herein2020

First off I want to caveat this with the fact that I am not an IQ purist, I am not constantly in search of that perfect camera to try to replicate Hollywood magic; instead my focus is on nearly everything but IQ. I focus on things like workflow optimization, ease of grading (the C70 wins this category hands down BTW when set to Cinema Raw LT), audio options, shooting features (IBIS, ND filters, etc), battery life, and of course above all DOES IT OVERHEAT (here the C70 wins again). IMO any modern camera above the PS bodies produces fantastic quality; the story you are trying to tell, the lenses used, and the lighting all affect quality far more than the camera body.
With that said, no, I don't think the IQ is distinguishable between the R5, R7, and C70 on YT for 95% of what I shoot. I keep the C70 in CLOG3 to match the other two to make the color grade easier. Now there is the remaining 5%; when a scene is a high DR scene, has strong highlight rolloff, or is perfectly lit and when the C70 is in CLOG2 then and only then does the C70 display enough of a quality difference to possibly be noticeable even on YT. 
I think the same can be said for most camera ecosystems (BM, Sony, Panasonic, etc.). 
I also briefly mentioned lenses earlier; I do think all of the cameras listed above would produce noticeable IQ improvements with "cinema" lenses; but my typical project is nowhere near the budget required to use lenses like those. The vendor's camera campaign videos produce the quality you see using the same bodies you and I purchase; but with $60K - $100K worth of rigging and a full support team. Those videos are nice to see the art of the possible (and they are hosted on YT), but achieving that look is unrealistic for most of us. I still like watching them though because they prove my point that the story, lighting, and rigging affect the quality far more than the camera body.

I have gotten to where I shoot almost exclusively with the R7 for events and hybrid photo/video work. For talking heads, long form content, concerts, etc. where the camera can be locked down and audio is more important then I use the C70. For commercial shoots and things like music videos I typically combine the C70 with the R7 as the b-cam.
For audio when running and gunning I typically use just a shotgun mic, the Canon EF 24-105mm F4.0 lens and get pretty close to the subject to try to reduce background noise. When I am working with an onscreen personality doing impromptu interviews at events then I use a Sennheiser handheld mic and G4 receiver. For talking head work I use a Sennheiser G4 transmitter and receiver combined with a mini-XLR shotgun mic into the C70.
Some of it is depending on budget as well. If the budget is pretty low I will just use the R7 simply because I don't see the point in bringing the C70 to a lower budget shoot unless it will drastically improve my workflow. If the budget is high enough then I will use the C70 even for shots that I would typically shoot with the R7 (i.e. I will rig up the C70 on a gimbal if the budget is high enough, and forgo the R7's IBIS for the C70's improved DR/IQ when shooting handheld). 
At the end of the day I definitely make my camera selections based on the project type. If the project is 90% photography and 10% video then I will probably use the R5. If its 50/50 photography/video then I will use the R7, if I need two cameras then I will pair the R7 with the C70, if its 100% video then the budget and audio requirements will make me choose the C70 or R7, etc. etc. 
The great thing about the R7, R5, and C70 is that none of them need much rigging to work and all of them will produce great quality with or without rigging/lighting. I know BM cameras tend to need more rigging/lighting to get the best results which is why with my setup I can use any camera for anything from run and gun to studio work.

I have gotten to where I shoot almost exclusively with the R7 for events and hybrid photo/video work. For talking heads, long form content, concerts, etc. where the camera can be locked down and audio is more important then I use the C70. For commercial shoots and things like music videos I typically combine the C70 with the R7 as the b-cam.
For audio when running and gunning I typically use just a shotgun mic, the Canon EF 24-105mm F4.0 lens and get pretty close to the subject to try to reduce background noise. When I am working with an onscreen personality doing impromptu interviews at events then I use a Sennheiser handheld mic and G4 receiver. For talking head work I use a Sennheiser G4 transmitter and receiver combined with a mini-XLR shotgun mic into the C70.
Some of it is depending on budget as well. If the budget is pretty low I will just use the R7 simply because I don't see the point in bringing the C70 to a lower budget shoot unless it will drastically improve my workflow. If the budget is high enough then I will use the C70 even for shots that I would typically shoot with the R7 (i.e. I will rig up the C70 on a gimbal if the budget is high enough, and forgo the R7's IBIS for the C70's improved DR/IQ when shooting handheld). 
At the end of the day I definitely make my camera selections based on the project type. If the project is 90% photography and 10% video then I will probably use the R5. If its 50/50 photography/video then I will use the R7, if I need two cameras then I will pair the R7 with the C70, if its 100% video then the budget and audio requirements will make me choose the C70 or R7, etc. etc. 
The great thing about the R7, R5, and C70 is that none of them need much rigging to work and all of them will produce great quality with or without rigging/lighting. I know BM cameras tend to need more rigging/lighting to get the best results which is why with my setup I can use any camera for anything from run and gun to studio work.

