markr041

8K 24P Test in Low Light with the Low-light Stabilization Setting used When I Move with the Camera

It appears that the low-light stabilization setting pushes up the shutter speed and ISO. You can see that in those clips (identified by whether or not I am moving with the camera) there is considerably more noise. The colors are retained and sharpness does not seem to be reduced, and the digital artifacts from low-light digital stabilization appear to be absent.

Audio is good.

53 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Maybe for steady shots?

Lovely colour rendering...

Yes, exactly. Steady shots are great, the resolution is there.

8K 24P in the rain:

Dark day, suggests 8K 24P when walking with the camera will not look very good at night without the special lowlight stabilization setting.

The key innovation of the insta360 Ace Pro is its low-light stabilization setting. This appears, from my test video, to have almost eliminated the artifacts of digital stabilization while moving the camera in low light. Of course, all the digital noise reduction and processing results in a mushier video (compared to the non-processed (no noise reduction, no digital stabilization) video from the Pocket 3). But the results, if not looked at too closely, are impressive - colors are good and the dynamic range in "Pure Video" is pretty good too.

My assessment about low light is that when the cameras are standing still, there is not that much difference - the difference is when the camera moves, given digital stabilization  - GoPro is hopeless, and the insta360 Ace Pro does its magic, but the quality is still worse than mechanical stabilization, as seen in my video. To see the degradation from camera movement from the digital processing, look at the sign writing in the first insta360 clip at the end - when the camera is moving the print on the sign is doing peculiar things, when the camera stops, they become much clearer and precise.  You do not se such a dramatic change at the end of the Pocket 3 version.

One can invoke the low-light stabilization setting while shooting 8K 24P, so it would be interesting to see how that combination does at night, perhaps minimizing the mush. The "Pure Video" setting seems to push up exposure, and I reduced luma in post to make the video more realistic to the scenes. But I am not sure how that setting contributes to low-light prowess.

58 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Loved both! ; ) You cannot reach the same performance on GoPro for sure... Even though, Pocket is obviously my fav, I think there's place for the other one no doubt... Horses for courses beyond the small size factor. What resolution you've used the Ace Pro on these shots? 8K?

It would be great to see 4K 120fps footage...

1. "insta360 Ace Pro set to Pure Video with low-light stabilization" = 4K 30p, fixed. That is the camera's best low-light setting. 

2. The slow motion parts of the 4K 60P daylight video were shot in 4K 120p. There are three consecutive clips. Since this was a 60P video, the slow motion is 1/2 speed.

insta360 Ace Pro versus DJI Pocket 3 at Night

insta360 first then the Pocket 3 for each scene.

insta360 Ace Pro set to Pure Video with low-light stabilization, sharpening low. DJI Pocket with noise reduction at the lowest level (-2) and 10bit HLG profile.

Both auto white balance and auto exposure. No noise reduction in post.

Pocket 3 HLG transformed using color management to REC709.

First, comparing the in-camera (Flowstate) stabilization in 4K 60 with the 4:3 FreeFrame setting using Gyroflow stabilization in post:

Second, 8K 24.0P video, complete with that beloved 24 fps motion:

Third, a video shot in 4K 60P, complete with moving with the camera (forwards and backwards), the 2X zoom, 2X slow motion (from 4K 120P), and audio.

Maybe I will try a night video. I wish it was a sunny day.

Oh, and I am going to shoot with the insta360 ACE PRO too. Brandon Li really sold out, and tried hard to make a convincing video by hiding the faults.

Maybe I will be surprised positively. I will try to think of some use for it - it  is unlikely to beat the Pocket 3 for night video, which has a bigger sensor and no need to crop or use high shutter speeds for stabilization. But if it does, it would be great to have a tiny camera that does it all. I like tiny cameras - it is cute.

I do like the lossless zoom, and 8K is always intriguing, but at that horrible 24 fps requiring an ND if the sun is shining, which costs an extra $110! Not to mention the bother. Even the Canon 8bit REC709 V10 has built in ND's, and they can be automatic!

8bit REC709 is really limiting - have to get exposure just right, have to watch out for blow outs more, cannot do much in post to correct, have to stick with the canned colors, no control of noise reduction or sharpening (all of which are subject to control with GoPro's and the Pocket 3). This is really a big step backwards. Even the 8bit HLG on older Sony's was an improvement.

