redimp

@HockeyFan12 what's the password to the video?

I've said this multiple times on facebook and will repeat here once more – there is no concept of focus through. There's no simple way to explain why, but bottom line is – if you have squeeze on one axis, you have astigmatism, and it needs correction. "Focusing" anamorphic block is simply correcting astigmatism for that specific focus plane. Original gottshalk's patent shows the ultra panatar prismatic design in the schematics, if prismatic lenses were 'focus through' that patent would make no sense and we won't have 60 years of cinema history created by this patent. Or think about it this way – if there was such thing as 'focus-though' would any cine lens manufacturer in their right mind fiddle with any other design?

@HockeyFan12 Hey Matt, Proxiscope does not add vignetting compared to the original housing (I design products in a way the front lip is nowhere near the angle of view of the lens itself). I suggest a simple test – put on the old housing (good thing the rehousing is reversible and takes 5 minutes), and shoot a scene from at tripod, then put the new housing on and repeat it. That should help you life your doubts. 

Front element has to travel 6mm to get from inf to 2m. Of course to travel from 2m to 1.1 the front lens has to move more, in our case it's another 6mm. That would obviously increase vignetting and there is no work around that, but still, the front lip is so short that it's not the cause of vignetting even at 1.1m. 

My newest design Nexiscope has three times more trave, and even if the lip is 6mm deep and 72mm in diameter it's not going to vignette.

Cheers.

On 11/21/2019 at 10:53 PM, HockeyFan12 said:

I'm trying to install one of these (really really clever mod and great craftsmanship) but focus is VERY stiff between 3 feet and 6 feet.

Is there an easy fix? Sanding down the paint/anodizing on the focus ring just a bit? It's smooth elsewhere. Thanks. 

I think this might be an issue with the particular Iscorama I'm attempting to install this on, as it may have sustained damage in the past... but it's not the helical within the Iscorama. Whether the screws under the name plate are installed or not, focus is VERY stiff between 3 feet and 6 feet.

Thanks!

Please don't sand it, it's a hack, not a fix.

The tolerances on the housing are very tight, If your iscorama is warped, the plastic body is not ideally concentric around the lens helical (which is brass to brass, so no warping there for sure). What you need to do is to adjust the smaller metal ring and the way it sits around the plastic body using three small grub screws, until it's perfectly concentric. Try tightening them quarter turn at a time. It's a game of balance, and time spent doing this depends on how bad the warping of the plastic is. Just play with those screws, spend 10, 15, 30 minutes if needed, quarter turn at a time. Loosen one screw and tighten two others to move the small metal ring in the opposite direction of where the traction happens.

Alternatively you can take a caliper, measure the body in the pace where traction occurs, and compare that diameter measurement to the perpendicular diameter of the oval of the body. If the difference is drastic, like 0.5mm or more, you can try to squeeze the plastic in the direction of bigger diameter, to alter the shape a bit. If iscorama was stored on the side it could be warped that way.

It sounds a bit barbaric to squeeze the plastic, but it's the issue some of my customers had and it help them. Just be gentle. One person measured the tolerance of their rama and the difference in diameters was 1.2mm which is crazy – that polymer really does not age well, plus if the lens was laying in a box on it's side for 50 years it shows too. Also Germans chose a material that simply cannot have good tolerances even in theory – I have several iscoramas, some have nameplates that are exactly 72mm, but some have it at 72.8, and some at 71.2  – this is crazy, and some of them don't even screw into standard metal filters, simply because they're too big.

Maxiscope was my attempt to fix this issue for good, as it's a full metal body that replaces plastic, so you don't have to rely on tolerances and issues of the plastic body anymore. 

Hope this helps.

To everyone who's still watching this thread – here's my progress:

I've bought a Fladners and blackmagic I/O and graded the shot above myself, using Hunger Games stills as references. Here's the last version, and I'd love to know what you guys think.

On March 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM, IronFilm said:

I'd be buying an OSEE (or FSI if I could swing it)

Thanks, you're always a great help! I have just bought a used FSI I found for a decent price.

On 3/27/2018 at 3:02 PM, sam said:

I think someone may have been confused about the addition of slog to the F3, which was not available in the F3 at its release. It was a paid option that came later.