Two card slots just saved my project today. I shot for 3hrs in the scorching FL heat at a project site that was a 1.5hr roundtrip drive to create footage with a new client after weeks of coordination and schedule planning; and captured photography images that would be very difficult if not impossible to recreate since we were working with animals; and when I got home the SanDisk Extreme CFExpress card in the R5 stated it had no useable file system and not a single image had been recorded to it.
I had formatted the card before the shoot, the R5 gave absolutely no indication that one of the cards wasn't working, and yet nothing was written to the CFExpress card (or it got corrupted somehow after the shoot on the way home); that would have been a total loss of 1600 images, a refund of the client's money, and definitely a lost future client if I had only had a single card slot. I am already working with the client to shoot a few different promo videos and more photoshoots with them in the future so this would have been a pretty major loss. In my close to 20yrs of shooting I've never had this happen.
At the moment I don't know what to think; is there a bug in the R5 where it corrupted the file system for the CFE card, or did the CFE card have a problem and the R5 saved the day by continuing to operate flawlessly with the SD card.  Regardless of which scenario happened, I now know the R5 won't tell you when one card is not working, it will also keep working with the second card, and I also know I was right to never buy an A camera (other than drones) with a single card slot.

It is tough, very tough, even now most of my well paying clients are repeat clients; I do a ton of one hit wonders like headshots, photo studio work, etc. but repeat business and word of mouth is the real secret. Of course that is the photography side of things. For video many of my customers started with photography and eventually needed video then kept coming back to me for both.  
My particular video niche is big events (boat races, car shows, food festivals, fashion shows, etc). That niche in turn spawns tons of side projects (photo shoots, promo videos, talking heads, training videos, etc. etc). So if I were starting over right now today I would just Google events in my area and start going to them and filming them for free.
I have a branded shirt with my business name on it, I also have business cards, and I would wear my shirt and pass my cards out literally everywhere. I would shoot entire highlight reels of the events, really focus on handing out my business cards to the vendors and try to figure out who the organizers were. If I could work my way up to the organizers and main sponsors I would offer to tag them on IG and FB when the video and photos were out and give them my business cards which would ensure they saw my work.
I would give it less than 3 months of that before I started having sponsors, organizers, and event attendees reaching out to me for photos and video. Within about 6 months in a reasonably large city I would have my whole network built back up.  I keep stressing photography because in my niche it is so important. So many people contact me for photography and they never even considered video until I recommend it. One thing leads to another and next thing you know I've been working with that client for years. Events are also great because they are recurring year after year so that is repeat business if you work for the main sponsor or the event organizers.
Almost all of my business comes from these events, people at these events are getting married (they need wedding videos), they are having kids (birthday party videos / gender reveals, etc.), they run their own business (business promo videos, product demos, etc needed), etc. etc., I shoot a ton of small stuff thanks to these events. To this day if I haven't handed out 500 cards at an event that I am filming then I am not doing it right.  I never let up on the networking because events, sponsors, and attendees come and go each year so relying too heavily on any one of them for revenue the next year is a recipe for failure if they don't host or sponsor that event the next year.
Of course my approach only works in a large city or somewhere where you can easily drive to a large city. Where I live I could literally shoot nearly any type of event I wanted on any given weekend (sports, food festivals, music festivals, races, fashion shows, etc.). I once shot a live concert for a customer that needed a city activities promo video and ended up shooting a music video for the band because I gave them my card after the concert.
I have also had plenty of offers to work directly for the sponsors on their media team but I like being freelance, after working literally everything for the past 10yrs I am not interested in joining a team; but if that is your thing that could be the way into a more predictable career field.

