anonim

I understand this thread as opportunity for (the most serious and well minded) message to Panasonic.

Blog post summarized it all.

What I can add as small holistic addition is suggestion that it is the last chance for Panasonic (or it will be done by somebody else) to collect all very important and still distinctive virtues of m43 system and finally offer them in one camera. I mean, don't behave as not too smart little calculating coward - because moment of camera evolution doesn't allow to be as such.

Barrier of price has been already broke through  - I think that even 3000e starting price for m43 movie making machine is pretty competitive with added qualities mentioned in blog post. At the end of a day, this clearly is territory for professionals who make money with camera, or for high end enthusiasts (finding field of deeper self-actualisation in camera usage) seeking for best artistic instrument.

Being now pretty serious involved in sort of art creation, my experience with both m43 and FF system told me that - at least in that field of interest - they are clearly not competitive, but different in some very important areas.

For just one example: contrary, as it seems, to most public, I found that possibility to get deeper DOF with better light gathering (even more taking into account modern sensor sensitiveness) is crucial for my way of thinking. For making truly rich art experience, shallow DOF has to be used extremely sparingly, or even not at all. There is far more demanded mastery, and respective distinctive achievement, in capability to arrange scene with meaningful and seriously thought out content in background, than cheaply and lazy blurred it. Potential in transferring complex and deeper message in just one shot is at the side of deeper DOF, but demands more talented mind and much more crafting mastery.

Being so close to the perfectly capable camera regarding compactness, reliability, ergonomic, RAW as best codec, ND, maybe or not IBIS, with best possible 4k delivery quality as indeed far away future proof, etc mentioned in blog post - price gap of say 500e is not so important. Nor the race between m43 and FF who understand their distinctive virtues.

Chance to sooner bring to table the most rounded instrument is still on the m43 side with its lens ecosystem, including affordable cheap truly cine zoom solutions such as, at the moment, say DZO film's. Even with fast gradually catching up, of course including bonus crop choice, FF system is not even close to offer comparatively affordable and compact cine zoom lens.

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

To be in the loop you have to sign the NDA. I find it intolerable as a journalist to have to sign NDAs in order to get privileged info. It is the complete opposite of journalism.

Nice and sort of pleasure to be distinctively brave.

It could be that Panasonic tries to sell last part of residual GH5 components.

It could be logical that expected GH6 specs will be bring up in a different body as a Komodo competitor, also as added supported  factor for pretty higher price. Now they have experience with BG1, or what is proper name.

If it is the case, mysterious teasing has to be expected at not so distant future, sort of EVA1 prehistory or GH5s announcing.

Briefly going throw recent posts, I noticed (but maybe I'm wrong) that there's no participating activity from that nice guy that promote GH5s with short movie - so hope that maybe he is at DNA task testing something knew, because he was serious, successful and loyal promoter previously. Although if I remember he also mentioned better prospects of devotion to music making.

I yet think that at least one camera maker sooner or later will certainly gather all virtues of M43 mature knowledge together from all sides, as also profitably utilize all that great lenses. Who it will be - it is uncertain.

For indie movie making, M43 will for some time more rest comparatively superior effective as the fast submarine under sluggish aircraft carriers.

Market of course chase for profit though with bigger-numbers universal mantra for masses.

Hi @Kisaha, sorry for delayed visiting to forum...

No, I'm from Serbia, but as you might know, Serbia&Montenegro are actually the exact same people historically/politically being together or divided (as now) to two countries. (Being passionate and trained swimmer at summer and winter without difference) I spend there as much time as I can.

If you don't mean actual covid-circumstances, apart of it - it is of course absolutely safe country, especially beautiful at here filmed part of its coast (places of Boka bay) famous as very unique and one the most beautiful and deepest bay in the world.

About movie - I've made preparation and started with few shots of one indie-movie last autumn in Russia, but Corona stopped plan of devoted whole spring/summer 2020 to it. So I gathered little crew during late summer - so, 2-3 months ago - in Montenegro and also started with several shots with them, with idea to proceed this winter/spring. Several of chosen locations are here briefly presented. Actually, whole idea for movie in Russia also started with meetings in Montenegro coast.

