TheBoogieKnight

1 hour ago, Django said:

Interesting, well looks like even the mighty S1H has got some pretty glaring limitations..

At 6K 3:2 mode the S1H has a whopping 29.7ms of RS. Barely usable outside of locked shots.

Anamorphic shooting aside then, it is certainly possible to compare (16:9) IQ:

S1H has 5.9K. A7IV has oversampled 4K from 7K.

In 16:9 4K/5.9K RS averages at 24ms. That's about what the A7IV does.

10-bit is 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2. Win for the A7IV.

4K60p is cropped on both.

Sony has latest-gen PDAF with tracking vs contrast AF.

Sony has SLog3 & S-Cinetone profile. Not sure about the Panasonic.

Anything else concerning IQ?

 

 

There's always a lot of talk about the heavy-handed NR that Sony use in their cameras. It does look like the 7IV is a nice bump up in terms of IQ (other than the rolling shutter and crop) from the 7SIII. The Panasonics are 4:2:2 unless you use the crop modes (which you have to for 4k 50/60) or 6k/open gate when they drop down to 4:2:0. I'm not too bothered about the crop on either to be honest, the IQ is still great. The S1 lacks an AA filter so you can get moiré at times (never really been an issue here), do we know if the 7IV has an AA filter yet?

Still happy with my S1s, paid under £800 for my last two but I'm definitely thinking of adding a 7IV for gimbal work.

23 minutes ago, Django said:

For sure if you're into anamorphic lenses, Panasonic set themselves apart from the rest.. but that's a rather niche market though isn't it? 😉 

I've read about those new SIRUI FF anamorphic lenses available in all popular mounts, why are they best paired on a S1H?  I thought the S1H anamorphic mode cropped into Super35? As for the desqueeze preview, couldn't an Atomos handle that? Just curious, I have close to no experience with anamorphic but I'm interested in those new SIRUI lenses.. 

You can shoot open-gate with that lens on the S1 and S1H.  You can set a desqueeze but I don't think 1.6 is available (but you can get close). Pretty bad rolling shutter in open gate though but it's usable.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

One is a video focused camera, the other is a hybrid with good video specs. You can't say the A7iv matches the S1H when it can't do 6k, doesn't have as good IBIS, doesn't support anamorphic recording, doesn't have video focused features like timecode sync, doesn't have shutter angle, doesn't have nearly as nice of a EVF, has worse rolling shutter, etc. 

All the little things the S1H has that are meant for professional videographers and cinematographers add up. 

I'd happily give all of them up (other than the IBIS) for the ability to actually punch-to-focus during recording and an HDMI out that doesn't have horrendous latency.

On 10/15/2021 at 3:19 AM, IronFilm said:

Can you link to that? I thought from memory its SDI was much lower 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4525245#forum-post-65032086

2 hours ago, Django said:

Sony's in a delicate position. Aside from 4K120p, low-light and RS it's going to be hard to charge that much more for an A7S3 so the cripple hammer may happen on A7IV with 4K60p. On the other hand this camera's direct competitor is going to be R6 that already does non-crop 10-bit 4K60p. But if they manage zero overheat 4K60p, the crop may get overlooked.

Time limits?

On 10/8/2021 at 9:29 PM, TomTheDP said:

Google "Nikon z9 8k RAW"

The lack of being able to dial Z-cams ND off is a bummer but at least there is an option. Otherwise you'll have to get a vari ND and deal with the color issues that those provide. The Zcam F6 is the competitor against the BS1H in my opinion. The BS1H is $3500 while the F6 is $4000. The S6 is only $2500 and is also S35. The S6 does 4k 100fps though and crushes all the VFR modes on the S1H and BS1H which are pretty crap IMO. 

The option for SDI out is great but if you are going solo with this camera and shooting prores RAW, pulling focus is a bitch off the slow latency HDMI. Prores internal would be a nice feature to have. 

The BS1H is cool but its more of a specialty rig cam. I am waiting on a full frame EVA1 with hopefully a less chinsey body and 10 stop NDs. 

Do we know the SDI latency with the BS1H? I saw some tests done on the BGH1 and the latency via SDI was identical to HDMI.

Ah, does have 4k 120 and video says no overheating!

22 minutes ago, Simon Young said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jTgFe4xy9eRW53M727fsSgw0VibjNbrG/view

No 4k/120, only 1/200 mechanical flash sync and a micro HDMI? These aren't the real specs surely?