It is tough, very tough, even now most of my well paying clients are repeat clients; I do a ton of one hit wonders like headshots, photo studio work, etc. but repeat business and word of mouth is the real secret. Of course that is the photography side of things. For video many of my customers started with photography and eventually needed video then kept coming back to me for both.  
My particular video niche is big events (boat races, car shows, food festivals, fashion shows, etc). That niche in turn spawns tons of side projects (photo shoots, promo videos, talking heads, training videos, etc. etc). So if I were starting over right now today I would just Google events in my area and start going to them and filming them for free.
I have a branded shirt with my business name on it, I also have business cards, and I would wear my shirt and pass my cards out literally everywhere. I would shoot entire highlight reels of the events, really focus on handing out my business cards to the vendors and try to figure out who the organizers were. If I could work my way up to the organizers and main sponsors I would offer to tag them on IG and FB when the video and photos were out and give them my business cards which would ensure they saw my work.
I would give it less than 3 months of that before I started having sponsors, organizers, and event attendees reaching out to me for photos and video. Within about 6 months in a reasonably large city I would have my whole network built back up.  I keep stressing photography because in my niche it is so important. So many people contact me for photography and they never even considered video until I recommend it. One thing leads to another and next thing you know I've been working with that client for years. Events are also great because they are recurring year after year so that is repeat business if you work for the main sponsor or the event organizers.
Almost all of my business comes from these events, people at these events are getting married (they need wedding videos), they are having kids (birthday party videos / gender reveals, etc.), they run their own business (business promo videos, product demos, etc needed), etc. etc., I shoot a ton of small stuff thanks to these events. To this day if I haven't handed out 500 cards at an event that I am filming then I am not doing it right.  I never let up on the networking because events, sponsors, and attendees come and go each year so relying too heavily on any one of them for revenue the next year is a recipe for failure if they don't host or sponsor that event the next year.
Of course my approach only works in a large city or somewhere where you can easily drive to a large city. Where I live I could literally shoot nearly any type of event I wanted on any given weekend (sports, food festivals, music festivals, races, fashion shows, etc.). I once shot a live concert for a customer that needed a city activities promo video and ended up shooting a music video for the band because I gave them my card after the concert.
I have also had plenty of offers to work directly for the sponsors on their media team but I like being freelance, after working literally everything for the past 10yrs I am not interested in joining a team; but if that is your thing that could be the way into a more predictable career field.

It is tough, very tough, even now most of my well paying clients are repeat clients; I do a ton of one hit wonders like headshots, photo studio work, etc. but repeat business and word of mouth is the real secret. Of course that is the photography side of things. For video many of my customers started with photography and eventually needed video then kept coming back to me for both.  
My particular video niche is big events (boat races, car shows, food festivals, fashion shows, etc). That niche in turn spawns tons of side projects (photo shoots, promo videos, talking heads, training videos, etc. etc). So if I were starting over right now today I would just Google events in my area and start going to them and filming them for free.
I have a branded shirt with my business name on it, I also have business cards, and I would wear my shirt and pass my cards out literally everywhere. I would shoot entire highlight reels of the events, really focus on handing out my business cards to the vendors and try to figure out who the organizers were. If I could work my way up to the organizers and main sponsors I would offer to tag them on IG and FB when the video and photos were out and give them my business cards which would ensure they saw my work.
I would give it less than 3 months of that before I started having sponsors, organizers, and event attendees reaching out to me for photos and video. Within about 6 months in a reasonably large city I would have my whole network built back up.  I keep stressing photography because in my niche it is so important. So many people contact me for photography and they never even considered video until I recommend it. One thing leads to another and next thing you know I've been working with that client for years. Events are also great because they are recurring year after year so that is repeat business if you work for the main sponsor or the event organizers.
Almost all of my business comes from these events, people at these events are getting married (they need wedding videos), they are having kids (birthday party videos / gender reveals, etc.), they run their own business (business promo videos, product demos, etc needed), etc. etc., I shoot a ton of small stuff thanks to these events. To this day if I haven't handed out 500 cards at an event that I am filming then I am not doing it right.  I never let up on the networking because events, sponsors, and attendees come and go each year so relying too heavily on any one of them for revenue the next year is a recipe for failure if they don't host or sponsor that event the next year.
Of course my approach only works in a large city or somewhere where you can easily drive to a large city. Where I live I could literally shoot nearly any type of event I wanted on any given weekend (sports, food festivals, music festivals, races, fashion shows, etc.). I once shot a live concert for a customer that needed a city activities promo video and ended up shooting a music video for the band because I gave them my card after the concert.
I have also had plenty of offers to work directly for the sponsors on their media team but I like being freelance, after working literally everything for the past 10yrs I am not interested in joining a team; but if that is your thing that could be the way into a more predictable career field.

CAF doesn't work with the MC21 and EF lenses for the S5. I have heard that somehow it works for the S5II, probably because they mostly ditched DFD.
 
