Kino

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

And how in any way would a mirrorless camera cannibalise sales of a $15,000 full frame C500?

I'm not sure about the C500 II, but it sure would put a damper on these plans:

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-to-introduce-two-8k-cinema-eos-cameras-in-2021-cr2/

One of these Cinema EOS cameras will no doubt be on the level of the C700, as they speculate, but the other one will likely be a cheaper and more compact variant that could be severely undermined by a fully-functioning 8K RAW camera for $4K.

This is some of the best footage I have seen from the camera. A7SIII colors and DR rival 16 bit linear RAW from F5/F55 from a few years ago, all of that in a 10 bit 4:2:2 codec:

In the hands of a capable shooter, the lack of internal RAW is no limitation at all.

On 8/12/2020 at 8:46 AM, Ed David said:

I'm curious how it compares overall to the red epic mx that you can get used for around the same price.

Seeing some comparison tests on reduser, between Komodo and the alexa - I like the curve of the footage - feels nice and rich.  But definitely - and I don't know if its the grade - still has that trademark red handling of blue.  Which kind of feels more electric or magneta than natural blues, and not the same quality of green that the alexa does so well with to make skintones and environments feel so natural.  

But hey, it's a 6k camera.  But hey, also, I never, in a larger discussion figure out why Red never modified their sensors or color science to get away from this.  I love the smoothness and look of red footage - that just convinced me to sell my red epic mx and my 2 red one mx when I had them and never get back on the red train.

 

If you look back on the clips that were posted, such as the plane at the airport, you can see that while Komodo has trouble with noise and low light, the color fidelity is not sacrificed as it can be with a lot of cameras in the $6K range. When the lights go down, the bit depth does not suffer: it does not go "thin" or start looking like 8-bit footage when you withdraw light. I can't speak to the colors in the grading process as I haven't downloaded any of the R3D files, but you can probably get it to match any of the modern RED sensors close enough. This is, after all, intended as a gimbal camera and not as a main one. So it is somewhat taking the place of the very capable RED Raven 4.5K, albeit in a very different marketplace. Nowadays, for just two thousand more, you can get a Kinefinity MAVO LF ($8K brain), which is an incredible camera for the price and I think a much better option as a proper cinema cam:

Has anyone tried comparing the R5 overheating and recovery times with the BG-R10 battery grip in place?

On 8/8/2020 at 7:35 PM, JordanWright said:

Thanks for your thoughts! I wouldn't take the curves on those charts as accurate, I just brought the 1st stop on the Komodo to match the Pocket to demonstrate the difference accurately. I also wouldn't go as far as a full stop improvement but you could totally argue more than the 0.4 I suggest, I chose to side with caution because the Komodo seems noisier. But again, these charts aren't 100% accurate, Im sure that when someone more knowledgeable than me gets to testing we will get better results.

I'm not sure about Pocket 6K, but it's true that Komodo is noisier than Gemini and Helium and doesn't have the same DR:

Then again, for $6K, you are getting a "discount Dragon," so no complaints!

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

slashcam has tested RS and 8k, 4kHQ is 16ms!!!...... boy they have created what would be the perfect hybrid but nobody can use for video because the recovery times are just insane.

Either is software crippled or it has a big HW flaw.... if the first let's hope they remove/fix if the second why they don't sell a version in a bigger body with a Fan?!? 

8k 30 RAW, 4k oversampled from 8k 10bit with 16ms RS and AF and nobody can take advantage..... what a waste.

Problem is that is a very good photo camera (best canon ever) so even if they do nothing they will sell a ton....

I have no doubt this 8K sensor will find its way into Canon's cine lineup with proper heat management. But you will be paying a lot more cash for this privilege.

Like any Japanese conglomerate, Canon are masters of product differentiation. They will never give you everything in one product and they will never give you more for less.

Indeed, it turns out this camera has amazing RS performance, but it is otherwise hobbled vs. the 1DX III when it comes to usability for video. It also lacks the more creamy look of the 1DX III and has slightly less DR. You can see how it clips easier in this test:

:

2 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

You can record 8K internally at higher frame rates.  Which is downsampled internally from 12K. This will give you better 8K in the same way 8k can give better 4K.

As for lens mount, maybe you missed this on the press release:

"You can quickly switch between PL, EF and F mount lenses on the URSA Mini Pro 12K"

I watched the whole presentation live on their YT channel weeks ago. Grant did say you can switch the mount to EF by purchasing it separately, but my point is that it is a camera intended for high-end PL glass. That's not to say you can't use EF glass or that it won't work at all. On Blackmagic Forum, they posted a still image from the 12K camera using a Sigma 18-35 EF, so it is possible (but not ideal).

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

Buy the new Blackmagic then.  You get 12K.  It will be a better deal than 3 R5 you would need to take with you on a job to cover for the overheating.  Plus BRAW is a lot better than the Canon version for editing.  

I'm sure it's great, although FF 8K would have been much more sensible with less demanding optics. The optical challenge in resolving 12K at the Super 35mm sensor size requires lenses that cost far more than the Blackmagic camera.

It's a camera for rental houses, which is why it ships with a PL mount. There, they can rent you the $40K Cooke lenses you will need for that purpose.

9 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Nice video, with some great shots.  DR seems a bit off in some moments.  There's some of that IBIS twitch and wobble; I assume the lens wasn't allowing for the full 8 stop IBIS advertise.  Its no different to the GH5 IBIS.  

I expect we shall see a flood of videos with 8K in the title in the same way you got when 6K recording became the option.  Once the novelty wears off, will people still be shooting 8K given the file size and editing hassle.  

