Ed_David

Eat the rich ?

Thanks for doing this Andrew.  I'm trying to get an interview with Bruce from Jinnimag and try to get up enough evidence to show Wired and the NYTimes, New Yorker, and Engadget and Variety and Hollywood reporter to cover this story.  Also maybe sharing this news with Sony and Canon, maybe they have industry connections they can use.  I spoke to a journalist at Ars Technica, and he said they don't have the resources to verify the claims in the Jinnimag video - they need a red minimag and a red touch lcd, but maybe they have legal experts they can talk to - or if someone has a patent lawyer we can consult with.
Let me know who wants to help start getting this going.
Andrew, also you should consult with a lawyer about their NDA against you.  I'm sure someone can offer you pro-bono legal advice.  It seems a little fishy.

Thanks for doing this Andrew.  I'm trying to get an interview with Bruce from Jinnimag and try to get up enough evidence to show Wired and the NYTimes, New Yorker, and Engadget and Variety and Hollywood reporter to cover this story.  Also maybe sharing this news with Sony and Canon, maybe they have industry connections they can use.  I spoke to a journalist at Ars Technica, and he said they don't have the resources to verify the claims in the Jinnimag video - they need a red minimag and a red touch lcd, but maybe they have legal experts they can talk to - or if someone has a patent lawyer we can consult with.
Let me know who wants to help start getting this going.
Andrew, also you should consult with a lawyer about their NDA against you.  I'm sure someone can offer you pro-bono legal advice.  It seems a little fishy.

Yes, but there are quite a few of those niches, and a whole planet crazy about image and video right now. Youtube/fb/insta are running the planet (and I am not on any of those!).
Also, camera phones IS a camera market, it is a phone that has dedicated sensors, lenses, photo and video pipeline, special imaging software, e.t.c like a dedicated camera does.
Imagine Canon powered Xiaomi phones with 20-40% rights for Canon, offering AF, color science, their logo, maybe even a new fab for sensors - strengthen and modernize their own ancient fab labs. Back in profit instantly!
Samsung left cameras because Samsung do not do niche anymore. They left most of their niche companies (military also, I think) but they still innovate and produce and gain in sensors, memory, ssd, phones, where they can mass produce.
Other companies find their niche and thrive (BM, Fuji, e.t.c).

Sony
https://doddlenews.com/reds-jannard-speaks-out-on-sony-lawsuit/
Updated 2012 RED camera system / raw codec patent document
https://www.scribd.com/doc/125170172/Video-camera-US-patent-8174560
Wooden Camera cages and V-mount
http://cinescopophilia.com/red-sues-wooden-camera/
"Sunglasses are mentioned quite a few times throughout the claim"

"Failure to file a patent application within the one-year period will result in the invention being passed onto public domain, where it will no longer be eligible for a patent."
https://definitions.uslegal.com/o/one-year-rule/
 
https://www.studiodaily.com/2019/01/red-atomos-settle-patent-dispute-promise-integrated-recording-products-come/
http://www.studiodaily.com/2018/12/atomos-goes-public-australian-securities-exchange/
So if the patent is invalidated, will RED refund Atomos backdated licensing fees?

Backstory is becoming very wide knowledge.
1.6m views
 

I would love to see RED taken to the cleaners.
They're Patent bullies and need to be cut to size. So much for R&D, and Made in the US, and unique design and all that BS.
I hope someone does a sting with them and the US Patent office. Giving them a patent in video camera was beyond ludicrous. The patent office also needs a series of sting operation.
I hope RED gets sued across all continents and all countries where it sells. 
 
I am suddenly wondering whether Oakleys were ever completely made in the US or partially in China, and only later represented to  Luxottica to be partially made in China, when it was bought. 

UPDATE: 2 provisional patents, one was filed April 11th 2007 and other in December 2007. Tick the clock backwards 12 months from December 2007 and RED camera was publicly discussed and on sale according to JT's video.
This doesn't seem to be his conjecture, rather historical, factual information from the internet, forums and Jannard interviews, where RED publicly display and demonstrate the technology later patented. Be it NAB 2006 (sales) or IBC 2006 (exhibit) or initial tests and the stuff from 2005... It's all out there.
In JT's video he points to RED putting up "sold out" signs at NAB 2006 for instance which is more than 1 year before one of the provisional patents the final one relied upon, and 2 years before the final patent was granted.
Of course I'm not a lawyer and would encourage anyone to look only at the facts before jumping to opinions, myself included, which is what I am doing! When it comes to the fine details of the law, I am making no claims until I know the facts. Yes JT could be wrong and RED could have a perfectly legal and valid patent, and that would be the end of the discussion.
It's for the FTC to decide... Also over the Made in USA claims.
I won't be taking a firm opinion either way yet.
But I do want people to keep on examining the facts and understanding the info, and we have free speech so are able to do that.
RED should apologise for me for the forced settlement agreement terms and the impact this had on my blog and free speech.
I want internal compressed RAW in many more of our cameras.
It's important RED's patents are checked and their behaviour held to account.
If they are invalid, it has huge consequences.
RED should be allowed to put their side of the story in response to this video and I invite them to do that here, not just play the distraction game with Komodo.

