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paulinventome

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  1. Like
    paulinventome reacted to Lars Steenhoff in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    You also cannot use the zoom while recording, I would love to have this, sigma learn from sony and fuji
  2. Like
    paulinventome reacted to Brian Williams in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I don't have mine with me at the moment to check this, but I'm pretty sure you can't, you have to set the focus point first, then zoom in, and once there you can't change the position until you zoom back out and move the focus point. I'll confirm this tonight.
    Which sucks, yes.
  3. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Lars Steenhoff in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    A bit more info for those interested.
    Firstly, as expected, setting white balance in camera does not affect the RAW file. There have been cameras that have baked white balance before, the Sony FS700 for one used to do that (or the FS7, one of them did). But that does not happen here.
    Secondly i'm enclosing the image of the linearisation curve in 8 bit. It's a good curve, it's not log but redistributes the values in a way that makes sense.
    Thirdly. Anyone worked out WTF is going on with focus magnification? So in cine mode, i can assign the AEL button to zoom. But how do i move around the screen to focus on different areas. I would have thought the control ring would (like on any other camera). It is possible - you can do it through elevntybillion key presses. Also pressing the touch screen would make sense but that just puts the auto focus points up... I must be missing something here!
    cheers
    Paul
     

  4. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from JJHLH in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I succumbed and bought one. 
    I will test more fully over the next week. Ergonomically from a stills view it's very much a urgh. No EVF makes life very difficult for me but i do have the VF on order so maybe that will change things.
    Cine mode. DNG. It's heaven. This is all you need from a camera. I've side by sided UHD 8bit onto SDXC vs A7sII UHD Slog2/Sgamut and there's no joke. It's almost comical. The low end and the highlights are literally playing in different ballparks. What crushes the A7sII footage is the compression. Simple as that. So that 8 bit UHD is remarkably good. I'm pushing and pulling it and comparing to the same thing shot  FHD in 12 bit and it's incredibly robust - so much more than it should be.
    Over the next week i'll push and pull properly. I got it as I needed a lightweight B cam to my Red for a shoot - so i need to intercut and i'll be finding it's comfort zones side by side with everything.
    So far the best resolve post in in ACES. My fear with going into any 709 space is that the camera native spectral response will be outside of 709. All Sony sensors push red way out and it's easy to see with bright red subjects. If you don't debayer into a larger colourspace then those reds get clipped or mushed into gamut. I don't know enough about DNG support in Resolve but visually into ACES appears much better. The only other valid option i think is Linear in, certainly none of the BMD Presets as they're for very different sensors.
     
    Cheers
    Paul
  5. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Brian Williams in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Nice find Lars.
    Log profile is utterly irrelevant on this camera and it won't expand the dynamic range. You have the RAW output - you will never get better than that. This is the whole point of this camera...
    RAW via HDMI is a nice idea.
    cheers
    Paul
  6. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Lars Steenhoff in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Yes, drop them a line and ask. That's what i mean. Doesn't have to be log, the values they choose can match the data better - it could be a log with an s curve to distribute mid tones better. We will never see that curve, we will only ever see the results after the curve.
    Whilst the DAC is 14 bit i am pretty sure that the mode they are running the sensor in is 12 bit output for motion. And a 10 bit DNG with a linearisation table would hold everything a 12 bit linear file could - i see no reason for a 12 bit option at all.
    I think 4096 across should be an option though, even if it's scope (4096 x 1716) or 2:1 (netflix style 4096 x 2048) - the overall data rate would be roughly the same as UHD.
     
