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FS5 vs A7S II vs URSA mini 4.6k


Nicolas MAILLET
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Hi guys,

 

it's time for me to change my personal camera, my 5D3 that works really great but that is not reliable for some works, that is not easy to work with because of MLV raw files and no other codec, that files take too much space...

 

Great cameras are about to come out soon, FS5 and BM Ursa Mini 4.6k... The A7S mark II is already out.

 

This is gone to be MY camera, that i pay with MY money for MY personal work... but, as with the 5D3 on some projects, i use it for paid works... The new camera has to be good enough to be used for paid works. I make some national commercials for trademarks. And sometimes renting a F55 or Red Epic is a bit too much for the job... but as you know, clients want big cameras, want 4K... I don't know why... the last time this was for a web campaign, only 1080 broadcasted, the client said to me i was obliged to shoot with 4K... Don't know if we live in the same world... But this is more and more a fact, clients want 4K now...

 

I've searched wich cameras could fit my needs and that i could pay myself with my little own budget of 8000 euros more or less.

 

A7S II :

What i like

- Cheap price so far.

- Best isos performance, great to push the isos and screw down the lens in dark conditions to keep focus more easily.

- compressed codec to gain space on my servers compared to RAW 5D3...

- 422 hdmi out

What i dislike

- No ND

- Power solution that is not efficient to be productive

- 8 bits when output to a recorder... that is cheap Sony guys !!!!

 

FS5 :

What i like

- ND... Sooo far

- 10 bits @ 1080

- Power solution with BPU 90

- SD card X2 slots

- High frame rate

- Firmware to upgrade 4K 10 bits ?

- Hdmi AND SDI out

What i dislike

- 8 bits 420... crap. Crap, and re crap.

- Iso performance to judge when it comes out

- Paid firmware to upgrade (and certainly not cheap from Sony...)

- EVF that is certainly cheap... too small.

- The price for what you get

 

Black magic Ursa Mini 4.6K EF :

 

What i like

- Codecs that are rock solid

- Dynamic range pushed so far

- User interface that is so clear and user friendly

- Zebras that are reliable @ Blackmagic

- Price compared to the FS5 for what you get (Raw, Prores, 12 bits DR for the same price...)

- 4/3 format, and 2.40 ratio @ 4K... yummy

What i dislike

- No ND

- Power solution that is expensive and not so efficient compared to the price (IDX 150 to go with 3 hours when it charges in 9 to 10 hours... then you have to take some 4 batteries to shoot all day long...)

- CFast @ 1300 euros for 2X 128 GB... Ouch mommy are you here ? I'm sick !!!

- Iso performance (not run n gun friendly on some projects where light is not controlled...)

 

 

I can't decide which one to get... really. i'm searching for the best all around camera, flexible one, capable of good iso performance and reliable. I'm used to my 5D3 RAW, but i need 4K now, and good enough camera to use on some paid projects... My heart goes to the URSA... but iso perf is not here at all... not usable in some conditions. I can't keep my 5D3 for low light... i have to sell it to buy the new camera...

 

What do you think guys ? it will be my own camera, for personal work (short films with friends, music videos...) but sometimes used on paid projects for some big trademarks when RED Epic or F5/F55 is not justified... My heart goes to the URSA mini but batteries are heavy, it is not run n gun with 800 native isos... i'm lost.

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Oh ? Can you link something ?

What i looked at : http://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/lexar_lc128crbeu3400

 

Note that they accept best offers so you might get even cheaper.

I used this one and didn't pay import taxes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lexar-128GB-3400x-CFast-2-0-Memory-Card-510MB-s-For-Camcorders-and-DSLR-Cameras-/181791904306?hash=item2a53a45232:g:o4cAAOSwMmBVlpPE

This one is the cheaper one and given its a small card in an envelope, at least in Sweden there is a good chance it would slip though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lexar-128GB-3400x-CFast-2-0-Memory-Card-510MB-s-For-Camcorders-and-DSLR-Cameras-/181791904306?hash=item2a53a45232:g:o4cAAOSwMmBVlpPE

But taxes or not its cheaper :)

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

A cfast 2.0 128GB is 320USD. Still pretty damn expensive and you'll need quite a few. Shooting raw, you'll need tons! 