(And just for the case of little bit of clearing of my background and circumstances - actually and basically I'm writer/novelist with some of 15-20 novels published as Collected works and also with several written Ph. D. dissertation in Philosophy, Psychology and History of Arts topics, all parts of mine education... and struggling to earn money during lifetime always as freelancer. But started from several years ago I'm more and more devoted also to building personal narrative film making area, and because of my background I supposed easier to managed other people to participate in some enjoyable projects. So, in that line, it turned out that at the moment some pretty profiled and educated people - musical and dance artists, painters etc - from Russia are the most open minded and willing to reunite resources and skills to make something new and, I hope, aesthetically pleasing experience.)

While shooting an semi long feature film latest days of this summer, I took a breath and one day climbed around and casually recorded some used locations with lovely Pocket 4k.

Maybe it would not be too boring, so just little bit оf reminding of of the beauty of not so distant nature, so happy living out of our - so often desperately and absurdly busy - human world...

On 9/20/2020 at 8:44 PM, Kisaha said:

sorry for bringing that back, but I can't seem to find this filter.

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Hoya-77mm-Cut-Screw-Filter/dp/B006OIJTIG/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=ir-cut+filter&qid=1600627370&sr=8-3

is this ok to buy? any other suggestion? 

When do you people use your IR filters? and can you use it with an ND or Polarizing one?

Sorry, being busy for a while... but luckily mr nickname answered/suggested better than I could. I use also Hoya IRcut with Hoya ND without any issue, but I don't use polarizing filter. Rocolax has the same quality, just cheaper, friend of mine bought for me in UK.

I had  OLPF filter with first Pocket just because I bought it with already installed one - extremely helped with moire problem that luckily doesn't exists with P4K.   

For me, problem is Panasonic's sincere will to allow development to full potential of m43 system, in comparison to what they see as a better profit future of FF, which I really don't see, but of course I am nobody in that regard (as also in many other).

IMO, if such will really exists, there's no excuse of non existing sensor, even nor for too special developing effort: they could make full usage  of Pocket 4k or GH5s (E2) sensor with all their great contemporary know-how that they have at disposal: IBIS surely even better than S1H, newest and better CAF (less demanding calculation and heating polution),  brilliant screen, maybe even doubling processors as Olympus EM1X for HDR calculation, some sort of internal RAW - possibilities are endless. DR of Pocket 4k is enough even for theatrical projection, battery of S1H can last literally whole day long.

But such flagship will probably stopped many of us to think about any other camera next several years, and, much more important, to buy any new lens. I have feeling that Panasonic lost its way in somewhat too complicate and retro founded profit calculation - IMO it is better and more appropriate for today's circumstances  to make brief impact and comparative hit-camera, to shake market and take money of the majority of seriously hesitant customers of the oversaturated market, than to relay of uncertain long prospect projections and compare with other big Japanese manufacturers (and theirs not so clever decisions).

Of course, as all of us m43 enthusiasts here, I'm writing this with hope that somebody from Panasonic really reads this thread 🙂 

I'm afraid that this thread actually approves something that Panasonic management is highly afraid of (although loudly claiming the opposite) - that hypothetical GH6 and S line indeed severely overlapped in most critical user/buyers base that is left to Panasonic as slightly comparative advantage. Most of us who'd buy an great-specs-provided GH6 will never look at unnecessarily expensive S(H) line for next 3 years... and actually we are the main targeted group of potential buyers whom Panasonic stuff mostly tries  to allure to FF line.

 Unfortunately, from indefinite phrases as "we will consider", "we will see or still evaluate" etc. it seems to me that development of GH6 is not at all in progress, as also that they'd rather connect eventual/suspectful dying future of m43 to some low level type of camera for lighter consumer usage.

Needless to say that I disagree with such decision even from economic side. And same as previous posters already noted their favorite alternative choices,  without GH6 in plan I feel BM as main provider for my personal needs. 