Actually yes it is, with useable CAF I would have had a far higher keeper rate which is why I am now back on the Canon train. I have heard it all, who needs AF, real shooters use MF, Hollywood cinema cameras all use MF etc....but none of that matters to me when I am shooting an event and flying a camera on a gimbal that has no AF or shooting handheld at an event or for a project.
If I had a support team and a dedicated focus puller and all of the Hollywood bells and whistles I wouldn't care about AF either; in fact I still use MF quite often even with Canon bodies for many situations such as talking heads, rack focusing, shooting through obstructions such as grass or fences where the AF will pick the wrong subject, when it is too dark, etc; I have no problems manually focusing when the situation calls for it; but having to manually focus for every shot will absolutely yield more throw aways than with a camera with useable CAF unless you have a dedicated focus puller, or something else contributing to your success (wider lens, simpler scenes, more time to prepare, etc.)
It is easy to cherry pick specific instances where MF looks fine, and when you have the time to properly block a scene and dial in the focus or repeat a scene then that's all good and well, especially if you are shooting as a hobbyist where no one cares about the footage you didn't get; in fact I have plenty of tack sharp footage in many projects that were shot with MF, but try MF shooting even one of my events and you will encounter a much different story.
My typical event has a shotlist that is multiple pages (vendors, VIPs, activities, talking heads, etc.), I am shooting photos and video, going from indoors to outdoors and back, working with the audience or attendees who will only stand still for a few seconds for a picture, and maybe a few seconds more for a quick video clip, and all the while everyone and nearly everything is in motion, and that is all handheld, I haven't even started talking about shooting on a gimbal yet; and yes I did it for years with the GH5 and S5; but at the end of the day it was completely exhausting and limiting to always have to work within the limitations of MF, to never know if a shot was sharp until reviewing it later, etc. 
So yes, it is my opinion that in 2023 if your keeper rate is low due to lack of useable CAF then it is absolutely the camera's fault. MF is great and even necessary for many scenarios, but when shooting as a OMB so is AF. Both have strengths and weaknesses and there is nothing wrong with having the option to use AF when that particular shot can be better served by AF allowing you to focus on other things (no pun intended).

CAF doesn't work with the MC21 and EF lenses for the S5. I have heard that somehow it works for the S5II, probably because they mostly ditched DFD.
 
Actually yes it is, with useable CAF I would have had a far higher keeper rate which is why I am now back on the Canon train. I have heard it all, who needs AF, real shooters use MF, Hollywood cinema cameras all use MF etc....but none of that matters to me when I am shooting an event and flying a camera on a gimbal that has no AF or shooting handheld at an event or for a project.
If I had a support team and a dedicated focus puller and all of the Hollywood bells and whistles I wouldn't care about AF either; in fact I still use MF quite often even with Canon bodies for many situations such as talking heads, rack focusing, shooting through obstructions such as grass or fences where the AF will pick the wrong subject, when it is too dark, etc; I have no problems manually focusing when the situation calls for it; but having to manually focus for every shot will absolutely yield more throw aways than with a camera with useable CAF unless you have a dedicated focus puller, or something else contributing to your success (wider lens, simpler scenes, more time to prepare, etc.)
It is easy to cherry pick specific instances where MF looks fine, and when you have the time to properly block a scene and dial in the focus or repeat a scene then that's all good and well, especially if you are shooting as a hobbyist where no one cares about the footage you didn't get; in fact I have plenty of tack sharp footage in many projects that were shot with MF, but try MF shooting even one of my events and you will encounter a much different story.
My typical event has a shotlist that is multiple pages (vendors, VIPs, activities, talking heads, etc.), I am shooting photos and video, going from indoors to outdoors and back, working with the audience or attendees who will only stand still for a few seconds for a picture, and maybe a few seconds more for a quick video clip, and all the while everyone and nearly everything is in motion, and that is all handheld, I haven't even started talking about shooting on a gimbal yet; and yes I did it for years with the GH5 and S5; but at the end of the day it was completely exhausting and limiting to always have to work within the limitations of MF, to never know if a shot was sharp until reviewing it later, etc. 
So yes, it is my opinion that in 2023 if your keeper rate is low due to lack of useable CAF then it is absolutely the camera's fault. MF is great and even necessary for many scenarios, but when shooting as a OMB so is AF. Both have strengths and weaknesses and there is nothing wrong with having the option to use AF when that particular shot can be better served by AF allowing you to focus on other things (no pun intended).

That is very unfortunate, sometimes I take for granted how easy it is to walk into a retailer to buy the camera I want or how easy it is to order from an authorized retailer.

That is very unfortunate, sometimes I take for granted how easy it is to walk into a retailer to buy the camera I want or how easy it is to order from an authorized retailer.

That's a good point with the MF switch, I just haven't gotten used to it, when I need to switch back and fourth I usually hold the camera differently and keep the left hand on the lens barrel vs on the side handle, plus I need it there anyway once the lens is in MF because I need to use the focus ring on the lens to keep focus from that point forward. 
The R8 actually has nothing I want, I don't need a FF sensor for anything that I do and the R6II has nothing that I need. My camera purchases are done hopefully for at least the next 3-5yrs. I have a dedicated photography camera (R5), dedicated hybrid camera (R7), a dedicated video camera (C70), a dedicated time lapse camera (Canon Rebel), and a dedicated action camera/underwater camera (GoPro), between those five there is no project I can't shoot that comes my way and if I need more for a specific project then I will just rent what I need.
I wouldn't mind upgrading my timelapse camera to a body that uses the same batteries as the R5 and R7 but the Rebel is so good at what it does (3000 pictures when the battery grip is installed) that I have never needed to swap batteries on a shoot; plus I don't want a more expensive camera that is usually unattended for hours at a time so its a small loss if it gets stolen.
Of course production companies and TV stations are not using the cameras we discuss here, they have completely different requirements, teams of people and gear to properly rig and support their cameras, and the budgets to match.  My niche is event work and all of the little projects that don't have the budgets for that sort of thing and fortunately there's tons of options these days that makes my job a lot easier.