Anyway among these cameras I highly believe the FS5 is going to be the most ''complete'' and ''do it all'' package for you. It's the same concept as a C100II but with 4K. It will really do everything based on what primary testers are seeing. 

The only thing you might now love is the colours gradeability ompared to Canon 14bit 444 Raw Cinema DNG files, but you, not clients. If that point is so important to you, it's obvious, the URSA, but you give up a huge amount of ISO performance and versatility with NDs, lens mount. Plus the FS5 WILL get raw at some point. 

I see the FS5 being the one for you. Personal camera, that can be used for any client work. 

I wouldn't use an A7s for clients work nor use the Ursa 4.6K raw as a personal camera. 

Wait for the fs5 and ursa mini release and few reviews however all we know for now is some initial thoughts 

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Ebrahim i can see the FS5 for me too... but 4K 8 bits 420 is damn cheap for a camera that costs 7K euros... (with batteries)

 

When i say personal camera i mean a camera i can use when shooting shorts @ 48hFP or KinoKabaret or festivals like that without renting one. To shoot my daughter or my holidays i shoot with my iphone and it is almost perfect for that. Personal camera means i buy it.

 

URSA has fantastic codecs built in. I don't know if the FS5 firmware upgrade will be cheap... and it already costs 7K euros... Pretty expensive lil baby !!!!

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Ebrahim i can see the FS5 for me too... but 4K 8 bits 420 is damn cheap for a camera that costs 7K euros... (with batteries)

 

When i say personal camera i mean a camera i can use when shooting shorts @ 48hFP or KinoKabaret or festivals like that without renting one. To shoot my daughter or my holidays i shoot with my iphone and it is almost perfect for that. Personal camera means i buy it.

 

URSA has fantastic codecs built in. I don't know if the FS5 firmware upgrade will be cheap... and it already costs 7K euros... Pretty expensive lil baby !!!!

I've actually been thinking the same thing, sort of. 

I pre-ordered the URSA Mini 4.6k just to get in the queue, with the intention of purchasing if early reviews and a rental test were up to scratch. 

There's quite a shift in my business at the moment towards commercial & corporate work due to the diminishing funds in music, where music video budgets are in great decline. 

The URSA Mini 4.6k is going to have an amazing, cinematic image - but there are many benefits to the FS5 that can't be ignored (ND's, 240fps slow motion, reliability, size). I've got a bunch of DSLR sized gear here (sliders, gimbal tripod) that I couldn't use with the URSA Mini 4.6k. The FS5 would fit all of it. 

Now the Sony image.... I've been shooting on Sony much more than any other brand because of the HFR. Music videos need it. However, I've never loved any of the images. I used a C300 at the weekend on a viral and it speaks volumes how much better the colour rendition on the Canon is compared to Sony. It's softer sure! But overall much more pleasing. Much much more. 

So for me, I'd have to work much harder with FS5 images and make them sing. It would probably be the better camera to buy that adapts my business model. I'd have to swallow my zest for beautiful Blackmagic images and stick with Sony. But that's not what I want to do. It's sort of personal. The BM image is a massive deal. Massive. 

As for the A7S II - I'd use this as an A-cam on a very low budget shoot and as a B-cam on others. 

From all the cameras here - the FS5 is the best option to fit all purposes. But it's not the sexiest. 

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Many of us here are in exactly the same situation. My advice for you:

Buy a C100 Mkii or C300 and just tell your clients that the image is downscaled from a 4k sensor in camera so this will save them on post production time and money. Plus Canon has great colour to begin with, so they they will save on colour grading.

If the clients don't like or accept this... then take them out back and shoot them... not with your camera... but a large caliber hand gun. Finished.

And after others find out about what you've done, for the reasons you have, you will get more work then ever before.

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Many of us here are in exactly the same situation. My advice for you:

Buy a C100 Mkii or C300 and just tell your clients that the image is downscaled from a 4k sensor in camera and this will save them the post production time and money. Plus they will save both money and time on colour grading because Canon has great colour to begin with.

If the clients don't like or accept this... then take them out back and shoot them.

Lol !!!

