Liam

diggin H

1 hour ago, kaylee said:

@Liam have u considered moving to a place with more... people? just throwing it out there, i kno its not easy, but youre young and durable

Just got accepted to The Center for Cartoon Studies which is in a teeny tiny town in Vermont, so sort of the opposite plan for the moment but I'm not sure I'm convinced moving to a more active place would make me more plugged in.. that's obviously been a thought though /:

I've been trying to find people to partner with to make films for a long time... You CAN do it alone.. and I made 6 films that way, hoping it would help me meet people to work with. It did not. It is a little bit of a dead end to make films alone forever. There are mediums where you can actually work alone - novels, comic books, and animation are all on par with film, or better in some ways. Film requires the most resources. Novels are the hardest to find an audience for. I might only be a cartoonist now, and not a filmmaker. Cartooning takes the most practice and time (sort of). And still no audience, but I can finally make my stuff.

I do think there's an issue right now where people are not trying to partner with amateurs. A director who might go somewhere and an actor who might go somewhere, if they can communicate, should spend all their time together. But the amount of time both are just saying "no" back and forth is crazy. This is part of the reason that the "don't work for free" trend bugs the shit out of me. Mildly successful filmmakers are all just super popular - they have a little posse who worship them, they can raise stupid amounts on kickstarter, and they don't let anyone else in. So, I hope this was helpful and tragic.

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

I think most people at some point in your life fall into that definition at times LoL. When it lingers is when it is bad. Hmm I have been feeling a little weird myself. Must be EOSHDitis. Yikes, only cure is to buy a god damn Fuji. Jesus, what a curse. It's all Liam's fault.

Lol, if you heard me say buy a new camera... that's on you

7 hours ago, kaylee said:

yeah u should of course make stuff lol, u need to keep making stuff until you make something thats great~!

Quentin made Res Dogs with millions of dollars and a killer cast of top actors. He can't do jack shit without all that

I actually saw a really good clip of his first first feature (My Best Friend's Birthday?), which he called practice and threw away.. not sure the budget on that one. But we've definitely got an apple and an orange in the mix

1 hour ago, kaylee said:

you can have all the email lists and social media in the world, it doesnt really matter

try making something thats fucking dynamite. focus on that. then everything else will be easy

 

Think I recall in the full clip, RR keeps going on about how you should practice by making a film every week... but QT is just will not stand for it

29 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

does that mean??? Do you mean you want to create something and have it become popular with no effort on your part to promote it at all

A mailing list is slightly unusual today. On youtube there's best, second best.. something good can be 50th and not worth your time. The one thing they get in the mail won't be compared to or compete with anything, and I'm sick of explaining... As for "trying" hmm.. never thought of that! Worth a shot! These are all buzzwords, but I'm glad some people think it sounds inspiring. Offer anything concrete, please.

20 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't know.So many young people iI know just seem to be depressed as hell. Wasn't that way when I was young. And it is because Nothing is easy today unless you are just lucky as heck. I know you can make yourself lucky but man, it is pretty unpredictable now, and that is what is bad. I heard something I think is crazy is that by 2030 40% of the people in the USA will be self employed! Hell that vast majority of people are not made to lead, most normally are followers. And that is the way it Should be. You can't have too many chiefs and not enough Indians as they say. If that is true God help 50 % of them. They will be worse off than before. Bankrupt and depressed even more. Running a business is nerve racking, you are never relaxed, have time for nothing, family or friends way to live. It is a FULL time job 7 days a week. Yeah that ought to all work out well LoL. I hope like heck that is not true. It will be Really ugly.

In 50,000 years, hopefully sooner, (if we're still around) there won't be jobs at all, or money, or famous people. That was all a bad idea in the first place. So yeah, we're really solving stuff.

36 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Mildly successful blogger, you should be so lucky.  You Have to compete. You think someone is going to give you something in this day and age just because you are a nice guy. Hell 1/3 of young people still live at home. If it was easy they would all be living in a great home with a picket fence, a new car in the driveway. You are competing with the whole world now, not Bob down the street. I think you are wanting something that is long gone. There aren't 600 book authors now, there are Millions of them, so average skill is below average now. You have to be Casey Neisat hungry now to make it. He is not alone trust me. Yeah Vimeo is full, full of a lot of people that can make shit happen.  You have to get hungry, mad as hell, try anything, not hope the tooth fairy shows up. Hell you had to be that way when I was young to really make it in a reasonably big way. But it is a Hell of a lot harder today. I see some really ugly things that are going to happen down the road. This globalization stuff has leveled the playing field. There is no place for people to hope stuff happens, you have to Make it happen, and keep that pace up for the rest of your life. I don't envy anyone that is young in this day and age that doesn't have an inborn drive to succeed. A big time drive.