That's a good point with the MF switch, I just haven't gotten used to it, when I need to switch back and fourth I usually hold the camera differently and keep the left hand on the lens barrel vs on the side handle, plus I need it there anyway once the lens is in MF because I need to use the focus ring on the lens to keep focus from that point forward. 
The R8 actually has nothing I want, I don't need a FF sensor for anything that I do and the R6II has nothing that I need. My camera purchases are done hopefully for at least the next 3-5yrs. I have a dedicated photography camera (R5), dedicated hybrid camera (R7), a dedicated video camera (C70), a dedicated time lapse camera (Canon Rebel), and a dedicated action camera/underwater camera (GoPro), between those five there is no project I can't shoot that comes my way and if I need more for a specific project then I will just rent what I need.
I wouldn't mind upgrading my timelapse camera to a body that uses the same batteries as the R5 and R7 but the Rebel is so good at what it does (3000 pictures when the battery grip is installed) that I have never needed to swap batteries on a shoot; plus I don't want a more expensive camera that is usually unattended for hours at a time so its a small loss if it gets stolen.
Of course production companies and TV stations are not using the cameras we discuss here, they have completely different requirements, teams of people and gear to properly rig and support their cameras, and the budgets to match.  My niche is event work and all of the little projects that don't have the budgets for that sort of thing and fortunately there's tons of options these days that makes my job a lot easier.

That's a good point with the MF switch, I just haven't gotten used to it, when I need to switch back and fourth I usually hold the camera differently and keep the left hand on the lens barrel vs on the side handle, plus I need it there anyway once the lens is in MF because I need to use the focus ring on the lens to keep focus from that point forward. 
The R8 actually has nothing I want, I don't need a FF sensor for anything that I do and the R6II has nothing that I need. My camera purchases are done hopefully for at least the next 3-5yrs. I have a dedicated photography camera (R5), dedicated hybrid camera (R7), a dedicated video camera (C70), a dedicated time lapse camera (Canon Rebel), and a dedicated action camera/underwater camera (GoPro), between those five there is no project I can't shoot that comes my way and if I need more for a specific project then I will just rent what I need.
I wouldn't mind upgrading my timelapse camera to a body that uses the same batteries as the R5 and R7 but the Rebel is so good at what it does (3000 pictures when the battery grip is installed) that I have never needed to swap batteries on a shoot; plus I don't want a more expensive camera that is usually unattended for hours at a time so its a small loss if it gets stolen.
Of course production companies and TV stations are not using the cameras we discuss here, they have completely different requirements, teams of people and gear to properly rig and support their cameras, and the budgets to match.  My niche is event work and all of the little projects that don't have the budgets for that sort of thing and fortunately there's tons of options these days that makes my job a lot easier.

I felt the same way after the R5 ridiculous BS, but I had to set my personal feelings aside and buy what was best for my business. I came very close to going all in on Panasonic for photography and video but I couldn't bring myself to buy into the L mount "alliance" or go all in on a system with such terrible AF.
With Panasonic out of the picture and my large collection of EF mount lenses, when the C70 came out and the R7 came out they were simply what was most economical and what worked best for my business.
Canon sensors really aren't known for their DR, even the C70 with its famous DGO sensor is just ok IMO, not the revolutionary breakthrough that the marketing materials would lead you to believe.  But with all modern cameras being so good, just ok is good enough for me when combined with its other features. 
I feel the same way about the R7, and R6II, their IQ is good enough for anything I need and the story you are trying to tell with them is far more important than specs on paper. 
The R8 on the other hand IMO has a lot of real world compromises (battery size, ergonomics, single card slot, etc.) that I feel are more important than IQ to keep it at its current price point with a FF sensor. YT and other social media platforms do far more damage to my IQ than any crop sensor or line skipped footage ever will. 
Today right now I feel that Sony and Canon have the most complete ecosystems, since I already have an investment in Canon EF glass, it is a natural choice for me to stick with Canon's ecosystem.