Yeah, see people at newshooters, they are clearly clueless as they have no idea where is the hate in the comment section come from as they keep reposting IG post from red
 
 

With each of these videos, I'm reminded why I support open source, standardization, and collaboration.
@Andrew Reid, I'm glad you wrote this despite being under substantial threat. In my opinion, this Jinni Tech saga is not getting the press it deserves, and I only hope it isn't because  people are too afraid to say anything. RED should be given a platform to respond, but should not be able to sue away negative press.

RED is a patent troll. The fact that they sued Andrew in 2010 to keep his mouth shut tells you all you need to know. That is patent troll behavior.
Ready to hear more facts.

I can't wait for the final Scooby Doo style unmasking.

Don't mention the communists to Jim!!
Ironic choice of music Mr Jinni Tech.

The hint at the end about what awaits in Part 4 might well actually top it !

Opps, was that the sound of the industry being turned upside down?

It is widely known in the camera industry that RED owns a key patent for a cinema cameras featuring compressed RAW.
It is also alleged the technology has featured in a number of past legal claims RED have had over rival camera companies.
Now third party accessory manufacturer Jinni Tech alleges RED "deceived the US patent office" and filed the critical patent late.
Read the full article

At the end of the day, in terms of image improvements, we have seen CCD vs CMOS chips, and the supporting microchips and image processing that goes with it that has given us a blackmagic pocket 4k and the soon to come out, zcam 2 full frame camera that can do raw 4k - which is quite amazing.  We've seen low light kings with canon and sony as well.  And we have seen skintone kings with blackmagic and Arri.
So we kind of have reached the peak of what it is possible, for now, in terms of low-light, size, and capability.
What remains, of course, is a beautiful image.  A beautiful colorful rich image..  Well for people like me that still think there is magic shooting on celluloid.  How celluloid  reacts to light  and overexposure, and motion, and tungsten lighting, and all color.  For me I don't think one camera does that yet.  And I would love to see camera makers continue to move this way forward.
There's still room to be done, and there's still hope for a way to capture data that's better than CMOS.
But for now, I don't really see many cameras making that much progress now.  I don't believe in the 4k vs 8k resolution wars. I'm pretty happy with what we have for video
But for still photography, I really don't see too much more progress that can happen to be justified to the average semi-pro and consumer photographer that makes it worth it, as an investment in glass, and having to carry a camera around, vs just using an iphone.  Especially to those to upgrade their existing cameras as Kisha said.
Is the next nikon z7 or z6 going to be that much better than the z6 for stills?  Sure the dream is the ultimate hybrid stills/video camera - and maybe someone will get there so it does 4k raw and pro res and also beautiful raw still images - but yea, where was I going?  I don't remember.  This post of mine was pointless.
Mattius wins again!  I need to allow people to win arguments and move on with my life.  there is more to life than arguing or debating on a message board.    LEICA RULES! CANON DROOLS!

I think camera's may be coming to a cross roads, they won't be tools anymore, there won't be a noticeable difference in the output of a cheaper DSLR and a high end phone in most situations and for most people's uses. This has happened in lots of industries; computers are one, my 5 year old MacBook Pro still does everything that 90% of computer users need it for but Apple still sell plenty of new ones, cars are another because the current Golf R is far quicker than a Porsche from 10 years ago and the difference isn't that great to even a modern Porsche. 
There will still be a market for people buying cameras like the Leica M, the Fuji's and esoteric products like the ALPA because using them is a different, and better for some, experience to using a phone or a conventional wheels and screens DSLR. Much like the Porsche and Golf example above.
The issue for me will be whether they end up dead industries because of a lack of return on investment and reliability, can companies fund a new camera that we can afford when they know they will only sell a few 10's of thousands of them ? Companies still make film, but how many truly new emulsions have come out since the peak of film ? Companies still make turntables and hifi speakers but there's very little real innovation, because they are cottage industries. 
Perhaps a lack of reliability will be their saving grace, will my GH3 last me as long as my Hasselblad ? I'm yet to actually have a digital camera fail me when I haven't done something egregious to it so perhaps ? 
 

