Kisaha

35 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Is that a real product? 

Edit: it is, I'll be damned!

Actually, JJC has a lot value for money products. I have some pistol grips and many accessories for bought from them. Also, recently got all my RF sun hoods from them. I didn't know about the umbrella though!

27 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

D-Cam duties is all it deserves. 

Some of the people that will buy this camera will make double or more, times more money this year than the 2 of us combined! And it won't even overheat! Haha!

@newfoundmass

My argument was that we all didn't start with the equipment we now use..I am not sure that this makes this camera less capable for what it was made for..there are half a dozen Sony cameras one can choose (for around that money) and I choose noone, by the way! For me it is not a big deal, for some people this camera is a dream, and I get it..

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Times change, as does how people get into video production and videography. You're unable to see things from a perspective that isn't yours @Kisaha. If you're a 21 year old kid (that's how old he was when he got his first paid gig) that is offered $75 to film a theater performance because you happen to own a camera for a YouTube channel you're trying to get off the ground, you're not going to have the experience and knowledge of someone that has been doing it for years and years. You're also probably not going to turn that opportunity down, either, because that's a credit card payment for the camera you put on credit.

I was only relaying how his path into videography began, and how he first purchased a camera that was limited and how that impacted his unexpected, but ultimately successful, transition into doing paid work. He now shoots with three A7siii bodies and is doing well for himself. His criticism of the ZV-E1 is pretty valid, because 5 years ago he would've been the target demo for this camera, probably purchased it, and found he'd spent $2200 on a camera that he couldn't use for the work he'd eventually end up doing. As he put it, there's dozens of better options that won't limit a person from following whatever path they end up taking, whether it's being a YouTuber or becoming interested in filmmaking or videography as a job.

His perspective was different from mine, and obviously yours, so I figured it was worth sharing.

Moot point..we now shoot Alexas and high end cameras for big projects, when I started young it was only film and terrible (cheap) digital, then we didn't even have dSLRs shooting video, then we didn't have mirrorless, in 5 years maybe the 4K of the A7sIII will be obsolete and everyone will shoot 8K..how is it possible to know that one will keep a camera for more than 5 years? Maybe the kid shoots with 3 Alexa's next..or what should have done when asked to film for 75$? Buy a 4.000$ camera instantly (which wasn't probably released yet?!?)? Moot point..

Whatever your way is, you never make ONE purchase, and stay with it forever..

3 minutes ago, Django said:

 

@newfoundmass I'd say Sony is expecting precisely your friends pattern. They want to lure in young newbies into their ecosystem with ZV-E1 and then have them upgrade to a more capable camera once they outgrow the limitations. Most noobs don't directly invest in the most expensive flagship.

I think his point was the 30mn record limit made A7iii a no go. As for C100mkII, meh.. that old sensor does not do good in low-light. I also find 4K/6K/8K invaluable for that type of work if you're on solo cam for punch-ins in post. I could actually see the new AI auto frame stuff being handy for quick turnover long format situations where you might not be able to move around like in a locked audience perspective stage performance. Obviously not the ZV-E1 but that tech in the next Sony cams may have potential. 

no one I know shoots or delivers 4K for long performances/dance/music/theater. someone might, but is definitely not the standard at this side of European Union..still a lot of people use the C100mkII as their moneymakers, hence the high prices for such an old camera. There is always light on stage, it is more likely to overexpose on such a situation than the opposite.

It wasn't the right tool for the job, I get it, but it doesn't mean much, or saying anything about this new release, or most of the cameras on the market..I never got a Sony, as it was never the right tool for me, but I never complained that it isn't the right tool, it isn't, for me, but it was right for a lot of people if I have to judge by sales!

@newfoundmass

I still found the case too specific to matter much..what was the job? I never shoot one camera only on performances, that is just crazy..even when I work alone I use at least 2, or even 3 cameras. With 1 photo camera you just ask for trouble..overheating, change cards (especially if you shoot 4K and above you will need a lot of those), batteries dying, someone trips on the tripod, you have made a small technical mistake - very common for unexperienced videomakers, completely wrong focus or searching/finding the right focus and I can keep going on for a few more lines for sure..

on cases that I shoot alone, and I do not do them anymore but just to keep the conversation going, I have one camera with a widish focal lenght and one with a tele zoom, that is the absolutely minimum..sometimes I was even having one on stage with a fish eye or ultra wide (very impressive for dance performances).

