7SII: it has a crop mode, but in S35 you give up 4K.

F5: I think you mean FS5.... not F5! And it *DOES* have 10bit 422, but in FHD. Thus for its price, it completely trounces it competitors. You can wish it does 4K with 10bit 422 as well, but... there is absolutely no direct competitor in its price bracket which does this! (closest is FS7 itself, and BMD is a different kettle of fish). So no, I feel you're wrong to say "for that price it is obligatory". Wishful thinking however.. yes, I wish for it too! But that is why they have the FS7 at a little higher price.

URSA: maybe maybe maybe an URSA-M4K MFT will come along a little later like they did with BMCC EF first and then later BMCC MFT. As I could see this happening with the 4K sensor. But possibly, the new 4.6K sensor won't fit within the m4/3 mount??? Unlikely, but it is just a little bit bigger than JVC's LS300 sensor in its m4/3 mount.

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Iam into the same problem deciding which camera fits best :/ Working with two BMPCC now, which are really great colorwise. Thats also the biggest downside for me with Sony cameras as it always was with Panasonic. The out of camera footage doesnt look pleasing. 

I think ill go with a sony a7r II or a7s II for documentary style and the "lightweight setup" (i cant really decide, i think sony sells and old sensor with the s II and will maybe give us next year a new, backilluminated version which will be a really huge improvement)

and the Ursa Mini for the "big stuff". The only downsides i can see with this camera are the mount, the lack of ND Filters AND the availability! ;-)

BUT

- Color is awesome

- dynamic range is awesome

- 4,6k 50p!

- global shutter option! (halves the framerate but still awesome!)

- 3:1 lossless compressed Cinema DNG RAW -> since you need less storage the effective price of the CFAST cards isnt that bad.

- if youre planning live productions the URSAs ability to remote control colors with an ATEM Switcher is also a nice-to-have feature

 

I think 4,6k is just kick-ass since you got those 0,6k extra for stabilisation and tracking stuff without losing resolution of the 4k image.

Also the 3:1 Lossless compressed Cinema DNG RAW saves you a lot of space and you may be able to playback 4,6k 50p from one consumer SSD (4k 50p RAW from FS700 recorded with Odyssey is more around 650 megabytes/second =0)

I also thought about the big Ursa, but i dont think my Edelkrone Slider would appreciate that ;-D

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