Nah I think you are wrong a some of your points. Right now I don't even Have a camera at all, because my stuff got stolen. But you know what even if I had insurance for it, or even won the Lotto not sure I would even buy a real camera now. It was just so much of a hassle to try to take something compared to just reaching in my pocket and bamm, it done. Is it as good, no, but for the average person it is More than good enough. And the average person is who your going to show the footage to to boot, even if you own an Arri who really is going to see it? Heck maybe 4 people on here even post footage at times.
Here in the States there is just about Zero camera stores left. Wal Mart, Best Buy have nothing but cheap, useless P&S cameras. Even the average person know their phone is just as good except for the silly 400x lens on the P&S. 10 years from now you might not be able to give away a real camera. I don't have a clue how camera manufactures are going to even be in business down the road. Sure a few super high end Cine cameras dedicated to Blockbuster Movies might be left, but that is like a 100 cameras a year to sell If you are lucky. 10 years from now there probably won't even be real Actors. So you might not even need ANY cameras for movies or even Soap Operas. All done in computer.
Nah if I was Canon right now I would pick up my marbles and just go home. I really don't think there is a future for what you call real cameras down the road. Why bother fighting the inevitable. There is no money in it anymore. Phones have just flat killed cameras like it or not.

portrait mode gets rid of the need for most people to have telephoto glass.  they do have different aputure settings in the pro app programs.  smartphones have a one button click to go into photo mode.  it's really not any slower, for most people.
and I've been fooled by the iphone portrait mode so many times now on instagram.  And I work in this business  .  Cinema and semi pro photography will continue, but will be more and more niche.  just as film still hangs on.
You are right.  I am theorizing about leica.  If Mattias you are able to make a prediction, do you think the new-gen leica will offer something more to casual rich people that gets them to want to chuck out their current phone, now that the iphone portrait mode is getting to be "good enough" for most people, and it's one less thing to bring around?
Also aren't you a big Leica enthusiast?  I have no skin in the game.  But I do wish Leica survives, as I do with canon.  I think their glass is really amazing.  I haven't ever used one of their cameras, but I am sure they are quite amazing as well.
 
the rich are getting richer for sure.  And watches is a status symbol for many rich people.  High end cameras are not.  I think the iphone x is a status symbol moreso.  Shooting with a camera is dorky, and will always be dorky.  Never sexy.  Unless it's a film camera then rich hipsters drool over that.  But I don't think rich kids notice whether another kid is shooting with a leica or a sony.  And without the #leica hashtag on a instagram post, no one is probably going to notice the difference between that and most other high end cameras like sony, nikon, canon, and iphone portrait mode.

I think you are living in a dream world thinking the young are going to embrace Leica, MF cameras. Smartphones are what they grew up with. It fits their needs. Social media, YouTube is what they know. They don't need Cine cameras. They have what they need in their purse or pocket. They will get better and better, and Cine cameras will be less and less desirable.
A Smartphone IS the ultimate Hybrid. For the masses it already has been. We are already Dinosaurs on here. Stick a fork in us, we are done.

True but Leica were at death's door in 2004. In 2005 Dr Andreas Kaufmann put them on the path to digital, and that got Leica back on their feet. Cooperation with Panasonic helped too.
The luxury goods market is almost as fickle as the consumer one, just more robust in an economic downturn.
If normal people, whether rich or poor start leaving their cameras at home, eventually they forget they need one and they'll be out of sight, out of mind, a big cultural and fashion shift away... I know people who just "aren't in that game anymore" when it comes to desktop PCs for instance, and once these people leave, it's very hard to get them back.
Japan needs to face the growing crisis head on.
The enthusiast market alone is just not enough to sustain the level of investment necessary.
Hate to be a doomsayer, a gloomster, but it's the truth.
I only hope the next generation who start on smartphones, graduate to something a bit more exciting later. The young are our only hope.

I'm not expert at any of this, but would assume all semi-professional camera makers are taking a hit.  What is the performance with Sony, Leica, Panasonic, etc etc in their camera divisions?
As the iphone portrait mode gets better and better, this is most likely taking away people from canon rebels and the likes.
Next 10 years, god knows what happens with the dslr/mirrorless world.  That iphone portrait mode is probably good enough for 85% of people I would imagine, especially when the end result of photos these days aren't to be blown up.  Not even onto computer, but a 2 in instagram picture on a 720p cell phone that's no larger than 6 inches long.
and full disclosure, even I have been fooled by the iphone portrait mode.