No i can't shoot them !!! i can assure you !!! lol

C100 mk II does look great to my eyes. that's true. But i think it's time to upgrade to 4K. Not as i like it, as i shoot 90% of time @ 1080... but clients often ask for 4K now... Don't really know why. When i have to shoot in 4K, the budget has to include a camera rent... anf as you already know it's expensive... For some trademarks ok, they have the budget, no problem, but for some other ones that have less... i don't want to say to them NO. First because i miss the project (and the bill...) and second because after i say NO clients don't propose me other projects... i live with making films, this is my job... And i have to make choices well thought to be the best bargain at the end of the project. If i can save money buying a camera i think it's a great choice at this time when cameras prices are low for the quality you can get.

 

Clients want 4K now... the're stupid. Woops... Said that ? Lol.

 

Sony FS5 is a great all around baby. If it has the same picture as FS7 i'm done. Slog3 has a great gamma curve, not easy to expose when you run n gun but my main job is well controlled lit scenes... My job says to me "URSA mini Baby !!!!!!" and my wife says "FS5 baby !!!! Come on !!!!!" ... My wife ? Lol. She even doesn't know how to power on a camera... No, FS5 looks to be the great all around camera, NDs, high isos, Dynamic range, storage cost, power batteries efficiency, SDI and Hdmi output, RAW enabled in the future... But i say this to myself often : if you want to do all, you're gone to make average things. If you do some things, you can make them great. I think it is the same for cameras. And that FS5 looks too good everywhere... URSA Mini has great codecs for sure, but sucks in other ways... Not an all around camera at all...

 

Oh crap. Choice is difficult on paper... And the A7S II looks cool too, for its price !!!

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Personally, I just don't like Sony colours unless I am shooting something intentionally cold... I have had the A7s and Fs700 (raw) and also used the FS7... I just don't feel it, especially after using 5DIII (raw), blackmagic and RED. It is all down to taste though (and how long you wanna spend grading), but I will not be buying Sony again unless something is drastically improved.

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If you plan on shooting with the correct exposure / wb and with minimal crazy grades I'd look no further than the a7r2 and a battery grip for prolonged power.

rolling shutter is there - in in copious supply, but a7r2 and sb ultra in s35mm mode is an astounding imaging device for 4k.  I expect rolling shutter is a little lower than that of the a7s2 in full frame mode.  at 25,600 iso I'm amazed how good the a7r2 is!  go any higher than 25600 on my a7s and it may look usable, but actually looks horrible in most instances.  the mk2 is only a very slight improvement from the tests I've seen so far.   

I only say this to bring your attention to the a7r2, since this is infact a closer match to the fs5 and ursa due to the ability to shoot 4k onto s35mm.  the a7s doesn;t allow this and therefore limits its use with a lot of cinema primes if you ever plan on using them. 

 

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No one camera does it all, but I will say this......

 

The Sony A7R II is an EXCELLENT stills / video camera.

40+ MP FF means you can do professional photography work which in turn will help with extra money. On the video side it does 4K in camera with FF or S35. The main advantage of the A7R II vs A7s I and II would be if you're doing photography, that 42Mp FF sensor can deliver some amazing photos. Also A7R II can use many S35 cinema glass in 4K, something the A7S cannot as 4K is only in FF. I'm editing a project rite now shot on A7R II and honestly very impressed with the image quality.

 

Now if you're not into or don't plan to do photography than I would suggest an Sony A7s + Ninja Assassin Recorder. You can find the Sony A7s now around $1600-$1900 since the A7s II was released which honestly makes no sense to buy unless you NEED 4K in camera. To me attaching a monitor like the Ninja Assassin gives you the best of both worlds.

 

Blackmagic Ursa Mini will definitely be one of the best prosumer cameras released, but it will easily cost close to 8k with all options.

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Wow... all i have to say right now is thank you guy !!!! Hop !!! Economy is just more than 800 euros... :flushed:  :blush:

Guys, don't forget new Transcend CFast cards that are also approved by BM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Transcend-CFast-2-0-CFX650-256-GB-Memory-Card-510mb-s-Read-370mb-s-Write-/252101797777?hash=item3ab2702791:g:RCMAAOSwuTxWAy1G

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