deezid

Shot this recently on the S5IIx in BRAW using the Sigma 28-70 F2.8 (and some DJI Mini 3 Pro drone shots).

Quite happy with the external output, 13 stops of measured DR without any noise reduction, no gamut clipping, no banding, no slow motion noise (no temporal filtering). 

The answer is motioncam.

Looks like an extra shaky GoPro to me? 🤷‍♂️

11 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@deezid
Would the same new Braw improvements apply to the Lumix S1 as well, the S1H and S5? Is it an improvement in the BMVA recorder hardware or software or S5II? I own a S1 and find the internal quality to be very good. How would you compare S1 with Braw to its internal recording? Also, how do you rate Braw in the 4k and 6k pockets? cheers and thanks! 🙂

As far as I'm aware, there were hardware limitations that led to limited raw support on older S series cameras not delivering each chroma channel individually. 

Also using BRAW on the older S Series you will get an image that is both oversharpened and mushy looking.

That issue doesn't exist on the Pocket 6K and S5II(x) at least.
The Pocket 6K has lots of issues with highlights and artefacts though at its second native ISO range.

I have some more good news and spoiler alert: You may want to get the paid RAW update.

BRAW is now completely fixed it seems. No more sharpening, no more filtering and mushy textures.
Instead more texture, both luma and chroma than recording internally and at least 1-2 stops of more usable latitude since the shadow areas are clean now and highlight recovery seems to give one extra clean stop of highlight range.

BRAW with highlight recovery

Internal H265/H264/ProRes

32 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

This is why you're not seeing it. A baked in LUT uses V-Log as its base picture style so it avoids the nasties that are in the regular profiles.

I never use regular profiles so I don't care. But for anyone who does want to use them then a solution is to use this method. If you're after the lower noise of regular profiles then just create a lut that pushes V-Log down by 2.66 stops. And I think you can also set metering compensation.

I agree. If you want good looking Rec709 on the S5II avoid any of the Rec709 profiles at all cost.
Use Real-Time Lut with a nice lut, preferably made for the S5II and its new colorscience and you'll get great looking results.

Right now the S1H definitely has the better image right out of camera in comparison to the S5II and you can find it below $2000 even. Selling mine for 1600€ atm, PM if interested.

The problem of the S1H is its horrific autofocus, so it's a manual focus only camera, at least for video.

Lenses I would recommend:
Sigma 28-70 F2.8 lens
Lumix F1.8 24, 35, 50 and 85mm lenses

18 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

I liked the a7iv in this

Same, color looks better and the shadows aren't green (no banding either).
Panasonic has to fix their issues with the S5II.

The regular S23 4K cDNG in Motioncam blew me away. Looks better than anything than I've ever seen from any phone, crappy and heavily processed "8K" phone included.

19 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

How does Panasonic have a perfect IQ processing formula and than mess it up upon every new release? lol

Seriously!!!

21 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

What's the story here? Is the red channel clipping above or below and is it encoded as V-gamut or only when converted to V709?

I have noticed that reds are too dark and saturated with the V709 conversion.

The red clipping is baked into V-Log. I really wonder why I don't receive pre-production models of their cameras haha.

2 hours ago, Beritar said:

Yes the issue is with the standard profiles, the difference is obvious :
 

 

However in V-Log they look very similar when sharpness and NR are set at 0 :
 

 

Will do some tests with standard soon. Right now I'm more concerned about the V-Log issues and really hope it will be investigated by Panasonic soon.

My top priority is fixing the banding, after that the red clipping and even later the sharpening and filtering.

8 hours ago, Django said:

both.

If you say so. Then again if you're so adversed to image processing then yeah just shoot in BRAW that's what its there for. In most other scenarios nobody will notice/care.

I bet with BRAW and even better ProRes RAW the color would be visible actually. The chroma filtering kills of anything in dark areas that isn't super saturated. E.g. dark blue or brown clothes turn grey, hair turns grey, skin turns grey etc. '

A processing issue that would be easy for Fuji to fix, but yet they don't care because their customers don't mind inferior products. Nobody ever puts pressure on that company.
 

Quote

Sounds very biased. S1H retailed for 4000€. Nothing special about S1/S5 IQ. They use very low bitrate h264 codecs. Have slow readout / high rolling shutter. Use image processing (NR, sharpening) like all non-RAW cameras.

*Retailed. Now you can find it around 2000€/$ in every corner of the internet.
The low bitrate Long-Gop codecs of the S1/S5 were quite superior over anything Long-Gop on the X-H2s with no obvious issues.