Till now it is clear that FF line is total selling fiasco in Europe and not too better elsewhere. I simply can't understand why Panasonic don't choose rather to make and sell tones of swan song model of GH6, catch proper moment to attracts all Pocket 4k and/or Olympus users and keep enormous base of loyal GH5 users....     

33 minutes ago, User said:

Hilarious. Can you imagine 'The Crow' giving a talk at some PC University in 2020?

Well I guess that settles that then. Nice.

IMO I bag you pardon, maybe it would be better to involve some more time to really investigate where all of this one and thousands similar cases are proved to be pure sad true? If you have a will, I can provide it to you, but not here to further contaminate thread already polluted  with superficial news level.  I think, It's surely not at all about someone's favorite side (dirty and immoral ones are everywhere the same) - which you introduced with something that has to be a provocative joke and default fact - but about favorite and really independent state of mind.

And of course, my big apologize to you and all others - it is always my dilemma weather to answer to something I feel as superficial provocations that sometimes arise at inappropriate  place. Maybe just only to remind all of us (with me as so sadly often first-place-candidate!) and add suggestion at called-out level of picture-to-picture answer

8 hours ago, User said:

Citation?

https://lists.bcn.mythic-beasts.com/pipermail/bitlist/2008-October/000400.html

17 minutes ago, User said:

Well they nailed your Lal Bahadur Shastri 😉

(Actually, to be precise in digression, Shastri has been killed by CIA - at least such was later confirmed by CIA's assistant director for clandestine operations.) 

19 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It has parallels with the world in general.

We have in Russia today a dying man who has been horrifically poisoned, screaming in agony on a plane and straight into a coma from which he may never pull out.

Leader of the opposition to Putin.

The RT news anchor tosses the peasant people some lie.

"It is low blood sugar. Always carry candy"

The low effort of that bullshit, and the distain for the intelligence of the general populace.

And it is the same thing with Toneh.

Toss the peasants some badly research bullshit dressed up with a whiteboard zapping key phrases at the audience. Pure clickbait. Pure cynicism.

Ah you stole the idea... Nobody will notice. Just say you forgot. Whatever.

Who cares.

End of days stuff my friends.

Thank you to all on here who have helped research and inform on the overheating findings these past few weeks.

If such rise of comparison really is fitted, IMO far better (and far more clear) example would be destiny of Julian Assange - we have in UK/London today a dying man at Her Majesty Prison being guilty for disclosing and documenting reckless bloody state of USA driven Western civilization global behavior living on (the same R5's) premise Nobody will notice. 

Who cares.

TBH and with best wishes to mr Reid's efforts that already achieved their honest goal without supporters - that bald guy looks to me as just another package of obscurity.  As also his (more sympathetic naive) psychologically typical advisory/conspiracy space arrangement of deep knowledge cave. IMO someone stole his dreamy ideal - so let's to be a little part of it.

It looks as counter-twin brother of that another advisory guy with presenting room where forever stays Christmas Eve...

8 hours ago, Hanriverprod said:

What really bugs me is when they say some company sent them the product but they are not sponsored and that we will get an honest review. It's like wtf. The whole reason your channel has relevancy is because these companies send you these products early for you to do your 'honest' review which consists of gushing over how awesome the product is except for one little flaw that's not a big deal.

Let's be real, these guys cream all over themselves to exchange emails with companies like Sony and Canon and Apple and Samsung about new product launches and there is no way they can be objective at all regardless of whether they say its sponsored or not. Either they got the product early or they are building their channel up to get the product early. And you can't do that by burning bridges.

So to mediate this conundrum they find themselves in they say they did not send the video to be checked. Doesn't matter. They are psychologically chained to make sure they keep these corporations happy so they can keep getting their emails and possibility of early product reviews.

They keep the video 95% positive and then mention some weak point every one already knows while basically showing a 10 minute commercial of tracking shots of said product.

They then every once in a while pick a product from a smaller company to trash or do a really honest review not concerned with a backlash from that company.

The only exception is when the corporation releases a real stinker of a product and everyone knows which gives them cover to post an 'honest' review.

These people are basically marketing mouthpieces and pretend like they are doing us a service when they are just basically a new cog in an overhyped consumerist economy.