No I didn't just go by what Andrew said, I looked at it for myself, and the R8 is missing the back wheel around the joystick which I use on literally every single shoot, they moved the photo/video switch to the left side which means I would need to let go of my side handle to flip the switch vs the R7 which is on the right side and right under my thumb allowing me to instantly switch from photos to quick video clips during events, and last but not least it is even smaller and lighter than the R7.
When shooting video handheld I like big heavy cameras, the bigger and heavier the better for stability especially since Canon has IBIS wobble problems with wider lenses. The R7 with a cage and side/top handles is the perfect size for me, big enough to easily rig heavier but small enough to quickly strip down to a gimbal camera.
I never use the touch screen to focus, that would mean I would need to take one hand off of the camera and touch the screen. I stick to center cross hairs and keep both hands on the camera. The R5, R7, and C70 all have a back wheel which I use to quickly adjust the aperture or shutter speed without letting go of the camera. Only my Canon Rebel doesn't have a back wheel and for that camera I don't care since it is just a timelapse camera.
So yes, I did reach my own conclusions that the R8 is not as ergonomically friendly to my specific shooting style as the R5 or R7 and is closer in ergonomics to my Canon Rebel.
I will never get a camera with a single card slot when dual card slots are available on so many cameras. Many more things can happen to footage vs just the card going bad or the camera stopping the recording. I shoot event work and most of my customers re-hire me year after year, all it would take is one year of lost footage for them to hire someone else leading to much more lost revenue than the cost of getting dual slots. Computers can get infected with viruses that wipe out your footage, if you are transferring the raw footage onsite with the client their computer could be infected, or their card reader could fry your card, etc. etc. None of this has happened to me but I have had a few clips disappear in the middle of a project (possibly accidentally deleted or overwritten) and I have used the second card to get it back.  With equipment being so good these days sometimes the only thing separating the professional from the beginner is the level of preparation for when things go wrong.
When I need multiple cameras for a project I pair the R7 with the R5 or C70, if I had to buy an additional camera body tomorrow then I would just buy another R7. If your budget is $3K and you need two camera bodies then I would recommend two R7s, that way they can share batteries and accessories, menus and ergonomics are identical, etc. I just really don't see what the big deal is about shooting FF or non-line skipped 4K60FPS. RS doesn't bother me since I don't shoot fast action. 
As I mention in many of my posts, these are just my opinions, my workflow, and what works for me, in today's times, there's something for everyone.

No I didn't just go by what Andrew said, I looked at it for myself, and the R8 is missing the back wheel around the joystick which I use on literally every single shoot, they moved the photo/video switch to the left side which means I would need to let go of my side handle to flip the switch vs the R7 which is on the right side and right under my thumb allowing me to instantly switch from photos to quick video clips during events, and last but not least it is even smaller and lighter than the R7.
When shooting video handheld I like big heavy cameras, the bigger and heavier the better for stability especially since Canon has IBIS wobble problems with wider lenses. The R7 with a cage and side/top handles is the perfect size for me, big enough to easily rig heavier but small enough to quickly strip down to a gimbal camera.
I never use the touch screen to focus, that would mean I would need to take one hand off of the camera and touch the screen. I stick to center cross hairs and keep both hands on the camera. The R5, R7, and C70 all have a back wheel which I use to quickly adjust the aperture or shutter speed without letting go of the camera. Only my Canon Rebel doesn't have a back wheel and for that camera I don't care since it is just a timelapse camera.
So yes, I did reach my own conclusions that the R8 is not as ergonomically friendly to my specific shooting style as the R5 or R7 and is closer in ergonomics to my Canon Rebel.
I will never get a camera with a single card slot when dual card slots are available on so many cameras. Many more things can happen to footage vs just the card going bad or the camera stopping the recording. I shoot event work and most of my customers re-hire me year after year, all it would take is one year of lost footage for them to hire someone else leading to much more lost revenue than the cost of getting dual slots. Computers can get infected with viruses that wipe out your footage, if you are transferring the raw footage onsite with the client their computer could be infected, or their card reader could fry your card, etc. etc. None of this has happened to me but I have had a few clips disappear in the middle of a project (possibly accidentally deleted or overwritten) and I have used the second card to get it back.  With equipment being so good these days sometimes the only thing separating the professional from the beginner is the level of preparation for when things go wrong.
When I need multiple cameras for a project I pair the R7 with the R5 or C70, if I had to buy an additional camera body tomorrow then I would just buy another R7. If your budget is $3K and you need two camera bodies then I would recommend two R7s, that way they can share batteries and accessories, menus and ergonomics are identical, etc. I just really don't see what the big deal is about shooting FF or non-line skipped 4K60FPS. RS doesn't bother me since I don't shoot fast action. 
As I mention in many of my posts, these are just my opinions, my workflow, and what works for me, in today's times, there's something for everyone.

