Tone1k

Despite you continuing to delete my comments I'll continue...... Because although you may not be able to see it, in the mood you are in, I am trying to help you. 

I work as a freelancer in the broadcast industry as well as film industry.

When it comes to Broadcast... while I'm not the best out there at what I do, I know plenty of freelancers that get work over me despite producers preferring my work. Do you know why they get work over me? It's because they do send those emails (the one you wrote in the childish voice) and it's because they do actively hound the bookings people in the office.

I've never been one to do that and it sounds like you haven't either. 

Sometimes it's not about who's the best but who's been the most persistent at forming relationships with others in the industry. I've never been good at marketing myself or ringing up the people doing the hiring asking for work in the same way that it sounds like you don't do that with camera manufacturers. It means that even though producers tell me I might do a better job of something than the next person, I don't always get the call for work because the communication between producers and those booking crew is not always there. In the same way that while you may have relationships with technical people at BM, the PR people might not get the info. 

Do what you do bacause you enjoy it. If you hate this forum, then yes, stop it or pass it on to someone else. If you still enjoy this forum, if you still enjoy doing reviews, then don't let this one instance ruin everything else. 

Andrew, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

Blackmagic really don't owe you anything for any 'free publicity'. Their Pocket 4k has started a frenzy among the camera world stirring up conversation and leading people to discuss it on forums, maybe you owe Blackmagic for making your site and this thread so popular? Maybe you owe all of your forum members here for contributing all their content here  and making this site popular. Maybe you owe John Brawley for his contributions, I know I read this thread mainly because of his input and presence here...... Silly, I know, but the tantrum you seem to be throwing could also be seen as a bit silly too. 

Seems like nothing really new came from the event and maybe BM didn't think you would want to do an unboxing video...? 

Your reaction here only serves to diminish your character and reputation and by snubbing the camera based on you not receiving a pre prod version for testing or not being invited to one event. It might also suggest that you can be easily bought which is not what most people want out of an online reviewer. 

Who knows, maybe a marketing person at BM didn't think it appropriate to invite someone who seems brand focused by being call EOSHD? 

There are so many reasons why you may have not received an invite.... 

Just my 2c.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Nobody really complains about the GH5 screen.

All that is needed is a hinge along the top of the articulated screen so it can be flipped out when flat against the camera back.

Best of both worlds.

I haven't used the GH5 but if it can't be tilted up and down without having the screen opened out, then I'm really not interested although yes, a hinge on top would give best of both I suppose.

I predominately use my Mirrorless for stills and just don't like the ergonomics of a screen hanging off the side of the camera when in use. I really don't know why people make a big deal of the feature unless you take lots of selfies.....or vlog I suppose. 

I hate fully articulating screens. I just like my screen to tilt up and down like Sony's current screens or better still, Fuji's which also articulates side ways for shooting portrait stills. Flip outs always seem so flimsy and hard to work with when you have hdmi ports/ cables in the way. 

The next logical step for Sony's A7S series is internal 4k@60p and internal 10bit as well. 

1 hour ago, ajay said:

I have one on order, but have been telling myself not to expect it until 2019. If I get it earlier, yahoo! I also predicted that this thread would grow to over 100 pages before any sample video would be seen. Now I think it might be 200.

It would be nice if someone from BM would give us an update. Give us some real numbers of when we'll see some sample footage and give us a legit timeframe as to when they will start to ship. It's the least they could do for their customer base.

Where are you BM?

BMD said September. 

Can we wait until at least October 1st before starting discussions like this. It's a little boring. 

Ultimately what I was trying to get at by indirectly comparing Nikon's camera to a drone  is that DJI (a drone company) can see the value of 10bit codecs in consumer drones but camera manufacturers who's primary goal is image quality, apparently can't. 