I was saying... Vimeo is where everyone goes. Make your own path, and in a way you won't have competition. I know there are millions and millions of artists.

1 hour ago, hansel said:

Hey, like I said. I am doing fashion stuff. Here are a gazillion people out there doing the same BUT, are they the best bag designers in town? Have the best skilled production? What's your expertise? How does it mirror in the real world?

If we make a prototype and I would put it on my table (or insta yt respectively) no one notices, no one cares. You got to be that bag guy, In your fricking village. If someone thinks about picking up a camera or writing or what ever, he knows he needs to call you because you are the dude in town. "Yeah sure I can help!"

If you have no skill no knowledge why would anyone want to see or talk to you?

Not joking here. Show us your reel, boom!!! Maybe you would have 5 more fans, off you go....Not sure who it was, maybe @Oliver Daniel posted some work two weeks ago, it just shows he is fucking serious about what he is doing. 

If i show my product to industry people they see it is made with skill passion and knowledge. Don't waste people's time....I know a couple ad's and account managers in advertising here. If a young guy come up to me and says "hey do you know anyone who could..". I can put you in front of the right people but it is your stuff knowledge skill agreeableness  that wins them over. And don't tell them that you are not into advertising. Because why would you care for an audience if it is not for the money for to make more movies or to buy a yacht. (Unless u r lunatic)

Intern with the kings here on the forum. Visit @mercer help him with his shoot?..... Good luck.

p.s. It is not about mailing lists it is about people respecting you for what you do and having a good time doing it....oh gosh sorry.

Yeah, I'm definitely looking for peers, before "fans"

For that, you don't need to be the best. I feel like you're saying both.. idk if "have peers" is advice. I'm tryin ?

28 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You Tube and Vimeo reach the most people in the world that might look at what you create. If you can't get traction on there with some kind of Blog I just don't see it happening anywhere, anyhow. You can't get anymore eyeballs looking at your stuff than on there. Instagram is more Young teenage girls than anything. Now if that is your audience go for it. Nobody gets famous on Facebook.

If you can't come out with something interesting at least once a week on You Tube, whether it is just you as a talking head, or a new video than it Ain't never going to happen. With all the cheap, pretty good video cameras out, there are 1000's videos a day made around the world, some shorts, that might be pretty damn good. You Have to be better than they are. Not saying you aren't, but you have to produce a great product, a great experience or it isn't going to work. It's a Whole new world out there now. Tons of competition now. It isn't for the meek.

I would think if you can't find an audience on vimeo, you're totally normal, because vimeo is full. It doesn't have to mean anything about the quality of your content. I'm trying to say I want a route where I'm not competing at all. that's a real thing, but I think anyone who's done that has had to do it on their own... not use what they were told works by a mildly successful blogger etc

11 hours ago, kye said:

give people something valuable

11 hours ago, kye said:

Work out what you're selling, then get out there and find people that want that thing.

9 hours ago, hansel said:

it has to be mind blowing content

9 hours ago, hansel said:

get started and do stuff that counts to you and there is other wierd people out there that might think it's valuable to them

36 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

You either have the wrong content, or you are getting your content in front of the wrong eyeballs

36 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

you had BETTER have a good idea of your target audience

These all sound nice... I hope it's not crazy to ask if they actually mean anything.

I obviously like what I do, and I think I'm actually doing it. finished like 10 projects in 2 years, and started others, so I'm working.

not sure about knowing your target audience... do most authors know that they're writing for men age 21-49? Or do they take whoever shows up?

And how does it help me to know? Getting it to the right people is definitely my goal, but not a lot of filmmakers are discouraged from Vimeo, right? It's kind of a catch all. Are there actually niche options out there? Or is the thought that I'm probably not getting it to the right people just easier to handle, because it means I'm the one doing it wrong?

as for mailchimp... I mean there are countless things I could spend a hundred dollars a year on, and I will not do them all. Like I said, I just do not know how it's supposed to help me at this stage. Maybe it's just what I'm looking for, but it appears to be branding and tools for people with an audience (not me).