 

sgamut is not the only available in camera gamut.  the noticeable differences between the gamuts can be subtle.  add a cheap monitoring setup to the equation and...... maybe the OP could hire a colorist? 

Do you know where I can set the gamut in camera on my F3? 

I could hire a colorist, because I don’t know how things work, or I cold try and understand how things work, and then make a sober decision. 

Not to say I didn’t reach ot to colorists. I did. Wanted to hire someone, but one of the candidates pointed out that my grade can actually look good, but on my screen exclusively. So he said that even if I hire him and he grades to taste, on my monitor and in my environment it will still look off, or different or even worse then what I currently have. So I’ve invested ina good monitor and decent calibration for now and am trying to understand the cam and it’s footage better.

Hey guys! I am looking for a 1920x1080 or 1920x1200 panel and I have $1000 max. I'm OK buying a used monitor.

I will connect it to Ultra Studio Mini Monitor. The footage I'm working with is actually not HD (1440p or 4k), but as far as I know Ultra Studio Mini Monitor can only output HD.

I do have another display to check sharpness, etc (5k iMac), so I'm fine if the footage is interpolated, so maybe it's ok to get say a 1440p monitor and output HD to it from Davinci?

 I work in Resolve Studio and my main delivery is youtube. I have i1 probe and would use CalMan software to calibrate the monitor. I will use it in sRGB or REC709. 

Great bonus would be if the monitor can store the 3D LUT.

I need to buy a monitor ASAP for a pending project, but am afraid I am going to do a stupid thing and in a hurry will buy an outdated tech or just a bad panel in general.

So I think I'm looking at 8bit or 8bit+frc panels that can store 3D luts. There's SONY 2110W that someone recommended that is $700 but it's a TFT panel and I found threads dating back to 2012 talking about this monitor, so it feels like a pretty outdated tech. 

Maybe there's something solid someone can recommend?

 

On 3/21/2018 at 10:54 PM, Geoff CB said:

It's definitely S-gamut.

Thank you Geoff!

Someone in one of these topics mentioned that S-gamut was not around when F3 launched, and that it's Rec709. I have no slightest idea how to confirm this.

First of all I want to thank everyone for their help, you guys are amazing.

 

15 hours ago, BenEricson said:

What lenses are you using? They look beautiful.

Lomos OKS cine primes from 1970s with Iscorama 36 with Proxiscope rehousing (my own product, there should be a thread somewhere on this forum about it).

 

12 hours ago, sam said:

ead over to clip attributes and change from "auto" to "full"

YES! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Doing this de-logged the footage nicely, and the gamma looks like proper S-log now.

Now I only need to figure out what color space it's in. As it was pointed out earlier in this thread, s-gamut was not around when the F3 was released. Googling "Sony F3 color gamut" did not result in anything.
 

Does anyone have an idea what it might be? Rec709?

And to top it off, here's a snapshot of my current grading. https://www.dropbox.com/s/qcr93l0wq2o49o4/Screenshot 2018-03-15 17.35.52.png?dl=0

If anyone has any suggestions I'd really appreciate them. I was going for a moody feel here. Someone told me it's way to blue and I'm not sure now.

15 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Can you post some frames? In my experience F3 is up there with the C300ii and the Red. I found it much easier to work with than FS7 or FS700.

The whole project is three locations, I've included one snippet of each in this folder https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hea92wpkq082gcp/AACjhU7POHwjvMgFmKSaifZRa?dl=0

Summoning the gurus back to this thread. @CineAlta @BenEricson @IronFilm @Dogtown

I have shot my first project on the F3 and BMVA combo. It has it's quirks, but I liked it, especially for the money.

I've shot the whole thing in S-log, and recorded to BMVA in Prores. Out of camera footage looks lovely, but when I try to grade it, I'm struggling more then I was with the footage from blackmagic cams I've owned.

I've talked to a colorist and they suggested I do a color space transform to translate Slog into Cineon or LogC and grade that using some film print emulation.

This is where I've stumbled upon problems. When I try to do color space transform, the footage appears to be NOT Slog, but Gamma 2.4. Colors appear to be not S Gamut, but Rec709.