11 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Pixel are Pixel but bigger the sensor bigger the heat, more processing it does the heat goes up. It is mitigated by better (generally smaller lithography packing more chip in smaller space ), That's what has driven the price performance of semi conductor in the last 50 years. Unfortunately sensor size are setm, so manufactueing process, material etc can be use but not as big a change as a node reduction. 2 bit more is 25% more data to move around and copy, perhaps they can and are just doing the planned obsolescence, or they just can't. 

But the sensor is outputting high bit depth RAW data so it's heat production is a constant no matter if the final codec is 8bit 10bit.

Next comes the processor. It needs to process the RAW data. 

What takes more processing power, RAW to 10bit ProResLT or RAW to 8bit h264? 

Lastly, that data has to be pushed to the storage media of choice. 

We all know that QXD and even SD for that matter can easily handle 10bit ProRes without the interface getting all that hot. 

22 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

 

Read the thread properly. I stated 10bit vs 8bit and Danyyyel came back with the reply above stating 4k60p as a reply to my bit depth comment....which is not what I was referring to as you should be able to read. 

Again, read my comment. I still can't see where I mentioned 4K60p. 

7 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Ohhh now deflecting, it was 60p 4k not 10bit or 8 bit. Even that might require not the sensor but expeed more data transfer, but not as much as 30p - 60p.

Read the below.

6 hours ago, Tone1k said:

DJI can see the importance of 10bit internal recoding in a mid range drone. Why the hell are Sony and Nikon still doing 8bit internal? Massive fail... Especially on Nikon's parts. Move on!

Not sure where I mentioned 4K60p?

Either way, are you saying that Nikon and Sony's high end Mirrorless cameras have less image processing power than a consumer drone? 

Data rates are not the issue here. There are plenty of 10bit codecs that are easy to record to SD card. 

16 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Of course it does. It requires more processing power, which creates more heat. 

When it comes to storing video as 10bit or 8bit? Not really. 

2 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Care to show me what FF camera they have that does 4k 60p internal please, I am curious to know.

Sensor size doesn't really come into the equation 

DJI can see the importance of 10bit internal recoding in a mid range drone. Why the hell are Sony and Nikon still doing 8bit internal? Massive fail... Especially on Nikon's parts. Move on!

6 hours ago, John Brawley said:

 

I’ve long felt bit depth is the most important part of the digital imaging chain, not resolution.

JB

This. 

What good is 4k, 6k when you have ugly banding or other artifacts from low bit depth codecs. 

Bit depth and DR influences nice natural looking images far more than resolution. 

3 hours ago, Joek said:

I prefer the crop. Line skipping introduces a ton of issues and drops the overall quality. With cropping all you have to do is simply use a wider lens. Plus for some reason Sony's implementation of it tends to exaggerate the moire, but I guess you could argue that's more of a OLPF issue... 

In use, it's really not an issue 95% of the time and saves having to switch to stupidly wide lenses. 

48 minutes ago, kye said:

Column / line skipping perhaps?

If so, the moire should confirm it pretty easily..

Yes, there is a little moire in certain situations when shooting 2K@240fps.

For the most part it's not an issue and with 4k up to 120p, I rarely use the 2K feature but personally I prefer Sony's implementation to a 4x crop. 

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Raw HD must by definition be cropped. 

This is true for all cameras. 

(unless it is a native HD sensor)

FS700 Raw output does not have a crop when shooting 2K @240fps despite it having a 4K sensor. Although it is known that Sony does a small amount of processing on its RAW out. 

5 hours ago, Django said:

XT3 pricing may be the best part as it's rumoured to be under XT2 retail (at launch) due to manufacturing now shifted to China (meh). 

This would make it by far the cheapest 10-bit 4K60p APS-C camera system right?

Yep, not even the FS5 does 10bit 4K. 

If Fuji delivers, I'm not sure why people would be so dismissive of this camera. 10bit, great colours straight out of camera, 4k60p and the best lenses if you want to stay compact.

It's what everyone wanted a year ago and all you really need today for 99% of the time. 