1 minute ago, mercer said:

I can’t say for sure but I think Liam is looking for some type of service that will find the subscribers? 

 @Liam have you explored Reddit or blogging?

I was mostly interested because of Adrian Tomine's mailing list for his comic that started in like 1991. I don't know how he found people, but I don't want something too like.. idk, fake. I guess there could be a service that makes email into another social platform where people scroll and see me on a list. wouldn't want that, since I'm already failing there.

My ORIGINAL question I guess was... You just ask everyone for their emails, or? Maybe if I did a local art show, I could ask for emails. And then they could tell their friends, and my products would have the signup...

I'm sort of looking at blogging... sounds like agony and could be another investment etc etc... interviews with other artists could be fun. Have you seen Eighth Grade? 1 view, 0 views, 0 views, 1 view... yeah, I don't know how that's supposed to work either before I'm already famous

44 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah I got to admit he has gotten sort of Fruity as of late. Not nearly as big of fan as I was years ago, not that I even had any desire to meet him even then LoL. But I do admire his drive. He is a make shit happen person. And that is the only types that are going to survive, and make good money on YT down the road. The secret is out all over the world. Just think how little you would have to get to be sort of doing damn well in say the Congo in Africa for subscribers. 250k of them and you hit the jackpot. Several Patreon subs on top of that and you are Golden.

Yeah, he's obviously really good at certain things.. or, building an audience.. and only that. But even the way he does that depresses me. I hate whining about things being a popularity contest, but I mean...

38 minutes ago, mercer said:

All you can do is keep working and finding your audience. With every project your craft grows and the connection between yourself and your work fortifies.

Have you tried posting your work on IG. I haven’t had the chance to watch your latest cartoon but I enjoyed your first one. If you can come up with 1 minute or less cartoons, Instagram is a great place to grow an audience.

I stopped getting new followers on vimeo probably 4 films ago. Somehow fewer views etc with each new one...

I've gotta try instagram at least for promotion stuff, I guess, but it feels as hopeless as youtube really.. viral stuff can go super viral, but if you have nothing, an audience won't just appear.

I'm actually applying to school right now, but it's crazy, even trying to just learn more can be a path where someone can put up the wall and say "not good enough!"

41 minutes ago, mercer said:

Idk, Mail Chimp is pretty cheap but it may not be what you are looking for.

You probably just need to grind out work and post it as many places as you can. Find review sites. Enter in festivals and contests. But most importantly keep creating and posting. The more work you have the more chances of more eyes on it.

It's over a hundred dollars a year, which could be fine if it's helpful, but I can't make heads or tails of what it's even supposed to do. If it helps me send emails, I'll look at it later.

Yeah, I'm just spiraling out again because yesterday I got rejected from the worst film festival ever. But I do make a lot of stufd and post it places.

38 minutes ago, kye said:

The recipe that I hear from the professional youtubers and bloggers is to: 1) be consistent but expect it to take 5 years before it's a full-time income, and 2) be authentic.

If you're crazy good then it will take less time, but my impression is that it always sucks at the start.

One thing I did take note of was that if you come to the attention of someone with a much larger following than you, they will either mention you or not based upon the quality of your past works.  This means that instead of looking at the views of your uploads / posts as you release them, think of them more like your resume for getting big mentions later on.

If you're not enjoying it, then it might be time to change it up so that you're enjoying the journey rather than just grinding to get to somewhere else?

What is it you're doing anyway?

I'm not trying to make a living, I'm just trying to gt any sort of audience to help the constant feeling I'm delusional.

I enjoy my work, but staying sane with no support isn't easy.

I make films and comics, and write books because I've been changing it up because nothing is working.

But yeah, I'm not sure if my whiny specifics are necessary here.

Lot of people I've been a fan of, way back in the day, were using a mailing list, and maybe I'm embarrassing myself again, buy I just don't know what the basic premise is.. just ask anyone and everyone for their addresses?

25 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah you have to post like hell on You Tube and you Have to be good, a standout. Not many people have the time or talent to do that everyday. I think in this day and age you just have to be damn lucky to have a decent film you make become a real sensation. Man there is now competition from all over the world no matter their income bracket. Like I said if you are good you can make standout stuff with your phone. Hell nearly everyone has one of those now.