So my question is – does the use of BMVA affect the output of F3? Is the footage being interpreted from Slog into Gamma 2.4 and "baked-in" the ProRes files?

What am I missing?

Some sexy pictures from Proxiscope user.

14 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Just an FYI, the color you get from setting the camera to video out / s-log PP is much more accurate colorwise than locking the camera to S-Log out with no profile.

This is interesting, will have to test myself though to see whether I prefer the S-log mode or S-log PP, but I REALLY appreciate the tip, thanks!

11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I don't bother really with 60fps, but I think hitting the S&Q button will help speed that up for you?

No, it only outputs 60i that way.

On November 23, 2017 at 4:02 AM, CineAlta said:

The video assist won't accept 4;4;4

That's right, I fell victim to wishful thinking and choice fatigue

I've read somewhere on reduser that BMVA accepts 60p via 3g sdi, instead of two 1.5G, and automatically assumed it's going to be the same with 444. You're correct, the video does have a green tint to it, so it's going to be 422 for me. I made my peace with it

Regarding that shutter switch on the body – I am struggling to understand why would they do that. All the menus are also made to make you suffer.

Quick question – if shooting 24p and then switching to 60 – I have to go to menu-others-system and set the output to 59.98i and then set the Dual link and Gamma to 3G 422. And to go back to 24p I have to go to same menus and switch both settings back. Is there a way to just save these presets somehow? It's such a tedious process it makes me wanna cry.

I've recently bought BMVA and F3 and they arrived today. I'm trying to set them up to work via single 3G SDI port (SDI A on the camera body). I've managed to get 60p in 422, but can't manage to get 24p 444.

I went into System menu and changed the setting from 59.94i to 23.98p.

Then, in Video Set, changed output to 23.98PsF.

In Dual-link ang Gamma, if I'm setting output to 1.5 YpBpr 422 I get the image, but as soon as I go to 1.5G RGB444 or any 3G setting – I get no image at all.

Can anyone suggest what setting to use to get the 444 24p out of this setup?

Also, there simply might be finger grease on your glass.

16 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Given your needs (S35 & PL on a budget) then I'd say the top suggestions would be: 

I really appreciate your time throwing this list together. I went though it and just got re-assured that the two options that I have are F3 and C300. I really like the image out of both cams, and don't like image of sony alpha series cams or the fs700. 

The set of PL glass I've got is the lomo OKS, 35, 50 and 75., I plan to use them with iscorama 36. Shot some tests of fs7, here's a sample vid 

And here's what the setup looks like: https://www.dropbox.com/s/c4rx3vlz1grrwga/Photo Oct 24%2C 16 57 05.jpg?dl=0

Also on Ursa Mini: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9jhfdwqhvg1px4g/Photo Oct 24%2C 13 15 31.jpg?dl=0

You can sort of see how it all adds up and the length of the lens is getting sort of huge. With the lomo 35 it's much shorter tho, as the lens itself is recessed into the mount and only a hood sticks out of the PL mount itself, so I guess that when it goes to gimbal use this would be the only reasonable lens to shoot with (it's also suitable focal distance as well).

If the C300 had anamorphic preview desqueeze I would probably go with it, just for the sake of keeping it all small and portable, but I will have to use external monitor for it anyways, and it seems like F3 with 7'' BMVA is the option for me. I've tried shooting without the de-squeeze and it's a nightmare.

Thanks for helping me to figure it out, messaged the seller of F3 for payment details.

Just so I know what to expect in terms of data – how much of 24p Prores422 can you record on your 64 gig card with your F3 and BMVA?

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

So now you're making a point against the Alexa Mini?! Thought you were using sensor size to argue for it. This is making less and less sense.

I think I have not expressed myself right, let me try to explain so maybe it will make a bit more sense.

We're in pre-production for a small project, a music video.

First, we did a test for the glass I own, on FS7 and Ursa mini pro, and we loved the results. I was going to get Ursa mini pro for myself, but after all the talks in all the countless topics I've created, a lot of people (you included) were persuading me to simply rent a higher end cam, and that makes a lot of sense after I thought about it A LOT, since I won't be making any money with the camera and it will be sitting on a shelf quite frequently. People here helped me a lot to filter the wishful thinking and get realistic.