    I think a couple of wish list items. Yes, a user LUT to output baked formats would be useful in some cases.
    But tools to expose for RAW better - i'm still trying to wrap my head around the zebra at 100% and what that actually means.
    cheers
    Paul
  7. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Llaasseerr in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I succumbed and bought one. 
    I will test more fully over the next week. Ergonomically from a stills view it's very much a urgh. No EVF makes life very difficult for me but i do have the VF on order so maybe that will change things.
    Cine mode. DNG. It's heaven. This is all you need from a camera. I've side by sided UHD 8bit onto SDXC vs A7sII UHD Slog2/Sgamut and there's no joke. It's almost comical. The low end and the highlights are literally playing in different ballparks. What crushes the A7sII footage is the compression. Simple as that. So that 8 bit UHD is remarkably good. I'm pushing and pulling it and comparing to the same thing shot  FHD in 12 bit and it's incredibly robust - so much more than it should be.
    Over the next week i'll push and pull properly. I got it as I needed a lightweight B cam to my Red for a shoot - so i need to intercut and i'll be finding it's comfort zones side by side with everything.
    So far the best resolve post in in ACES. My fear with going into any 709 space is that the camera native spectral response will be outside of 709. All Sony sensors push red way out and it's easy to see with bright red subjects. If you don't debayer into a larger colourspace then those reds get clipped or mushed into gamut. I don't know enough about DNG support in Resolve but visually into ACES appears much better. The only other valid option i think is Linear in, certainly none of the BMD Presets as they're for very different sensors.
     
    Cheers
    Paul
  8. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Lars Steenhoff in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I've been pushing and pulling the 8 bit DNGs in lightroom, comparing to 12 bit FHD and also Sony A7sII stills.
    Whilst i can see the limits in the shadows, as there are no compression artefacts, then what you get is remarkably usable. Pushing something 5 stops over to compare shows the 8 bit DNGs really not that far from the Sony RAW and 12 bit versions. So i'm running to a 128GB SD Card (ProGrades) and have yet to really break the image.
    This is less to do with the sensor and more to do with no compression. That's the key, compression kills everything.
    So i don't know what you're planning on shooting at the moment i'm skewing towards 8 bit.
    10 bit linear is no use whatsoever. 12 bit 24p would make a difference but i can't use 24p
    As i mentioned above, if we users can drop sigma a line and show how much we want 10 bit DNG with a linearisation table then that would be the sweet spot and i would externally record. If we're lucky they could experiment with writing 10 bit to SD card as well... And maybe do some other frame sizes... (4096 DCI widescreen!)
    cheers
    Paul
  9. Like
    paulinventome reacted to Lars Steenhoff in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I think you will find that the VF attachment will make a big difference.
     
  10. Like
    paulinventome reacted to mechanicalEYE in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    It does help a great deal in my opinion. 
  11. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from tomastancredi in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I succumbed and bought one. 
    I will test more fully over the next week. Ergonomically from a stills view it's very much a urgh. No EVF makes life very difficult for me but i do have the VF on order so maybe that will change things.
    Cine mode. DNG. It's heaven. This is all you need from a camera. I've side by sided UHD 8bit onto SDXC vs A7sII UHD Slog2/Sgamut and there's no joke. It's almost comical. The low end and the highlights are literally playing in different ballparks. What crushes the A7sII footage is the compression. Simple as that. So that 8 bit UHD is remarkably good. I'm pushing and pulling it and comparing to the same thing shot  FHD in 12 bit and it's incredibly robust - so much more than it should be.
    Over the next week i'll push and pull properly. I got it as I needed a lightweight B cam to my Red for a shoot - so i need to intercut and i'll be finding it's comfort zones side by side with everything.
    So far the best resolve post in in ACES. My fear with going into any 709 space is that the camera native spectral response will be outside of 709. All Sony sensors push red way out and it's easy to see with bright red subjects. If you don't debayer into a larger colourspace then those reds get clipped or mushed into gamut. I don't know enough about DNG support in Resolve but visually into ACES appears much better. The only other valid option i think is Linear in, certainly none of the BMD Presets as they're for very different sensors.
     