No, IMO they are just, in their inner deep, simple moral prostitutes. Their living depends of cheap showcase flirting with internet visitors of their shopwindows. Even their idiotic sugary versions of unison quasi friendly calling to you at the beginning of their luring IBIS dance - is echo of prostitute's behavior, of course not at all so honestly open and much more sophisticated vulgar. Look just at that blondе - so much effort to look funny, intimate and close, so much usage of space as (his and his co-prostitutes) smiling brothel.

18 minutes ago, kye said:

Matti credited EOSHD in this video... but didn't link here.

46K views after being up for 15 hours.

(Last topic's) lessons on shameless opportunism, part 3...

14 hours ago, wolf33d said:

When I say that I do not care, I mean that I do not care if they put a limitation in the camera if then they remove it. 
A company is here to make profit. When they "listen" like Fuji and bring you a good feature update, that's not to make you happy or because they are nice guys. Fuji CEO couldn't care less about you, as much as Canon CEO. They do bring that update because they think you are more likely to buy their camera and stay with them if they do it. They do it for your money. 

Stop being blind, camera manufacturers are not charity. They want to make money, and they happen to have different strategies for doing so. Canon strategy is to cripple lower priced camera to have you buy a more expensive one. Fuji strategy is to bring you software update and pretend they listened to you. I agree that Fuji strategy is much better. Yet for my need, the R5 could be a much better tool than any Fuji or Panasonic on the market. At the end of the day is what TOOL do you need, and which company is making that tool. The tool I need today, a hybrid 50/50 photo/video FF camera with 4K60/120 and IBIS and great AF only exists with Canon appart from their soft limitation. They remove the limitation I buy it. they don't remove it I don't buy it. Nobody is walking over me, I am making a choice based on my need. If you don't buy the R5 in case they fix it despite the fact it was the tool you needed just to punish them, you actually roll over yourself. 

I share this opinion - or feeling 🙂 As all nowadays  globalist companies Canon fundamentally think just about profit, and all their rhetoric  that may allude on ethic is pure fake, total hypocritical and artificial. I don't really expecting any sort of moral attitude from their side, their all behavior or possible correction of behavior is strictly determined by market and profit answer. They are simply fundamentally immoral per definition, and accusing them from moral standpoint is inadequate... when all state/society morality and legality actually is just matter of degree-tolerance to inevitable corruption everywhere.

But what makes me - as visitor of this forum - feel so good with mr Reid effort, is full exposing of that so-call powerful youtube influencers that disgustingly pretend that are on "our" side, some of them even be so shameless to point out that are not paid by manufacturers.  Moreover, I feel satisfaction that mr Read's pattern of attitude seems to now stands out in spite of being during last months convicted as aggressive and non-collegiate toward his thematic internet colleagues.

Simply, I greatly enjoy (and easily identify myself) in every successful example of "stubborn idealistic little man against powerful hypocritical system" battle 🙂

It's beginning to evolve as great scenario for future feature film: tenacious whistler vs system. And by "system" I don't mean so much on Canon (its behavior was more or less expected) but on those established gang of sugary annoying first youtube testers. Actually, their ambiguous comments were - now it is obvious - completely in line with Canon strategy, carefully measured, tempered and servile mislead. What is especially disgusting is how all of them now again carefully correct and upgrade their first reports. Really not at all new story, but always so insipid.

9 hours ago, JordanWright said:

I found a Xyla chart test of the Komodo on the FB user group. Thought i'd download the R3D and put it in a timeline to compare against Cinema 5D's test of the Pocket 6K. I'm no expert, and obviously these tests came from different sources, but it gives a fairly accurate result of what to expect.  Id like to get hold of the BRAW still to compare them slightly more closely.  

I found that nothing in camera specs is not so much elusive and subjective as trying to measure DR in some sort of experimental condition - after camera crosses certain high threshold for resolving demand inside-outside space (or shadow to bright sunlight) range that is aesthetically relevant (I mean not looking from deep cave to harsh midday desert sun). Simply, when crucial distinctive variable is "noise", there're too  many subjective variables that are include in someone's impression. So, the most and only relevant to me are tests strictly side by side where we can more evidently judge also (or above all) a "quality" of DR.