I see Casey Neistat has 15 million subscribers now. 15 Million!! But how many people have his drive, passion, talent skills, get along with everyone it seems. He is a dynamo, go,go, go. And he is not alone on there. And like I have said, editing, VFX stuff is bigger standout now than just shooting the stuff. How many people are good at that. Man it would take a commitment from hell to stand out now I think. But why not, why not try.

I hate Casey so goddamn much. Good for him and all, but jesus christ.

13 minutes ago, nigelbb said:

MailChimp https://mailchimp.com/?ds_rl=1260419&ds_rl=1260446&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3ebdBRC1ARIsAD8U0V4Q03PPKpZVLzYVhfjPtzxPCCz2AK1J60q8zanNc07buw3-Xe3x5mMaAsdeEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CO-1gpnm9N0CFegw0wodXb8P3w

To my knowledge, this is a helpful tool if you're already working that way, but maybe won't help me get people won't quite help me get going..?

Correct me if I'm wrong

I feel pretty able to send emails, so an expensive tool won't be my first step

Might not be ideal for a filmmaker, vs like an auhor or cartoonist, but I'm curious..

Seems like fans that sign up for a mailing list might be more enthusiastic or feel like they're part of something (?)

It's kind of old school or underground in a cool way maybe

Maybe it's in direct conflict with a vimeo page.. like if people already follow you, they might just get pissed that you're also bugging them through email

Idk. No idea how I'd build one etc

Maybe this is basically what patreon is for now

Just antsy and struggling like always to reach anyone. 

This is sort of an old project, because I kinda gave up on it. It doesn't quite tell the story the way I wanted it to, but I like the way it looks and decided I might as well share it.

and again, the disclaimer that it's maybe not at all relevant because it's animated, sorry

@Damphousse he may not be making tooons, but yeah, it was interesting. I can message you his name if you want. I just don't want that to become part of the discussion here - like is he a hack etc..

And yes! Thank you! Plus like most computers lol, I'm reading this thread kinda baffled.

The point is also that not a lot of other people are doing it. And that it's in person. Blurays would be newer but probably actually less likely for everyone to be able to watch it.

And with DVDs, there's a case with the cover on it that could get you interested in the film, and it looks like a product.

So.. I didn't feel too crazy, sorry.

Maybe I WILL go back to 2004.. when people were nicer!! 

Maybe an alright alternative?

A travelling filmmaker passed through here a little while ago with his merch and made a decent haul and has a good following from it. Not sure how he gets a "gig" though.

Logistics? Arts festivals? Flea markets? Is it pretty pointless since there's Vimeo?

just a rough little thing.. again, not the right place to share it, so you may ignore

6 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Liam - organise it!!!

This kinda sounds like your thing

6 hours ago, Matthew Hartman said:

If I were you I'd just call up the buddies and have a night of it. 

4 minutes ago, kye said:

Completely agree.  

Perhaps calling it a "short film night" might have better connotations?

Yeahhh.. I'd do that if I had film buds.

*cries a lot, but in a cool way*

I don't think anyone would invest in me, and I kind of don't want anyone to. If they would, i'd just use that supposrt to make films and not feel enough like a failure to want to put this together.

There's also something weird and slightly cultish about it being our whole community... like it would become all about the horrible $16,000 local film just because everyone was involved in making it, and everyone would still be trying to reject the $0 budget film that I actually like. If I started giving power to everyone here who thinks they're a filmmaker, I might not even attend in the end.

Plus there's already the much more popular festival in my city, which I am somewhat trying to fight against, with the whole "Slamdance" vibe.

I'm surprised to hear I'd need insurance... can't anyone invite anyone to a meeting room in the library? Can't I insist we're friends just hanging out?

I'd love to make it international and include people from here especially, but I think I can feel it getting too big again..

@Xavier Plágaro Mussard see, I was kinda thinking if it's mostly the filmmakers that would be fine, since we're keeping it small anyway and not trying to become famous. Accepting all of them was like the entire point of it too, not caring if they "suck" because idk if my films suck either, and I'm probably mostly doing it for exactly those people. I also think they'd all be happy to talk about it.. I don't know if they would submit their film if THEY were embarrassed about their own films and thought they sucked.

@sanveer I could see some benefit to really limiting the run times, in case the others are going to have a hard time sitting through it. There might be only so far you can go to be accepting and understanding of others in your postion.. good stuff to think about, thanks guys!

Maybe I could scatter in some really short "ringers" from really good filmmakers I know? Who probably won't attend, but just to give it some momentum?

I'll save you a seat just in case, @kaylee!