    Cheers
    Paul
  12. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Brian Williams in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I succumbed and bought one. 
    I will test more fully over the next week. Ergonomically from a stills view it's very much a urgh. No EVF makes life very difficult for me but i do have the VF on order so maybe that will change things.
    Cine mode. DNG. It's heaven. This is all you need from a camera. I've side by sided UHD 8bit onto SDXC vs A7sII UHD Slog2/Sgamut and there's no joke. It's almost comical. The low end and the highlights are literally playing in different ballparks. What crushes the A7sII footage is the compression. Simple as that. So that 8 bit UHD is remarkably good. I'm pushing and pulling it and comparing to the same thing shot  FHD in 12 bit and it's incredibly robust - so much more than it should be.
    Over the next week i'll push and pull properly. I got it as I needed a lightweight B cam to my Red for a shoot - so i need to intercut and i'll be finding it's comfort zones side by side with everything.
    So far the best resolve post in in ACES. My fear with going into any 709 space is that the camera native spectral response will be outside of 709. All Sony sensors push red way out and it's easy to see with bright red subjects. If you don't debayer into a larger colourspace then those reds get clipped or mushed into gamut. I don't know enough about DNG support in Resolve but visually into ACES appears much better. The only other valid option i think is Linear in, certainly none of the BMD Presets as they're for very different sensors.
     
    Cheers
    Paul
  13. Like
    paulinventome reacted to BTM_Pix in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Sigma don't publish figures so its all a bit subjective but as way of a quick crude illustration, its a pretty bright day here today so here is the DP0 alongside a Panasonic GX80 which is roughly representative of a lot of average LCDs.

    The DP0 is significantly brighter (which it needs to be as unlike the GX80 it doesn't articulate at all) and whilst I prefer using it with the loupe, I've got no issues with the brightness using it in these sort of conditions.
    You'll have to get someone to do something similar on an actual FP for a more definitive illustration but bear in mind that the LCD on the FP is two generations on from the DP0 (2.1million dots versus 900K dots) so I would expect a brightness bump to have accompanied the resolution increase.
  14. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Lars Steenhoff in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Thanks so much, others have dived into this earlier and i'm still looking.
    @rawdigger The 8 bit file is not linear, each DNG has a linearisation table which is the correct thing to do. I wanted to find out whether the 10 bit did the same and it seems that it might not. This means ironically that the 8 bit files in day to day use are probably going to to better quality (make better use of a limited format) than the 10 bit. As we know in linear the very last stop of light uses half the available values and the first 3 stops are represented by just 7 different values...
    If there is one thing we should do - it is to petition sigma to encode the 10 bit files with a table like the 8. That way we can achieve the same sort of quality as the 12bit files.
    Of course this is assuming they are not reading the sensor at this point in 10 bit mode which is one of the sensor modes possible.
    IMHO this is a show stopper for me getting one as a B cam. 12 bit is only 24p and i need 25 at least.
    I am waiting for clarification from sigma themselves but if others can chime in then maybe we can get them to consider doing this, i can't imagine it is *that* much work.
    As for downsampling i am guessing they are scaling the RGGB layers before bayering it. I think by doing this they are making up for a lack of OLPF which is why the detail is lower.
    I am so close to getting one as it's really what i am looking for, a sensor in a box that gives me pretty much what it sees. But there are a few caveats to sort through!
    cheers
    Paul
  15. Thanks
    paulinventome reacted to Brian Williams in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Ok here are two shots, both CINE mode, one uncropped, one APS-C cropped.
    aps_crop_A001_005_20191106_000012.DNG non_crop_A001_006_20191106_000001.DNG
    OK, here you go, 8bit , 10bit, 12bit all from CINE mode and a 14bit still- sorry it wasn't on a tripod so the camera moved slightly
    still-SDIM0189.DNG 12bit-A001_007_20191106_000006.DNG 10bit-A001_006_20191106_000005.DNG 8bit-A001_005_20191106_000004.DNG
     