"Don't confuse the bit-depth with DR, they're independent variables." Do you seriously think that I do not know this? Do you understand how condescending and insulting that statement is? 

Do you also seriously think that I just defend GoPro no matter what?

Is that how you justify thinking you actually know what you are talking about when you talk about GoPro's or the many other other cameras you have not used - that pushback to what you say is based on prejudice? Attack the person exposing you?

Let me make it very clear - I have access to any camera, any. You might have noticed that I have posted videos from 10's of different cameras of all types. I mostly use the ones I think are best in their category at the time, and I care about size (so I am ignoring the medium-frame cameras for now) and ability to shoot handheld (so you won't see me packing an ARRI or a Venice, though I did work with the Sony FS cameras).

I thus do not defend based on name brand or "ownership", I only care about facts (this does NOT mean I do not make mistakes). You made some ignorant statements about the latest GoPro's, made some ridiculous statements about bit depth, and got caught, so you try to make the person who pushed back look like an idiot - both ignorant and prejudiced. You can dis on GoPro's or Nikons or Canons or Sonys or BlackMagic's or Z-cams or Panasonics or Sigma's (all of which I have used and posted videos from), but it better be based on facts (eg, forget shooting with stabilization in low light with a GoPro - yes; Panasonic AF sucks, until only recently - yes; Sony IBIS is actually weakest - yes; BMPCC and Sigma images are more pleasing for some reason than from other cameras - yes; the Hero 12 is not worth buying over the 11 - yes; the Nikon Z8 is bulky and its AF is difficult to use compared to other cameras - yes).

Do you actually think you have a sense of humor? 

What exactly is your question? I am happy to answer it.  Even if it is, as is likely, an insulting one.

And the new HLG 4K slow motion test: in HDR:

1 hour ago, kye said:

Not all.  The Canon XC10 included the whole sensor DR in its standard profile.  I really wish that other camera companies would adopt this practice, but unfortunately they don't.

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s17.pdf

Don't confuse the bit-depth with DR, they're independent variables.  You can take an ARRI Alexa image and make it 4-bit if you like, and that doesn't radically reduce the DR.

You're confusing a bunch of things.

I personally absolutely HATE the look of 60p.  I am so sensitive to this look now that 30p also looks pretty awful to me.  It looks far less like reality than 24p does, 60p/30p look like hyper-reality, like how reality would look if I was part robot living in the year 3000 after I'd taken my smart drugs for the day.  I don't know why they look like this, but they do.

If you analyse all the variables involved then you become aware that 24p and 60p are both significantly different to how reality looks to our eyes, they are just making different trade-offs, and neither one is more 'correct' than the other.  The errors of 24p are just less offensive than those of 60p to me, and many others too.

I can understand that watching sports in 60p is useful because there are quick motions of the ball etc, so it's great for making things obvious, but it doesn't look real.  Oddly, when playing video games, 60p / 120p / 240p don't have the same look to me as video.  Maybe it's to do with interacting vs passively watching, I'm not sure.  Maybe it's that games are artificial and so the artificial look of those frame rates doesn't clash with the aesthetic.

I understand that you like the look of 60p and you want to make things look like reality, but that's not what everyone wants.

Cool.

If we promise to never say a bad word against the mighty and perfect GoPro will you promise not to come and tell us off for blaspheming? 

Seriously though, the sooner you accept that not everyone wants what you want, shoots what you shoot, shoots how you shoot, the sooner you'll be able to discuss things rather than always argue with people.

I am not confusing anything. You are just choosing to believe that only you know it all, and others cannot possibly know as much as you on any topic. You have knowledge, cut the condescending... (which is not just to me). And post some of your work instead of lecturing. 

I cannot argue with what you hate.

And unlike you, I do not assume that what I like is what everyone else should like. I have pushed 60 fps because of the bias that WAS in this forum that somehow 24 fps is the correct way to shoot. I think now that has gone away, because the holiness of film has diminished here at last.

In fact, stop your personal lecturing . I get it, you are not used to pushback because you believe in your own head you know it all. Your prejudices are now revealed, as well as your attitude.

I argue against what you say when it is based on ignorance of cameras you have never used, which has been exposed often. Your experience with color grading does not carry over to camera capabilities that you read on the internet.

The latest firmware fixes the GLog, so no longer at -2 EV. There is also a new LUT. The old ones are gone. There was something wrong with the original Glog, fixed.

4K 60P Holiday Video at night (for all audiences):

Looks spectacular in HDR, when YouTube gets around to showing it. Looks good in SDR.