5 hours ago, deezid said:

Yes, no sharpening, so it appears less sharp, but it also has way more detail and especially texture, since the noise reduction nearly isn't as destructive as on the A7sIII.
A way superior image basically, closer to the Panasonic S5, Blackmagic Pocket 6K etc.

What about the 4k? I realise people said it's less sharp but overall image compared to the SIII? Does it have an advantage in less aggressive NR etc.?

9 hours ago, macnerd said:

I had the a7s3 and now own the A1 and so far I think the a7s3 image is sharper straight out the box. When I had the a7s3 I used zeiss 25mm an now I'm using the sony 24mm on the A1

Thank you. Have you noticed any difference at all in AF performance between the 2?

23 hours ago, Django said:

I've been shooting a lot with the R6 this summer including a run&gun event last week. The IQ I'm getting from the CLog3 10-bit 4:2:2 files is quite possibly the best 4K IQ I've gotten on any camera. The image is so clean, so detailed, with those great Canon skin tones.  To avoid the poor RS I often shoot in 4K60p crop mode. I don't notice any line skipping either, really sharp detailed IQ on my 5K iMac Pro monitor.

I must agree that for the price, the R6 outclasses all the competition in terms of IQ.

 

Have you found the DR on the R6 to be ok? One of the things mentioned in a couple of reviews was that it was quite limited compared to the competition.

Still looking for a B (sometimes A) cam to my Panasonic S1s. Has anyone tested the A1 and compared its footage to the A7SIII or S1/S1H? I really don't want to spend that kind of money but if it's a step up from the SIII then I could probably be swayed (I do a lot of photography too so if I ponied up the extra for the A1 I could sell one of my S1 bodies). Love the image out of my S1s to be honest but want a body with great AF (and 4k 120 would be nice) to be used on a gimbal and the A1 (and 7SIII) seem to tick the required boxes.

Cheers

Is there anything stopping a company just adding compressed RAW recording into a battery grip.

16 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

I do not know why there is higher rolling shutter on 5.9K. Maybe it has to do with processing is software based vs hardware based, I really don't know.

This DPReview article states so at the very top bullet in on the linked page that the 4K image is from an Oversampled full sensor. Panasonic marketers stated this in a YouTube video. that the S1R did line skipping, and that is why the 4K footage is not as sharp as the S1/S1H footage.

How do you find the 4k/24, 6k and 4k/60 compare in post after editing. Can you get them to look pretty much the same once you edit sharpening etc.?

12 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I have been meaning to investigate further just how dual gain works...

Is it only in log then?

Ie, the camera itself will only switch between 640 or 4000 as it sees fit and disregards all other ISO's, or something else?

But yes, I (currently) shoot in the Natural profile though I am considering log after some further future AF and lens testing.

So shooting with a profile, dual gain doesn't apply, ie, the best settings are not necessarily 640 and 4000, but whatever works best?

My rule of thumb is always to shoot with as low an ISO as possible and I use a variable ND all the time outdoors during daylight plus indoors a lot of the time because I tend to shoot mostly wide open with fast glass.

Ultimately for me, it's about finding the best balance of; workflow (log requiring more work), best picture quality (log if graded well without resorting to raw) and highest dynamic range (log I presume?).

Currently quite pleased with what I am getting from the Natural profile, but if I can get a better result without creating a headache for myself re. workload, I'm interested in looking at it further.

Dual native gain is in all profiles but has different ISO point. Normal profiles are 100 and 640, HLG 400 and 2,500, Cine D2/V2 200 and 1250 and V-Log 640 and 4,000. On the S1H you can choose which circuit to use but the S1 switches automatically. If I get to the >2,000 range in V-Log I'll usually jump to 4,000.

I've shot in non-log profiles before in low-light but I've read that V-Log is best period (except on the S1 at 50/60p where it's currently only 8-bit).

I've shot with the 24-105 F4 in V-Log in not particularly bright room and been pretty happy with the performance. 

Have there been any tests yet of image quality and DR using RAW and Neat NR? 

19 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

Anyone used both the S5 and the Sony A7Siii? My heart says S5 as an upgrade from the GH5 but I have a client who only uses Sony and having a Sony could mean more work. But I've hardly ever seen anything that I like shot on a Sony DSLR (colours and texture). Whilst I'm loath to have 2 systems I'm thinking of maybe just getting an A7iii with a Tamron 28-70 to get work with this particular client (agency with lots of clients) and getting a S5 for my own jobs for my clients (events, weddings etc). Other than the AF on the Sonys (amazing) I'm just not convinced they are better than Panasonic.