    We really need that firmware update for shooting to SSD- I exchanged my 500GB T5 for the 1GB version in hopes it might fix the issue, but no, a handful of CDNG clips are still coming in with frames misplaced in the sequence, and I don't have the patience anymore to go through them and try to correct the order.
  16. Like
    paulinventome reacted to cpc in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    12-bit is linear. 10-bit is linear. 8-bit is non-linear. No idea why Sigma didn't do 10-bit non linear, seeing as they already do it for 8-bit.
    Here is how 10-bit non linear can look (made from your 12-bit linear sample with slimraw). In particular, note how darks are indistinguishable from the 12-bit original.
    10-bit non linear (made from the 12-bit).DNG
  17. Like
    paulinventome reacted to cpc in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    The linearisation table is used by the raw processing software to invert the non-linear pixel values back to linear space. This is why you can have any non-linear curve applied to the raw values (with the purpose of sticking higher dynamic range into limited coding space), and your raw processor still won't get confused and will show the image properly. The actual raw processing happens after this linearisation.
  18. Like
    paulinventome reacted to CaptainHook in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    I would offer that for matching shots (the majority of most grading work), adjusting white balance in sensor space (or even XYZ as a fallback) and exposure in linear makes a huge difference to how well shots match and flow. I see many other colourists claim they can do just as good white balancing with the normal primaries controls, but i think if they actually spent considerable time with both approaches instead of just one they would develop a sensitivity to it that would make them rethink just how 'good' the results with primaries are. Its one area i think photographers experienced with dialing in white balance in RAW files develop that sensitivity and eye to how it looks when white balance is transformed more accurately - more so than those in the motion image world who still aren't used to it.

    I've been a fan of Ian Vertovec from Light Iron for quite a few years, and I was not surprised to learn recently that he likes to do basic adjustments in linear because there was something in his work that stood out to me (including his eye/talent/skill/experience of course).
  19. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from deezid in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    To be expected, but have you had a chance to compare 10 bit, with a decent curve that could be as good as 12 and has more frame rate options
    Those new videos above show some horrific highlight clipping - i wonder what the workflow was with them...
    cheers
    Paul
  20. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from deezid in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    If you're digging then look at these aspects:
    - Highlight reconstruction, if you're in Resolve or similar then from a native sensor colourspace it is easier to recreate missing channels at clipping. If your are in a white balance baked format then the clipping has already happened. It's quite common for sensitivity of RGB on the sensor to be quite different to each other. In a baked format these have been white balanced and so some of the channels would have been clipped to do that. There is no headroom in YUV. In some situations there is up to a stop of detail to be recovered. Helps especially with skies, clouds and avoiding that horrible too cyan look.
    - White balancing again, creatively or otherwise it's a massive boon to balance in the grade. White balance both YUV and RAW and tweak the settings a little bit and see that you'd get smoother results from RAW
    - Different debayering approaches for different uses.
    - Retention of noise and the ability to reduce that without dealing with compression, especially in the dark areas.
    Now the one thing is that sigma are dumping out DNGs with all the matrixes embedded within which is great, but actually they could offer more in terms of specific transforms, like Black Magic do. As mentioned above, sensor response is not defined as well as a colourspace, the edges of the gamut can be all over the shop and when dealing with outlying colours the method to bring them into gamut can be challenging. It took Red quite a few years to get to IPP2 which provides some excellent gamut mapping - specifically designed for each one of their sensors. It could be that sigma are doing some colour work from sensor before dumping into RAW - these issues are usually seen mostly in flouro and LED lights - car brake lights and so on. Typically these are outside of 709 space and so mapping those are very important. 
    It's too early to tell with the sigma DNGs how this will pan out - we've only seen a couple...
    cheers
    Paul
     