Hey Fuji, now give us an FS7 or C300 style camera with XLR and TC inputs, high data rate recording (ProRes or Dnx?) and paired with your wonderful and affordable fujinon cine zooms, we'd have a great A and B Camera system. 

50 minutes ago, kye said:

 

Cool.  I've said it can be useful in some situations, you've said it can be useful in some situations.

I'm just not sure how any of that added up to the below....?

Unless it was autocorrect and you meant to say "yes, you raise valid points, but have you also considered....."

I was referring to your content is king like comment after the OP had already put that to bed with his first sentence. 

3 hours ago, Tone1k said:

AF is good for some uses

That's not the only time in this thread that I have stated that AF can be useful in some situations. 

I'm not against AF, it can be handy on a gimbal with face tracking depending on the shot but using it so that you can concentrate on framing and free up the creative process is not what I'd say it is for. 

To the OP, go for the better camera and learn to focus manually. Use the cameras focus aids and if you lose focus every now and again, don't worry too much about it. A manual focus pull to correct focus being off looks more organic and less distracting to the viewer than a jerky AF lens hunting around. 

26 minutes ago, kye said:

It doesn't make sense TO YOU.  That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.  When we hear about string theory or calculus or Byzantine poetry we might not understand it but that doesn't mean that no-one understands it.

This is beginning to sound like you've never shot an interview before...  The answer why you don't have one camera is jump cuts.  If you shoot with multiple cameras this gets around the issue.

As an example, here's an interview (one of many) shot by a professional film-maker who is on-screen interviewing, this example is not that bad and she could have used MF with a smaller aperture but if you want a close-up with a bit more production value then not only would AF be required, and from Canon or Sony it would be 99% reliable too.

 

Like @jonpais says, you're assuming.

I think the misunderstanding is that you're used to shooting things that are either in controlled situations, or if they aren't controlled (like ENG isn't) then there's a dedicated camera operator.  AF starts to make sense when things aren't controlled AND there isn't a dedicated camera operator.

Also, AF is also cheaper.  MF requires manual lenses with nice fly-by-wire focus or mechanical focus, it requires a camera with a screen that is bright, large, and has good enough focus assist features.  A face-detect DPAF camera costs a few hundred dollars, and you can film yourself and not have your feet nailed to the ground.

It can also be turned off too.  That's definitely a thing.  Just in case you weren't aware.

I've shot plenty of interviews. Been in the business for twenty years. In Europe I worked for CNN CNBC BBC etc shooting interviews and plenty of them were two cameras and one operator. 

The interview you have shown doesn't require AF. You said people walking around but these people are sitting still.  I understand that AF can be useful as I originally said but most here that like to start urguments single out a few words I say and start writing in caps for some reason. 

You are also assuming he intends to just use the AF for some shots but he never said that in his original post which is what I'm referring to. 

Again, he wanted to take focus out of the film making process so where does it say he intends doing that for just a few shots? 

And comparing a bad story with manual focus to a good story with AF doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. The story won't change so why bring in that variable when talking about AF? 

19 minutes ago, kye said:

I'm not being sarcastic, but you're not understanding my point either.

If you have the skill to MF and make the film you want then that's great - focus is an artistic tool (as you rightly point out) and having exact control over focus will benefit your end product, no doubt.

However, if you're operating in a situation where you aren't able to pay attention to everything and you have to sacrifice something, then relying on autofocus is a good thing to 'delegate'.  If you're interviewing someone who moves around a lot and have two cameras, using AF and concentrating on better questioning will bring you a better film.  It seems like AF hunting is a real turn-off for you, and I get that - everyone has their preferences and that's totally fine, I'm not a fan of it either.

Your statement "Id rather watch a good story shot on Betacam with no AF hunt than a good story shot in 8K , 16stops DR with DSLR type AF hunt." isn't my argument and isn't the comparison I'm making.  In your comparison both are good stories.  If we re-frame the comparison to what I'm saying then we get this..  I'd rather a great story captured clumsily rather than a boring story captured with outstanding cinematography.  