If he is really doing long performances, I would keep the A7iii as a B cam, it would be great for interviews as well, or a second body for photography (I always used 2 or 3 bodies for photographing such events..).

I would prefer Youtubers, stay on youtube..

I don't know how everyone started on the job, but I started the old school way, with 2 2-year diplomas, one Bachelor of Arts and 24 years of professional experience between those.

I wonder what is going to be his next purchase if he wants to become a pilot next..

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I was talking to a friend this morning who started out planning to be a YouTuber but ended up doing actual paid work and losing interest in YouTube. He's a Sony user and he gave me a different perspective for why this camera sucks and it is a pretty simple one: given it's limitations it can't grow with you.

His first paid jobs were because people knew he did "that YouTube stuff" and they wondered if he could film something for them. He was of course stoked about it, but ended up having a problem: his A7iii was good for his YouTube channel but the 30 minute record limit didn't cut it for the theater productions he was asked to film. Suddenly the camera that he bought because all the YouTubers he wanted to emulate were using it, and that he bought on credit (he was 20 at the time and didn't know better), wasn't the right tool for the job. He was able to get around it when he found out the trick to remove the limit, but he still found it'd overheat sometimes. His parents eventually helped him buy an A7siii once they saw the potential in what he was doing, but it was a costly lesson. 

Obviously his experience might not be typical, but his point was that if he was just getting started now he'd probably buy this camera but end up regretting it because of it's limitations. People's intentions/priorities change over time. People buying this camera might only intend to use it for YouTube and short takes, but what happens when your co-worker offers to pay you to film their kid's play? Or you're asked to film your cousin's wedding? 

Anyway, it was an interesting perspective from someone that started out as a YouTuber that I thought I'd share.

we just wrapped a few hours ago a documentary for the National TV. The first camera was an A7sIII and the second camera was an A7iii..

for most jobs, even an A7iii is good enough, if you shoot theater productions, even a C100mkII is ideal for it, which is not for most of the other stuff..

This is just one rare case..

most youtubers do not even care for "normal" jobs, and most blue collar videographers do not even know any youtubers..

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

No offense to the other posters, but the original poster mentioned taking stills with the camera so Blackmagic isn't a good option.

"It will also be used for taking still photos but this is much less important than the video quality."

There is nothing like BMPocket for video quality for the money though..the camera is taking stills also!

Bmagic Pocket would be ideal for the job description. Braw internal also..

1 hour ago, aaa123jc said:

I agree with the technical specifications. The tricks I can't say for certain though. It looks to me that cinematic mode does more harm than good at the moment. It may depends on how limited the knowledge of that person.

Anyways I haven't had a chance to test out this camera, so I'm just speculating.

If the ZV-E1 indeed can give someone with limited knowledge the ability to produce professional result, it's going to be a VERY BIG DEAL, but perhaps not so great for us professionals.😅

Definitely not for us! But these AI "gimmicks" can offer someone with very limited knowledge some "production" values. One of the best Sony sensor/stabilization also helps..

I am not defending the camera, I respect the product placement and the marketing decisions in this..

We all speculate, it will be strange for me to use this camera on any production that I usually work, but I get what are they doing, I guess.

2 hours ago, 92F said:

it could have been shot with anything... and in FHD

No point videos I call them..what is the point of those? What do we learn? That kids play soccer at some Arabic country? 

1:30 minutes of nothingness..

23 minutes ago, aaa123jc said:

Haven't been following the camera market for a while and then this ZV-E1 appears. WOW. What a camera.

Obviously I'm not their target audience so it makes sense that I find it uninteresting and too expensive. That cinematic mode sounds cool until you look at the image and it looks really bad. Almost like the picture effect of older sony cameras. The AI framing thing looks much more practical and interesting but I'm sure it's not yet ready for professional work.

A season filmmaker can make great videos with this ZV-E1, no doubt. But on the hands of newbiew vloggers or regular people who want a travel camera, the ZV-E1 isn't going to give them better results than much cheaper cameras.

Exactly the opposite, it has tricks and technical specifications that someone with very limited knowledge can achieve results much above his/hers abilities..

I did a small tour around the internets to see what's going on..well, it seems most people agree with my opinion, everyone is talking about the "best vlogging camera", and I am not going to spoil their party..

I also watched some Australian dude shooting outside 4K/50p I think, and didn't have any issues..

Isn't this the FX6 sensor anyway?