No I didn't just go by what Andrew said, I looked at it for myself, and the R8 is missing the back wheel around the joystick which I use on literally every single shoot, they moved the photo/video switch to the left side which means I would need to let go of my side handle to flip the switch vs the R7 which is on the right side and right under my thumb allowing me to instantly switch from photos to quick video clips during events, and last but not least it is even smaller and lighter than the R7.
When shooting video handheld I like big heavy cameras, the bigger and heavier the better for stability especially since Canon has IBIS wobble problems with wider lenses. The R7 with a cage and side/top handles is the perfect size for me, big enough to easily rig heavier but small enough to quickly strip down to a gimbal camera.
I never use the touch screen to focus, that would mean I would need to take one hand off of the camera and touch the screen. I stick to center cross hairs and keep both hands on the camera. The R5, R7, and C70 all have a back wheel which I use to quickly adjust the aperture or shutter speed without letting go of the camera. Only my Canon Rebel doesn't have a back wheel and for that camera I don't care since it is just a timelapse camera.
So yes, I did reach my own conclusions that the R8 is not as ergonomically friendly to my specific shooting style as the R5 or R7 and is closer in ergonomics to my Canon Rebel.
I will never get a camera with a single card slot when dual card slots are available on so many cameras. Many more things can happen to footage vs just the card going bad or the camera stopping the recording. I shoot event work and most of my customers re-hire me year after year, all it would take is one year of lost footage for them to hire someone else leading to much more lost revenue than the cost of getting dual slots. Computers can get infected with viruses that wipe out your footage, if you are transferring the raw footage onsite with the client their computer could be infected, or their card reader could fry your card, etc. etc. None of this has happened to me but I have had a few clips disappear in the middle of a project (possibly accidentally deleted or overwritten) and I have used the second card to get it back.  With equipment being so good these days sometimes the only thing separating the professional from the beginner is the level of preparation for when things go wrong.
When I need multiple cameras for a project I pair the R7 with the R5 or C70, if I had to buy an additional camera body tomorrow then I would just buy another R7. If your budget is $3K and you need two camera bodies then I would recommend two R7s, that way they can share batteries and accessories, menus and ergonomics are identical, etc. I just really don't see what the big deal is about shooting FF or non-line skipped 4K60FPS. RS doesn't bother me since I don't shoot fast action. 
As I mention in many of my posts, these are just my opinions, my workflow, and what works for me, in today's times, there's something for everyone.

I felt the same way after the R5 ridiculous BS, but I had to set my personal feelings aside and buy what was best for my business. I came very close to going all in on Panasonic for photography and video but I couldn't bring myself to buy into the L mount "alliance" or go all in on a system with such terrible AF.
With Panasonic out of the picture and my large collection of EF mount lenses, when the C70 came out and the R7 came out they were simply what was most economical and what worked best for my business.
Canon sensors really aren't known for their DR, even the C70 with its famous DGO sensor is just ok IMO, not the revolutionary breakthrough that the marketing materials would lead you to believe.  But with all modern cameras being so good, just ok is good enough for me when combined with its other features. 
I feel the same way about the R7, and R6II, their IQ is good enough for anything I need and the story you are trying to tell with them is far more important than specs on paper. 
The R8 on the other hand IMO has a lot of real world compromises (battery size, ergonomics, single card slot, etc.) that I feel are more important than IQ to keep it at its current price point with a FF sensor. YT and other social media platforms do far more damage to my IQ than any crop sensor or line skipped footage ever will. 
Today right now I feel that Sony and Canon have the most complete ecosystems, since I already have an investment in Canon EF glass, it is a natural choice for me to stick with Canon's ecosystem.

I felt the same way after the R5 ridiculous BS, but I had to set my personal feelings aside and buy what was best for my business. I came very close to going all in on Panasonic for photography and video but I couldn't bring myself to buy into the L mount "alliance" or go all in on a system with such terrible AF.
With Panasonic out of the picture and my large collection of EF mount lenses, when the C70 came out and the R7 came out they were simply what was most economical and what worked best for my business.
Canon sensors really aren't known for their DR, even the C70 with its famous DGO sensor is just ok IMO, not the revolutionary breakthrough that the marketing materials would lead you to believe.  But with all modern cameras being so good, just ok is good enough for me when combined with its other features. 
I feel the same way about the R7, and R6II, their IQ is good enough for anything I need and the story you are trying to tell with them is far more important than specs on paper. 
The R8 on the other hand IMO has a lot of real world compromises (battery size, ergonomics, single card slot, etc.) that I feel are more important than IQ to keep it at its current price point with a FF sensor. YT and other social media platforms do far more damage to my IQ than any crop sensor or line skipped footage ever will. 
Today right now I feel that Sony and Canon have the most complete ecosystems, since I already have an investment in Canon EF glass, it is a natural choice for me to stick with Canon's ecosystem.