IBIS is no substitute for a stabilizer or tripod, unfortunately. I believe 8K RAW at Full Frame is ideal for landscape and architectural videography as well as stock footage. VFX guys and product shooters (commercials, ads) would also find it useful, I'm sure. 

Ooh la la! There is a bit too much contrast, but it is a nice image overall. There is also significant noise in some of the night shots, but that might be user error.

1 hour ago, JordanWright said:

I found a Xyla chart test of the Komodo on the FB user group. Thought i'd download the R3D and put it in a timeline to compare against Cinema 5D's test of the Pocket 6K. I'm no expert, and obviously these tests came from different sources, but it gives a fairly accurate result of what to expect.  Id like to get hold of the BRAW still to compare them slightly more closely.  

Left is Pocket 6K. Right is Komodo.

Cinema 5D rated the Pocket 6K at 11.8. (Blackmagic Claim 13) 
I would put Komodo at 12.2 (Approx) (RED claim 16.5+)
Cinema 5D rated the S1H as 12.7 (Panasonic claim 14)
Gerald Undone rated the A7s iii as 13.0 (Sony claim 15)

If you count the 12th stop on the Pocket, which is just barely off the noise floor, you would have to count the 13th stop on the Komodo. In either case, Komodo demonstrates a 1-stop improvement. Moreover, Komodo has 2 usable stops at or above 80 IRE and a much flatter curve overall. And this is to say nothing of the lack of an AA filter on the Pocket. RED, by contrast, employs very aggressive OLPFs that soften the image and give it a more filmic look. I do think Komodo is a bit soft for a 6K camera as a result, but that is just my preference.

Engineering guy: "I shot an entire wedding on the R5 in 1080P and it didn't overheat":

He even has to concede that the LOG on the R5 is not as flat as the EOS R. Like I said, this stuff just writes itself . . .

21 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

Probably soon canon will use their secret weapon and give us a final solution, they already have a patent for a fan that sits over the viewfinder.

This Canon patent was filed last year for the 1D body. It might find its way to the next 1DX or perhaps a "1DC II." Still, I would not rule out a new mirrorless flagship ("1RX") or a proper cinema camera to host this 8K RAW implementation. Patience is key. Good things come to those who wait . . .

RS is highly visible throughout the train sequence:

2 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

The main issue is the RS, and for the final price you can get something more suitable for you needs

Not for me. RS would not be an issue in most situations (static/tripod shots, sliders, and gimbals) and is greatly reduced in 60fps. You can even shoot 1.3 crop and 60fps to retain the DPAF. There is no other FF camera with internal 5.5K RAW and all these features for that price. On top of that, it can produce a very filmic image and will retain its value as an investment in case you need to sell it:

Moc Nguyen always seems to get the best out of the R5:

Is this getting closer to the 1DX III image quality? I think it is still a step below in terms of DR and creaminess.

21 hours ago, gt3rs said:

the thermal limits are there to protect nothing will be damaged or explode.... your mac pc phone whatever has thermal throttling this is why on high end machines cooling is so key to avoid throttling.... so nothing will explode. As the camera will overheat more and more without the limits is stops to avoid. It cannot throttle down the cpu because it will not be fast enough for the high end mode but it is fast enough for then non oversampled modes

One would assume so, and the camera is certainly not going to "explode," but you cannot be sure there will be no damage due to repeated overheating. There are no guarantees when it comes to electronics overheating. I've burned out plenty of electronic components (capacitors, circuit boards, light engines, etc.) over the years in TVs, monitors, and PC components, even with such throttling protection in place. With Canon, I've always said that they are the most reliable as the Toyota/Lexus of cameras, but they have never had a problem like this before. This is uncharted waters for Canon and its customers.

R5 overheats after 9 minutes in All-i 8K 24/30 fps (not even RAW) when testing the camera in the car (10:20). Then, a little while later when he starts recording again, it overheats much faster. This camera is basically unusable when recording longer than 1-minute clips. You also have to wonder what is happening to the long-term health of the internals (e.g., circuit board) considering the excessive heat generation. This $4K investment could easily burn out its circuits after the warranty period.

R5's 4k 120fps is super clean and very impressive,  but the camera in C-log simply lacks the DR of competitors like the S1H. Perhaps C-log 3 will help:

The G2 even does 300 fps in HD:

The 4k 120fps out of the URSA G2 should be added to that list.

This stuff just writes itself . . .

I love the URSA Mini Pro bodies and am delighted they chose to keep it. I never had the pleasure of owning one, but I would definitely purchase the shoulder mount and the EVF at some point. I hate shooting without an EVF in bright sunlight.

Like the FS7, the UMP form factor reminds me of the days when we shot on film with 16mm cameras. All you get from RED/Kinefinity/ZCAM is a shoe box with an articulating screen on top. What am I supposed to do with that?

Even Lok got one on "First Lok." Here, he shows why it is Canon's best vlog cam . . . until it gets too warm and you have to switch hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbqtkR_yyjM

1 hour ago, MeanRevert said:

At the risk of being savaged, has anyone actually seen a 'filmic' looking video yet?  The videos I've seen have been good, you know 'video', but nothing close to what I've seen come out of the Blackmagics.

I don't think it is going to win any DR contests, if that is what you mean. But if you keep the camera within its limits, it can generate some decent footage with no apparent noise:

http://vimeo.com/428556668

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UskTIP40HTQ

But, yes, overall the footage has been rather disappointing from a "filmic" perspective. Most of what we have seen demonstrates limited DR (around 10-11 stops) and a "thinning" of the color bit depth:

Some of that poor quality probably has to do with user error or lack of proper grading options. Otherwise, it is Canon's way of telling us to buy the 1DX III for video.