I'd be selling all by m43 gear (GH5, GH5S, loads of lenses etc) and would take advantage of being able to discount all VAT.

Any thoughts are helpful!

90% video 10% photo. Lots of run and gun and I like to get everything right in camera for minimal tweaking in post.

I think the question is do you need 4k/120, the amazing AF and access to a wider selection of lenses? Two Panasonic S1s here but I'm seriously thinking of adding an SIII just for those things. I don't think the image quality will necessarily be as good but probably not too far off. I love my S1s in pretty much every way (other than a lack of 3k/60 10-bit which is coming in an update).

It's available with external recording only on the S!H but I'm not sure if you can do it on the S5 or with the S1 with latest update.

31 minutes ago, Papiskokuji said:

Hello guys !

I shot my first gig with my new A7S III. So far it's exactly what I expected : a formidable workhorse for corporate videos or digital ads and many more things. It made huge improvements in usability even though there are still some things missing (like loading custom LUTs) but not many.

Image wise, it's very much a Sony camera. Its image is in line with the other alpha cameras (which is not a bad thing), only with better codecs. The codecs are good but not groundbreaking. It allows the image to show virtually no pink macro blocking and smoother gradation in the sky for instance. Oddly enough, the image coming from the X-T3 feels thicker, less processed (but I HATE the magenta shift in f-log and the skin smoothening effect, impossible to get rid of and never discussed !). The image of the A7S III is quite clinical. I feel the same about what I've seen with the C70 so far (that being said, I've never actually had the sooc footage on my computer). We are far from what we get with blackmagic raw or red cameras. This is not the camera to get if you're after the best organic thick image quality.

I was curious to try prores raw to see if things would improve with less digital treatment. So far prores raw support in premiere is very basic but you still get an unprocessed signal. I was a bit surprised. Even though there's no noise reduction (I thought NR + H264 codec was the main factor for this clean/digital image), Prores raw image is very close to internal recording. Sure there's more noise, but the image doesn't feel "raw" at all ! Still very clinical. I'm sure you can make wonders with it, but right out of the box, it has no real "mojo" advantage over the h264 10 bit.

Anyway, there are so many things to say about the camera, it is wonderful for anything delivered on the web. The colors have improved a bit (not by much) and are totally fine. I think I might make a video review of the camera since I think there are not many real world experienced user who have done one, but many gear reviewers.

I respectfully disagree with the previous OP who shot the commercial for the massaging thing who said it's a totally different camera than the previous models. I think it's almost indistinguishable if you watch footage online with youtube compression. I watched a few old clips from ads I made with the FS7, and dare I say, I find the FS7 having something more, i'm sorry, "filmic". So does my 5d mk III ML Raw footage. I'm sure every manufacturer does something different when it comes to their cinema line. I always felt that way reviewing clips from all the different cameras.

And I had a quick question for the other A7S III owners : can you also see faint lines on the rear lcd screen when it's off ? I can't really see them when it's on, I think it's normal, but just wanted to make sure.

Thanks ! Feel free to ask anything if you have questions about the camera ! I'm surprised the camera is not much discussed at all ! With everybody waiting for it for years and buying it.

Did you do much handheld with the standard stabilisation. Did you find it good enough?

7 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Maybe I am confused again 🤔

I could have sworn I read / heard somewhere that the R6 has a SIGNIFICANT crop when shooting 4K 60p (like 1.5X or something). But the chart posted a few posts up says you get 94% of the sensor width. Can anyone confirm??? 

And does anyone have any insight on the dynamic range (and low light performance) of the CLOG in the R6 compared to the VLOG of the Panasonic S1?

Thanks in advance, and apologies if i am asking questions with obvious answers. 🙏

Some YT tests of the R5 and R6 found the maximum under CLOG was 11 usable stops. The S1 if I remember rightly using the same parameters was 12.7 stops so a massive difference. The R5 does have the advantage of RAW and while there's actually less stops of usable DR, with noise reduction you'll almost certainly get more than you can out of CLOG although I haven't seen any tests investigating how much more.

Hi

Does anyone have any input on the noise penalty shooting in 4k 60/120 given it's using line skipping?

1 hour ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I think that @omega1978 suggestion of an a6400 might be a good one. I have an a6500 - which has an older version of the AF system found in the newer a6400 - and it keeps up with people skateboarding around, so I don't think it would have much of a problem with a bride and groom walking down an aisle.

do you still have an X-T3 lying around somewhere???