For example, I already posted this IMO interesting test in a dedicated thread, so I apologize for  quoting it here, just to illustrate my opinion

Pocket 64 vs Alexa Mini

With download ready R3D files 

4 hours ago, Inazuma said:

It also to my taste has better colour... The colours aren't THAT different... And  "thick colour" is the same nonsense as what photographers call "3d pop".  You're just reaching for terminology to reinforce/shill your idea. 

What if someone simply defines differently phrase "It also to my taste has better colour" - as "thicker" or "3d pop"?

(BTW and for example - that first example with lovely geese looks to me THAT different... but I admit that not so rarely  I see/express nonsense 🙂 

8 hours ago, sev7en said:

Question by newbie... can be a solution also for still picture?

I think only as moving stills taken from footage sequence - but F6 is effective 26MP FF camera with open gate of pretty huge 6064x4040 usable with 10bit value internal recording.

Maybe it is safe to assume that J. Brawley has at least some weight of consulting influence to BM plans. It seems that his enjoy to participate in forums discussions provide closest possible information through wall of anti-hints attitude that IMO looks dictated and compatible with rest of G. Petty personality expressions. Last that I've read by mr Brawly about that matter is (quote from Personal View):

"It's funny people talk about how great the Z cam is, but I think that BMD kind of did it first with the MICRO. A camera I use a lot. My personal wish would be for them to update THAT camera, maybe go to a full MFT sized version of the 12K sensor."

12 minutes ago, Super8 said:

Why is the Komodo a USA only product?

Simply because of practical reason - it is very hard to buy RED in, say, Eastern Europe, price will be much higher, there's no supporting network in neighborhood, being till now pretty close system doesn't help also (Komodo is better in that regard). To cross boundaries become more and more hard task - say, I personally am not easy traveler (actually in this life phase I hate to travel without highly creative reason) and I have to relay on help and good will of friends or some sort of admirers in UK,  France, USA, China to get such components that look "exotic" from my side... which, as any favor, is not too pleasant experience... (Movie making is not at all my primary creative field, so I have no collegial sort of channels nor, even less, any serious income from that activity... I'm just motivated to start some new creative branch from the beginning and from ground up, simply greatly enjoying process as new-youth game🙂

I like Komodo approach very much. After following first very disappointing  footage samples, that one last posted finally confirm great quality - and for 6000$ for black version it beats even lowest Dragon. But regarding actual world's circumstances and prospects, it is almost exclusively USA product. It will not help RED to get broader costumers and will still stay as niche product... in the movie art/industry that now is extremely democratized and descended down to masses all round the world.

Knowing little bit of circumstances in China, I'd say that Chinese manufacturers now just desperately wait first decision of some sort of government support to start more seriously to conquer the market. At the moment, BM with extremely swift and clever approach rapidly takes more and more of the widest user base.

I

18 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I considered that camera too, but everything I read stated it does not perform as well as the C200 in low light and I read the quality control is just not as good for the BM cameras. Many users have reported weird issues with theirs and I just didn't want to risk dealing with that.

The codecs and recording options for the UMP G2 are awesome though. I will admit at the end of the day I just like Canon's menus and ecosystem so I started out my cinema camera search a bit biased towards Canon.

Strangely, but I managed to deal with and checked both 🙂 Actually, I had UMP G1 and worked with C200. It seems that G2 finally has stable ISO3200 15 stops performance without fear of any FNP, whitch was main concern to worry with  G1. Looking just to final Image and codec manipulation especially (including cost of media), UMP is far better than C200, at least for narrative movie project - but C200 has the most beautiful and cleverest compact form factor (although cheaper body) I had opportunity to work with... Several month ago I started first to prepare, and than first shooting days of one feature film - and because of working condition (moving quickly, travel abroad to and from Russia including its some wilder area), I decided to base everything on starter kit of 2 Pocket 4k (it was only cine-capable camera that, if something fail, could be buy and replaced quickly everywhere).