Nothing beats a gimbal for nighttime video with movement.

Here is another third-party video using this wannabe camera. What is useful here is unlike the influencer video from the gimbal guy in which each shot is about 1 second so you don't get a chance to inspect, this one has longer takes.

The daytime 4K looks pretty good, the nighttime static shots look soft. And when he moves with the camera, the nighttime video looks truly awful, just as expected - you cannot use digital stabilization in low light and move. This camera has not defied the laws of physics; it does not matter the size of the sensor, the problem is digital stabilization.

Anyway, here is the video:

Nighttime moving at 6.25.

3 hours ago, zlfan said:

 Seems that in order to improve the image quality, the only way to go is to shoot 10 bit log, bitr = 200, wide = 1, nr = 0, sharpness low, aiming the brightest at 2/3 of the histogram, etc? More suggestions? Thx.  

NR=0 is the default noise reduction. You want NR=1 for eliminating any noise reduction.

14 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

You know what? I don't care much for specs but what my eyes tell me and this is the best action cam today, no doubts on that one : ) Is it limited? Yes, still stands the same : ) I yet love 24 fps with movement, oh yeah! :- )

I can't argue with subjective opinions, to which you are certainly entitled!

Let's have a serious discussion of dynamic range and other issues.

We all agree that REC709 has very limited dynamic range on any camera, yes?

We all agree, that for the same sensor, a log gamma with 10bit color permits a higher dynamic range than REC709, yes?

This GoPro wannabe is limited to rec709 dynamic range, right?

And the GoPro Hero 12 has a log gamma and 10bit color that extends the dynamic range beyond REC709, right?

So, what do we conclude about the dynamic range difference between this ACE "PRO" and the Hero 12?

And do we dismiss the 10bit color and 8bit color difference also? 

There is no possibility of real HDR video, you know the ones supported by TV's and streaming services (like HDR10, not the "HDR mode"), with the "PRO". You can produce true HDR video with the Hero 12 (it has an extended color gamut and 10bit and log gamma).

Now, as to "action": I maintain, to which we all do NOT agree for some reason, that 24 fps is an inappropriate frame rate for any movement, including walking with the camera. So, 8K 24p is not useful for action, although in a pinch it is not terrible (As I showed with my cell phone video, with plenty of action if anyone actually viewed it, including drone flights). Any full body motion is action. 24p emulates film, and we all put up with the odd motion it displays as part of the separation from reality that film gives us (so I am not dissing 24p in general).

But 24p is not what we want for depicting sports. If you like 8K 24p, use your cell phone.

Btw, a colleague has a good use for 8K 24p: shooting classical concerts. He can zoom in post and he can take advantage of the lower shutter speeds for the low light, and there is very little movement (action). It's not action, but it is a good use, though it does not use the stabilization or waterproofness). I heartily endorsed his purchases of the "PRO."

Any comparisons of "image quality" based on posted videos is meaningless - all the non REC709 Hero 12 videos are color graded, so if you do not like the images, that is on the user.

Relatedly, no actual professional videographers I know shoot using only action cams. They mingle action cam shots with their normal camera clips. Thus, what is essential is the ability to match the action and regular shots. This requires a lot of manipulation in post, for which we all agree (I think) 10bit color and log gammas are useful. So, an "action" cam stuck in 8bit REC709 is not for my colleagues.

On 11/29/2023 at 3:38 AM, zlfan said:

how to turn off the noise reduction in gp12? i cannot find the option in the setup menu in pro mode. i turn the sharpness to low for the 10 bit log. also, the labs beta firmware has only high and standard bit rate options. i cannot find the 180 mbps option. thx. 

 

Everything in GoPro Labs firmware works by QR code. Go to the GoPro Labs web site and learn how it works. None of the new options are in a menu.

And, yes, there are settings for turning noise reduction off, for setting the bitrate at any value you want up to 200 Mbps, for customizing the gamma curve, for extending the color gamut and much more. All by QR codes yous et up. There is a QR app that makes it easy or a web site.

On 10/30/2023 at 8:40 AM, wolf33d said:

No D-log in 4K120p is a joke and deal breaker. Was planning on buying it to use exclusively as a slow mo wide angle gimbal cam.
 

 

DJI kills everyone else in the drone market I wish they invested more in the regular camera market or at least gimbal camera market.