I realise the A6xxxx range don't have log but are there any profiles in them to protect highlights while still giving enough latitude in the shadows? There's no problem using FF lenses with these right?

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Right folks, all out of ideas.

Freestanding monopod, 20-60mm and repeated attempts at 20mm, 35mm and 60mm.

4k 50p which is supposed to be best.

Natural profile,

Every combination of speed and sensitivity from the extremes to opposites and everything in between.

Repeated to death.

Human tracking, human and animal tracking, normal tracking...

I can't get one single continually in focus shot of a human subject walking towards the camera, eyeballing the camera.

It shows it's locked on but when the face is blurry and the trees 30 feet behind are going in and out of focus...well we have a problem and I need a solution.

Unless anyone can show me another way, I cannot use this camera for one of it's intended purposes.

For everything else it passes and passes with flying colours, but for up to 10 critical sequences of about 10 seconds each, it doesn't work.

As soon as the subject is still, it's FUCKING BRILLIANT. Well, at least pretty good and good enough. But if they move forwards or backwards, game over.

So I have a couple of options including:

Option A: Use something else for this specific type of capture and that could even be a decent short tele compact with phase detect (assuming such things exist?). Ideally needs to be something that I can match up to Panasonic Natural profile and so could be log (again if any compacts shoot log?).

Option B: Go for something with a larger sensor but without busting the bank (ie, no, a Sony A7Siii is not a great idea for 100 seconds per job of capture!) but what might match up nicely to Panasonic profile footage?

Option C. Go even more extreme and swap out the dedicated static video unit and the filming unit for an entirely different system that could be anything that shoots 4k 50p internally and preferably in 10 bit. Fuji, Canon, Sony new boy are all I can think of that have good or great AF.

Option D. Keep just the single S5 I have currently and the kit lens and keep this as the dedicated video unit. Do something completely different for hybrid. It would need to be; XT4's, latest Canon twins, combo of the two most recent Sony's.

Ideally I JUST WANT THE S5 TO WORK and for 95% of everything, it does but I cannot ignore this 5% that does not.

Any/all ideas welcome! Because I am all out of them. In regard to the S5 and this single specific issue anyway...

 

 

Sorry it didn't work out for you. I just did some more tests today with similar results to yours. Sometimes it works (even with a subject moving forwards/backwards) but it's so unreliable. The worst thing is that when it loses focus it often just gives up and doesn't even try to get it back. If you (or anyone else) finds a solution I'd love to know. I see posts all the time saying it's not that bad but (even after the updates) it's not reliable enough to actually use in a job, unless you have the luxury of multiple (and it would be multiple) takes. It's also massively effected by lighting conditions. 

I'm going to stick with my S1s and add something else. I'll probably wait a few months till the R5/SIII drop in price. The AF on both (especially the SIII) looks remarkable.

On 11/24/2020 at 12:51 PM, Walter H said:

Firmware 1.6 has just been released: https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/index4.html

Improved autofocus, gain, 4k xfer over wifi, other bits...

Careful if you're using 120FPS on the EVF. Something has been broken and now if you're near LCD/LED lighting it can fail to focus. Few people reporting it on other forums, confirmed on my S1 bodies

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I tried again before sunset.

The Pan 85 has a really nice ‘clean’ look both on the LCD and downloaded on the desktop.

However, AF was not great subject moving forwards and a return to background pulsing. Arrrgh!

I had turned up the sensitivity and had it in AFC.

I will try again tomorrow in AFS and play with the settings.

The Sigma I tested back to back. It does not compare. Focus was dreadful and it did not look nearly as nice on the back of the screen or after being downloaded.

That one is going back for sure.

So tomorrow I will give the new 85 one last chance. It has to pass this AF test or the entire system just won’t work for me.

For static, manually focused, locked off video, great.

For stills, really good, but I need at least decent AF for ‘filming’.

I feel a return to Fuji is on the cards...

Pair of XT4’s for video/filming + a pair of S5’s for stills has been a Plan B ‘just in case’.

I'm honestly not sure you'll find the great AF you're looking for with Fuji. I'm in a similar boat; two Panasonic S1s (which I absolutely love) but sometimes I need a camera with great AF. I really don't want to spend the $$$$ on an R5 or SIII but I've watched (and read) so many reviews on the other systems and I don't think the AF is great on them either (certainly better than the S1 but not in the same league as the R5/SIII).