  21. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from KnightsFan in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    That is the very point of bayer sensors, no? I don't know whether you're a developer or have had a chance to experiment with different debayer techniques but that is precisely what is happening for the 2 pixels for every pixel that are not recorded. The reconstruction algorithms are really clever, taking into account edges and gradients.
    A simplistic example:
    Red for pixel A is code value 11 and pixel B is missing and C has 14. The debayer can look at the surrounding red pixels and also the colour for the pixel it does have and determine that using a gradient the missing pixel is 12.5. Now you have code values that are not 8 bit anymore.
    In addition, these source values are not in a colourspace that we see, they have to go through a matrixing process which also includes white balancing AND highlight reconstruction. These are other steps that fill in more detail.
    You cannot do decent highlight reconstruction from a baked 709 YUV image, believe me, i've had to try. You need pre white balancing raw data to do that properly.
    You could argue that you're scientifically right but we have been using reconstructed images for decades and YUV is also a reconstruction of the original scene too.
    I assumed you were talking 12bpp and i see where you're coming from. But from another perspective the U and V is described using an 8 bit range, even though they are packed differently.
    At the end of the day the proof are in the images. That 8 bit RAW from sigma is much better than it has any right to be and i spend lots of my days deep in pixels - from Red to Arri and the other end of the spectrum as well. I hate YUV with a passion because it's caused me so many post headaches. I love RAW for its simplicity and flexibility - there are techniques for working on the bayered data before reconstruction or the ability to white balance after the effect in grading means that you can use white balance as a secondary and protect skin whilst changing colours around - it can be way more effective than pulling a key in a restricted colourspace.
    What i really hope is that sigma have done the same thing with the 10 bit files, and not made them linear - if that's the case then we're golden.
    I assume this is the IMX 410? So it may be doing 6K full frame internally. If you switch to crop mode i wonder if it changes the sensor to 4K crop too - in which case you can pull more depth off the sensor in that mode?
    cheers
    Paul
  22. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from deezid in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Yes, i delved a little deeper and the 8bit DNGs have a linearisation table attached to them.  I've been opening these up in RAW Digger which gets me the values before any debayering of colour work. I need to see if i can get the table out but it's a good sign.
    Having said that by the time the image is debayered into a working colourspace that 8 bit source of thee RGGB channels is tonally more spread meaning that effectively the end result will have more tonality than 8 bit implies, say compared to an 8 bit movie. I hope that makes sense?
    Paul
     
     
  23. Thanks
    paulinventome got a reaction from PannySVHS in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Yes, i delved a little deeper and the 8bit DNGs have a linearisation table attached to them.  I've been opening these up in RAW Digger which gets me the values before any debayering of colour work. I need to see if i can get the table out but it's a good sign.
    Having said that by the time the image is debayered into a working colourspace that 8 bit source of thee RGGB channels is tonally more spread meaning that effectively the end result will have more tonality than 8 bit implies, say compared to an 8 bit movie. I hope that makes sense?
    Paul
     
     
  24. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Lars Steenhoff in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    Yes, i delved a little deeper and the 8bit DNGs have a linearisation table attached to them.  I've been opening these up in RAW Digger which gets me the values before any debayering of colour work. I need to see if i can get the table out but it's a good sign.
    Having said that by the time the image is debayered into a working colourspace that 8 bit source of thee RGGB channels is tonally more spread meaning that effectively the end result will have more tonality than 8 bit implies, say compared to an 8 bit movie. I hope that makes sense?
    Paul
     
     
  25. Like
    paulinventome got a reaction from Brian Williams in Sigma Fp review and interview / Cinema DNG RAW   
    You can't really downsample RAW, the reconstruction method don't work as well as you'd get aliasing in your downsampled channels and loose the ability to interpolate the missing pixels surely? 
    6K -> 4K Binning, not sure how that would work without introducing issues. Keep all the greens and dump some other colours? Seems like a lot of work when that processing work could be better spent dumping the data out. During the design they knew the sensor size so why not ensure the rest of the camera can handle the datarates, even if it was a little bigger? Sigma have no video camera line to eat into, they're perfectly positioned to disrupt.
    I can't believe that a few weeks away from supposed delivery the most basic question of whether all the movie modes are crop isn't answered!
    cheers
    Paul
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