I felt the same way after the R5 ridiculous BS, but I had to set my personal feelings aside and buy what was best for my business. I came very close to going all in on Panasonic for photography and video but I couldn't bring myself to buy into the L mount "alliance" or go all in on a system with such terrible AF.
With Panasonic out of the picture and my large collection of EF mount lenses, when the C70 came out and the R7 came out they were simply what was most economical and what worked best for my business.
Canon sensors really aren't known for their DR, even the C70 with its famous DGO sensor is just ok IMO, not the revolutionary breakthrough that the marketing materials would lead you to believe.  But with all modern cameras being so good, just ok is good enough for me when combined with its other features. 
I feel the same way about the R7, and R6II, their IQ is good enough for anything I need and the story you are trying to tell with them is far more important than specs on paper. 
The R8 on the other hand IMO has a lot of real world compromises (battery size, ergonomics, single card slot, etc.) that I feel are more important than IQ to keep it at its current price point with a FF sensor. YT and other social media platforms do far more damage to my IQ than any crop sensor or line skipped footage ever will. 
Today right now I feel that Sony and Canon have the most complete ecosystems, since I already have an investment in Canon EF glass, it is a natural choice for me to stick with Canon's ecosystem.

I felt the same way after the R5 ridiculous BS, but I had to set my personal feelings aside and buy what was best for my business. I came very close to going all in on Panasonic for photography and video but I couldn't bring myself to buy into the L mount "alliance" or go all in on a system with such terrible AF.
With Panasonic out of the picture and my large collection of EF mount lenses, when the C70 came out and the R7 came out they were simply what was most economical and what worked best for my business.
Canon sensors really aren't known for their DR, even the C70 with its famous DGO sensor is just ok IMO, not the revolutionary breakthrough that the marketing materials would lead you to believe.  But with all modern cameras being so good, just ok is good enough for me when combined with its other features. 
I feel the same way about the R7, and R6II, their IQ is good enough for anything I need and the story you are trying to tell with them is far more important than specs on paper. 
The R8 on the other hand IMO has a lot of real world compromises (battery size, ergonomics, single card slot, etc.) that I feel are more important than IQ to keep it at its current price point with a FF sensor. YT and other social media platforms do far more damage to my IQ than any crop sensor or line skipped footage ever will. 
Today right now I feel that Sony and Canon have the most complete ecosystems, since I already have an investment in Canon EF glass, it is a natural choice for me to stick with Canon's ecosystem.

At the end of the day you are right...tons of economical options; but this is an R8 thread so it is still interesting to see different people's perspectives on Canon's latest release. My final verdict is that its an ok camera at its price point, but not the best fit for my needs even at its price point since the R7 is at the same price point.
For me specifically, the FF sensor comes with too many compromises and those compromises are more important to me than the sensor size. If I absolutely had to purchase a FF body today right now I would get the R6II; if price was more important to me then I would get the S5II, there is just no scenario for me where I would get the R8.
Most if not all of the used options on your list don't have useable AF which is far more important to me than sensor size. In a year when you can get the R6II, R8, and the S5II at a decent used price then used will look at lot more attractive.

At the end of the day you are right...tons of economical options; but this is an R8 thread so it is still interesting to see different people's perspectives on Canon's latest release. My final verdict is that its an ok camera at its price point, but not the best fit for my needs even at its price point since the R7 is at the same price point.
For me specifically, the FF sensor comes with too many compromises and those compromises are more important to me than the sensor size. If I absolutely had to purchase a FF body today right now I would get the R6II; if price was more important to me then I would get the S5II, there is just no scenario for me where I would get the R8.
Most if not all of the used options on your list don't have useable AF which is far more important to me than sensor size. In a year when you can get the R6II, R8, and the S5II at a decent used price then used will look at lot more attractive.

One camera was released in 2023, the other was released in 2020. A 2023 camera shouldn't be comparable to a camera released nearly 3 years earlier, regardless of the price.
Canon doesn't deserve a ticker-tape parade for releasing an average camera with one great feature (and several handicaps) just because they priced it lower than a bunch of cameras that are 2-3 years older than it. It's a pretty damning indictment of Canon that people think they do simply for not releasing a lemon.
An entry model camera that was released three years ago! Within 6 to 12 months there will be a FF camera that exceeds what the Canon R8 can do, and probably significantly, while priced competitively. 
 
You are laser focused on that one spec and just ignoring everything else that was cut from this camera. Outside that one spec, and the better autofocus, it's not even a more capable camera than the 2 1/2 year-old S5 that now goes for $1000 used and the same price brand new as the R8.
The obsession with full frame has become so entrenched that functional cameras are completely dismissed by some folks because they have crop sensors. It's just crazy.
It's not so much that it's not a big deal because of those cameras, it's just not that big of a deal because it's the natural progression camera companies have been moving toward, except most of those companies are moving towards that without removing camera features like Canon does.