Maybe it's a difference of shooting situation?  Maybe you're used to shooting films that are well planned, shot under predictable and controlled conditions, where there are enough hands to cover all the necessary jobs.  If so, MF would be totally fine.  If you're a single-operator, with multiple cameras, interviewing someone while trying to hold a boom mic, then adding MF to that will mean something else is compromised.  People can't be an expert in everything simultaneously and sometimes something has to give.  AF hunting can be very distracting, but it's rare that you can't get around it in the edit room.  It's impossible to get around a dull story, bad sound or pointing the camera at the wrong thing, you simply can't edit your way out of those things.

It's a question of priorities, and focus is important, but it's not the most important.

The quality of Ingersons story does not change. Why are we comparing a good story to a bad one when talking about AF? It really doesn't make sense. Compare apples to apples.

19 minutes ago, kye said:

If you're a single-operator, with multiple cameras, interviewing someone while trying to hold a boom mic

Come on, if you have two cameras recording with no operators (because you are holding the boom), then there is no one to track the talent which means they would be standing or sitting still in an interview situation negating the need for AF. If they ARE moving around, then sure you could just lock off a wide shot but that would negate the need for a second camera to shoot a single because there would be no operator to track them...unless you want two wide shots for some reason???

Sounds like your examples are a little far fetched. I would suggest if you are new to film making and are a one man crew shooting the above situation, use one camera and get a few lavs. Operate the camera while wearing headphones and then shoot non sync cutaways and wides.  You will get a better film this way than operating a boom while you have two cameras capturing who knows what.

I shot EFP/ENG for years.....and no, most shoots where not well organised. 

Im reading between the lines here. The OP comes from photography where it is possible to rely on your AF and they say they want to take focusing out of the film making equation so by that, I can only assume they mean pretty much all the time.

12 minutes ago, jonpais said:

BUT HE NEVER SAID ‘all the time’. Those are your words.

Just like if I said I was going to start skateboarding to work in order to reduce my carbon footprint. It doesn’t mean I’m going to skateboard in a thunderstorm. 

Adding the words ‘all the time’ to practically any statement can make it sound absurd.

How about you let Ingerson clarify what he meant by the statement "The autofocus would allow you to take a big technical part out of the creative work, leaving you with framing only". 

After all, when I said I was going to ride my motorbike to work , i rode it in thunderstorms and all. 

On 8/19/2018 at 12:37 AM, Ingerson said:

What are your thoughts on choosing between AF with compressed codec (like the A7III) vs great codec but pulling focus yourself on a smaller sensor (Blackmagic pocket/micro/4k)?

The autofocus would allow you to take a big technical part out of the creative work, leaving you with framing only

Sounds to me like he/she IS wanting AF to use all the time so that he/she can concentrate on framing and being creative. Doesn't say anywhere that they are wanting it just for gimbal shots etc.....

The thing is, focus IS part of the creative process.

4 hours ago, kye said:

Remember, the object of all of this is a high quality finished output, not mad MF skills.  It's better to tell a good story and use AF than to use MF and tell a shitty one.

Good grief.....I hope you're being sarcastic?? Why does the AF or lack thereof change the quality of the story?

Nothing says low quality more than AF hunt.

Id rather watch a good story shot on Betacam with no AF hunt than a good story shot in 8K , 16stops DR with DSLR type AF hunt.

AF is good for some uses, but if you are buying a camera based on AF performance and think you'll just be able to run n gun with AF for every shot, you are mistaken.

For film making, don't rely on AF. It will never be as smart as your brain for choosing what needs to be in focus in your frame unless it's a super simple scene. 

A slight AF hunt during a shot will make the shot unusable unless you can edit around it, especially when it's jerky like you get with most dslr lenses. 

Learn to focus manually.