For YouTubers earning my money, or ones willing to be like their idols, this will be marketed as THE vlogging camera to have, and for the price, anyone can buy it, usually they spend a lot more for silly gimmicks, like offering money to waitresses, or cars, or go to a one day trip to Solomon islands, or drive a Bugatti or a F-15 jet, so spending 2.500$ for a camera and a couple of lenses is their least concern, especially if it is THE BEST VLOGGING CAMERA, out there.

I mean, 2.200$ is very cheap for THE BEST anything!

I am not sure if interests any one of us here though..we are definitely not the target group, but most - except me ofcourse! - had or have, or will have a Sony camera, so they do a lot of things right and the proof is in you at some point have invested on a Sony camera and/or lenses..

Because we are not going to agree on pricing let's take the U.S one, it is 3.500 with 2.200$. = 37% less

If it is a trap, and full hype, and cripple hammered, let's just called it marketing and market and product  fragmentation!

Obviously I am not supporting the camera, I wouldn't buy a Sony even if they were free of charge..but I am trying to be realistic and I see a lot of marketing (let's say, traps) traps here for the uninitiated..

What would most vloggers think?

Tiny body that sees in the dark with the most blurry stuff at the background that always keeps me in frame, stabilized, and mostly in focus, and just need one battery per day. All these while is very similar to the super expensive and professional bigger camera while I got it for 37% less. Also. FULL FRAME! what a bargain!

They will have a kit lens and one cheap prime to make them feel pro, and that's it..

..that is my impression of this release, and have all the basic stuff for commercial success, and camera companies are trying to sell cameras and lenses. There is no shame on that..

There are plenty of F and A cameras to choose from..this is a "top" vlogging camera with most of the insides of a 3.800 camera for almost 60% of that price..it is pretty obvious it won't be that camera, or else it wouldn't be a new release and it would cost the same 3.800..

There isn't a niche market that Sony isn't the leader at the moment. Most do not even have a competitive model..Sony runs this race alone!

What is to criticise when there is no competition? And they even have a full vlogging line up from 1", APS-C to full frame now.

Obviously it is not a camera targeting the People here, but I have to respect the clever market fragmentation and targeting by Sony management.

This camera clicks all the boxes for the intended target group, and then clicks some more with the A.I (is it really A.I?) chip and all the gimmicks "simpler" content creators (yes, those we have mentioned before!) will love.

Nowhere says "unlimited recording for the seasoned professional", you misunderstood the product..

..if you are still searching for the perfect camera, you will always be! Especially these days manufacturers seem to over specialize..

It's really simple what the E1 offers and why is going to be a big hit..

1) Cutting-edge technology for vloggers

Working with the ZV-E1's 12.1 MP1 full-frame sensor, the latest BIONZ XR™ engine provides high-speed processing to support 4K 60p, 120p upgradable2 recording, while an AI processing unit improves subject-recognition capabilities for advanced vlogging applications

- a very famous sensor with great chips around it! Zirgons, diamonds and pearls and fancy epistimonic words help to give gravitas anyway!

2) Sony's E-mount system

Vary your imagery with different lenses

- as I said, lenses became a huge advantage from a disadvantage for Sony

3)Intuitive Cinematic Vlog Setting

Create memorable imagery with S-Cinetone™ and other settings

By using Cinematic Vlog Setting5 and choosing a Look and Mood6, you can create cinematic vlog footage that matches the scene and your creative intent. The overall cinematic feel is further enhanced by the use of a 24 fps7 frame rate and the widescreen Cinemascope aspect ratio (2.35:1)8 with black bands above and below the image.

- "Cinematic" always sells cameras! Everyone wants to be "cinematic" whatever that is..Certainly has black bars above and below!

4)Rely on stable camera work

5-axis in-body image stabilisation, Dynamic active Mode and Framing Stabilizer

- a good stabilizer and a couple of gimmicks for the lazy ones..

5)AI-based Auto Framing for movies

Automatically adjust the framing to highlight your main subject

- for zombies that want to be filmmakers! 

6)Real-time Recognition AF

Human pose estimation using a skeleton-based model

- for zombies filming mummies!

7) Slow and Quick Motion

Capture action in superhuman detail

- for the Marvel funs and whoever wants to feel super..(funs of Thus Spoken Zarathustra included..the original super human)

😎Creative zoom control (the rocker in the on/off dial 

- ok, that is good to have regardless 

9) 3 mic audio

- sounds better than the usual and typical arrangement 

10) amazing battery

- after half a dozen of years with terrible battery life, when they did it, they really did it..

11) smallest full frame camera

- is it really? HUGE selling point..