FIXED! Latest firmware adds 10bit color and choice of Dlog M or HLG for 4K 120P.

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

Other than 120fps that is 4k only, everything else I shoot in RAW so is 8k (R5c has cropped RAW too but I don't use it as I prefer to crop myself). I'm a fan of RAW as it can be graded more heavily without breaking apart, good colorists (not like me 😉 ) can do great with 10bit log material, me less so. I also like that I don't need to set the WB upfront especially when I have zero time for setup or mistakes.

I take a lot of stills out both horizontal and vertical, so the resolution helps.
Also with 8k I can frame it a bit more loose and have some safety or is some case adding camera movements when the camera is fix like a fake panning, I add a bit of fake camera shake in Resolve to have it more natural.
  
I normally deliver in 4k. I do archive in 8k. 
 

There is 4K 120P RAW on the Z8/9, but cropped.

Nikon Z8 $300 off today.

$3697, so forget the Canon R5C on price. IBIS is worth the small price difference...

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

No NDs?

Well, no screw-in ND's for sure. I do not see any magnetic ones working. And there is no replaceable lens cover like a GoPro has that enables screw-on ND's. 

But, really, putting ND's on this is inconvenient at best if there is ever a possibility.

And ND's are not a solution for the high shutter speeds that are required for digital stabilization. 

Shooting at 60P solves the motion problem for the Pocket 3 and the Hero 12. Not a solution for this wannabe action cam at the only resolution worth using on it.  

I still do not get the enthusiasm for this thing. Let's repeat - inferior dynamic range, by a lot, to the Pocket 3 and the Hero 12, inferior stabilization to both, and the 8K 24P without the ability to hold down shutter speeds makes this spec almost worthless for serious video. And your cellphone probably can do that anyway, with superior AI trickery. My Samsung Fold 4, for example.

But maybe I am just among the "uniformed" that our biggest-poster armchair colorist says - 8bit REC709 video is what all Pro's think is ideal, all of whom know that 24P is the only acceptable frame rate and the 180 rule is a myth.

Btw, I get a commission for every insta360 Ace Pro NOT purchased.

38 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

What cell phone BTW?

No hate for GoPro, I love their yearly updates and market value -- the easiest camera I've ever had the chance to resell it, so why should I? TBH much easier than Insta360! I am talking from my real experience with : )

Yeah, Osmo Pocket 3 is my fav on small size but one brings some complement to each other (go with Osmo as action device and will become a crash cam all of a sudden : D) so I don't think we'd rather pull the trigger on the Hero 12 over the Ace Pro because no matter how much we can complain on 8-bit, the results are out there and they speak volumes on plain real world, that's what counts in the end ; )

Why only high shutter speeds? Not manual exposure there?

No iris. The only way to control exposure is with shutter speed. Bright sun = high shutter speeds.

Digital stabilization in any light = high shutter speeds.

I agree video examples trump talk, but one needs the right examples.

The "plain" real world in the videos I saw were not bright light and not high dynamic range. And some had no important movement - a resolution chart! Leaves on the ground, not blowing in the wind.

Suddenly, 8bit REC709 is ok (5-6 stops of dynamic range). Yes, get exposure right and keep away from high contrast scenes (a nice cloudy day) and the image will be ok. Of course, only the "uninformed" will think this is a limitation according to our resident colorist.  

But seriously? action at 24 fps and high shutter speeds? Good for shooting a flower pot, but please nobody move, fast.

Is this GoPro hate going on?

Anyway, the DJI Pocket 3 blows this nice try away - better stabilization, 4K 60P and much better real low-light performance with its large pixels - no need for high shutter speeds at night for stabilization. And, at night the dynamic range is enormous, cannot be captured by REC709 DR. Really, REC709 only?

"Action" cam - a joke.

Btw, my cell phone shoots 8K 24p, and on a cloudy day, it's not so bad. Had to minimize the distraction of using any camera.

No need for this compromised extra camera.

GoPro issued a new GP-Log LUT (November 9, 2023) along with new firmware, leading to much improved video.

2.35:1 aspect ratio from 16:9 5.3K 60P clips. Noise reduction was turned off, sharpening was set to low, and the bitrate was increased to 180 Mbps using the latest GoPro Labs firmware. The last clip, an interview with a tea farmer, was shot in a very dark room, and DaVinici Resolve noise reduction was applied to the clip. No noise reduction was applied in post to any other clip.

Meitan is a major tea-producing area in China.