So we have a rental we know people from, and can get an Alexa mini for a reasonable-ish price. 

But, I also need to get a cam for personal use to be able to test the glass, for example I'm rehousing iscoramas, need a camera body to simply check focus at times, etc. Also the glass I own has to be better adapted, and I need to have a body to simply test it on. 

I also wanted to see if what we have in storyboards is realistic to shoot, for example we have this shot in our storyboard https://www.dropbox.com/s/iu4esex4sgpc81z/Screenshot 2017-11-03 16.11.06.png?dl=0 but I have literally no idea whether 35mm glass + iscorama will give us enough FOV to shoot this from inside the car from passenger's seat, or if we'll have to use a car rig to do it from the outside. If it's latter we're probably going to simply replace a shot with a back seat shot or something else.

Here's where the whole sensor size comes in play. 35mm on a 1.5x sensor is as far as I can go. With one 35mm lens we tested it vignetted quite some, with the other it almost did not. If all of a sudden the sensor gets bigger, even a tad bigger, the vignetting will be more prominent. So that's why I'm mentioning it here at all. 

Also I wanted to shoot test shots as we rehearse with the actors, again, to test what camera will see in the interiors we chose, etc. We have a couple shots planned on a gimbal, so I wanted to try and get a gimbal and throw whatever cam I get on it and test those shots as well. Then throw it all in davinci and do a test grade/test cut of the whole thing to the music, and see how that works out, so when we shoot with a rented cam we don't waste time if something does now work out.

Sorry for the confusion, I hope this all makes more sense now.

Answering your question about the price, yes, the 5'' BMVA and F3 are $1500, no accessories, just a battery. It's in US, while i'm in Ukraine, so I'll have to add 35% as import tax to that, but considering local camera market has NO f3s or NO c300s – international shipping is my only option. 

I have almost paid for it this morning, but somebody on facebook (yes, I spam in a couple groups there too) mentioned that I won't be able to de-squeeze anamorphic footage (for preview) with the 5'' BMVA, only with the 7'' 4k version, and again, it's more expensive, and I'm again on a fence. I have a cheap HDMI field monitor that does de-squeeze, but rigging F3 with a monitor AND a recorder would be stupid I guess. So again, I'm thinking if maybe I should get a c300 and just take the native monitor off and use the one I have for de-squeezing.

13 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

C300 would be so much easier, plus there's auto focus... F3 is kinda long. What is the price on the F3 + VA?

Yeah, the length of it is what scares me. The offer I've got is $1500.

I have found a decent offer for a F3 and a BMVA, and am ready to pull the trigger on it, but prior to that one last question – how realistic is it to put in on a gimbal with LWS attached to it? My anamorphic lens train is only 10-14 cm long but needs rail support at all times. I assume in terms of mounting it to a gimbal C300 is no comparison to f3, but is it possible at all to even do this with F3?

1 hour ago, BenEricson said:

I some b-roll here. The first 15 and last 15 seconds have some examples. 

Damn, that looks nice!

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, the BMD VA can do 1080 ProRes HQ 60fps. It is right there on the spec sheet.

I know it's listed in BMVA specs, but I've read that F3 can only output 60p via dual link SDI, while BMVA only has one SDI input. I found this thread at reduser http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?143260-Sony-PMW-F3L-w-RGB-444-Blackmagic-Video-Assist-10-bit-422-60p-amp-Accessories where seller claim there is a "hidden feature" to record 60p footage to BMVA from F3 via single cable. It's also mentioned in comments on this page https://disqus.com/home/discussion/cinetechnica/sony_f3_signal_routing_101/

Did you test it personally? Does it work? Any footage to share?

Answering your other questions – yes I do own PL glass, and yes sensor size does matter, as 1.5x crop (with around 14mm height) is the max my glass can handle without vignetting, but we've already figured that mini can crop into it's sensor for 2k mode and provide exactly 14mm of sensor height, so that is not an issue anymore.

6 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Black Magic Video Assist works great if you have the 444 model, 7Q will do 24/60 with dual SDI and the 2016 7Q firmware.

I think on reduser I’ve read that BMVA can do 60 as well, thi I’m not sure how that’s possible.