12) A7sIII lite for a portion of the price

- ofcourse it isn't the A7Siii, so it doesn't cost as much.. everyone's happy..if someone needs what the A7Siii does and have..well...yes, right..

14 hours ago, Django said:

How is a ZE1 priced at 2699€ a better deal than an R8 at 1799€ ?

R8 may not have all those gimmicky AI functions but at least it doesn't overheat. Plus it has a EVF and front curtain shutter. Seems like much better value to me..

 

Z battery and IBIS plus all the gimmicks, (huge) PLUS LENSES suitable for the task. 

Marketed as an A7SmkIII lite..

R6mkII still 3.200€

R8 is 1.939€

A7SmkIII 3.999€

A7c is 1.999€

I am still waiting for the official local pricing, but it seems to me as perfectly fine for the targeted group, plus there are many more options up and down.

Sony is dominating the market at the moment. Every release is a power move it seems. For the targeted group is perfectly fine and the price very competitive..there are lesser options in APS-C with loads of new wide and ultra wide lenses for cheaper.

Sony did it again..and I hate them for it..

...meanwhile in Canon-land, the R8 is still 1930euros! If the trend continues, it will be all Sony until the end of decade..

I have inside information that Version 4 was referred internally as "The Reid Debacle"!

On 3/16/2023 at 10:33 PM, TomTheDP said:

Yeah I am happier shooting Canon, Fuji or Nikon for stills. Why bother using a system you don't like unless its absolutely necessary to do so.

I think two bodies isn't a terrible idea if you can use EF lenses on the pana body with no problem. To me for stills an EOS R would do just fine. Even a Canon DSLR, 5D or 6d, have a great look out of camera, though they are lacking in lowlight against the newer options.

As I said before, I just decided this summer to go the painful and full of compromises RF way.

Image is just like my 3rd job in the industry at the moment (I like to switch from time to time! mainly doing sound and assistant director for a few years for TV drama now), but I would like to come back to do smaller and more personal projects, because TV life gets tiring and stressful and I am not getting any younger!

I noticed the young generation are embracing just all these new technological advances, so I decided to experience this kind of attitude (though I haven't on a project yet, but I hope soon) and decided to invest on an R7 camera.

SOOC, IBIS and AF is what most shoot for most "low budget" (or not that low!) projects and even in their movies and I have seen TV shows even use some of that (specifically,  AF on new Sony/Canon "cine" cameras).

I am of that generation Y that uses always full manual everything and considers"amateurish" any Auto mode on any camera (except maybe the Auto ISO!), but I am willing to explore more of the other side now.

I feel like a combo of an R8 and R7, especially for those that already own a good deal of AF EF lenses, is a very cheap and good way to cover a huge amount of the most basic and lower, but huge, market base of the industry, and still have some abilities for more moderately upper jobs if you know your tools well.

That is my impression of the now, at least..

I am joking ofcourse, obviously we are on a camera forum, what else should we talk about?! I have definitely hundreds of such posts here!

But

1) R7 is this kind of camera that feels that shoots above its specs and is just plain enjoyable to use. Some cameras do that. It is no perfect by any means, but it can be a cheap workhorse camera for dozen of basic stuff we most do.

2) even now, and even for specific pro work, I am just amazed how good a camera of 2015 (NX1) can be and what incredible image can be  achieved just SOOC!

3) a month ago I was on a TV shot that the main camera was an Arri and the second - doing most of the static product shots - was an BMP6K! The very good (and successful) local DP was like "it will be perfectly fine"

4) I feel like I am reading/watching/talking about equipment more than I should! But that can be just me, and only after (almost) 30 years reading/watching/talking about equipment. In the TV doc I am working these days we mostly do that with the DP and the camera op that are very technical also. I am sure we will do the same today also!

guys, just grab an R7 and go outside and shoot already!

https://smallhd.com/products/action-5

One less pointless trip to the stratosphere (barely space!) would run DPR for 4 or 5 lives!

The forum there had a very strong NX presence, I hope we can attract here most of that traffic, even thought there are too many hobbyists and newbies, which I am not sure if they are the right target group for eoshd, still, it is a possibility..

9 minutes ago, Django said:

SAR adds on his YT channel: "a very plasticky feeling, not at all high-end FX3 feeling". 

This is just the start, there will be more crippling, I guarantee you.

"Price slightly below $2,500"

🤔

Focus with a sun hood?!

I believe all the bright ones have funs because of the heat..