Also the old S series barely has sharpening if any at all shooting V-Log by default:

S1:

X-H2s at -4 sharpening:

The X-H2s uses a very similar sharpening algorithm as seen on most phones, which is not what I want my footage to look like.

The S1 on the other hand has a many times better image (internally or ext. ProRes). Externally in BRAW/ProRes RAW both are quite similar again but Fuji keeps the RS and no crop at high frame rate advantage while Panasonic has much better IBIS and slightly better low light. 

If Fuji wasn't as awful with their image processing and codecs (not ProRes), I would recommend the X-H2s as well. But at the current state it's a hell no!

Also noticed that the S1H is more prone to moire shooting BRAW.
I think it may be caused rather inferior debayering inside the BMD VA.

44 minutes ago, Django said:

ARRI (like every camera manufacturer) has extensive IQ pipeline, its the key to their whole look:

ARRI’s digital cameras produce exceptional image quality with the organic look and feel of film, delivering incredible production value at an affordable cost. Images created with any ALEXA or AMIRA camera contain all the ingredients for best overall image quality: large and therefore sensitive photosites, high dynamic range, sharp and natural images, high sensitivity, natural color reproduction, excellent color separation, and the absence of artifacts.

To create such outstanding images, all components of the imaging chain are custom designed by our engineers and carefully tuned for optimal performance, starting with the optical low pass filter, the CMOS sensor, the imaging electronics, and the image processing software.

 

Fuji has their own pipeline which starts with the X-Trans CFA. Like anything it has its pros & cons. Again no AA filter so very sharp/detailed image with no moiré. And again the whole chroma reduction thing is overblown imo with XH2S in 6K ProRes HQ. I'm get excellent tonality/skin tone grades from the Flog2 files I've been testing:

Nice neutral organic image with a lot of detail allowing you to punch-in without image falling apart. Of course every setting, lighting, grading pipeline and lens choice matters. The scene above is shot on a DZOfilm Vespid 40mm T2.1 cine lens. Very light grade here with just Flog2 to ARRI conversion and slight curve adjustment.

YMMV of course, to each their own but with the right lens, the right codec, the right grade I find the XH2S IQ to be among the best, for the type of subjects, lighting and framing I'm likely to do. Could be a whole different thing with other variables.

Is her hair grey or dark brown?


Anyway, compared the X-H2s against the S1H and the S1H ran circles around it. The X-H2S simply cannot differentiate between fine hue changes especially in darker areas because of its over cranked spatial chroma filtering.
With BRAW the X-H2s was as good as the S1H. It's simply just a processing related issue.


Speaking of processing issues, the S5II banding issue is not PDAF- nor sensor-related like some were suggesting, the S1H internal V-Log is almost as good as RAW on the S5II, while V-Log on the S5II is quite awful.


TLDR: If you want a great image without compromises for around $2000, get the S1H/S1/S5 or Pocket 6K and avoid the rest.


For comparison:
S5II RAW (DNG in Resolve)

S5II int./ext ProRes V-Log

S1H int. V-Log

On 3/22/2023 at 11:12 PM, Django said:

The chroma smoothing thing is real but overblown imo. Its a pixel peeper thing, in real life scenarios it rarely matters.

Skin tones when shot properly are amazing. The 4K120p is amazing. Better than the class leading A7SIII.

Here is some XH2S 4K120p footage shot in 8-bit 264 standard baked profile: 

Yes the image is sharp but hard to beat such a clean rich detailed 4K120p with no moiré. Any other Bayer sensor camera and that fabric would be moiré artifacting like crazy. And that's in the lowest 8-bit setting..

Its easy to pick apart issues but you also got to know how to play cameras to their advantages.

I prefer softening a sharp detailed image then the reverse. Just pop on a vintage / cine lens and something like a Pro-Mist filter and you'll already get a much softer image.. add some film grading, halation etc on the very chunky robust ProRes codec and you've got yourself a very cinematic image with film like grain:

 

Again to each their own.
I would rather have an image without cranked chroma noise reduction reducing tonality to a pulp especially when shooting log, badly affecting skin, foliage, dark areas etc. nor super heavy sharpening leading to quite heavy amounts of noise that an optical diffusion filter cannot reduce btw. The lower amount of processing, the better the image. Ask RED and ARRI.

Heavy chroma NR doesn't really affect baked Rec709/sRGB profiles that much, Log on the other hand suffers terribly.

The X-H2s may have 4K 120p without a crop and super low rolling shutter but awful IBIS, autofocus and rather mediocre video quality unless you'd shoot external raw which thankfully doesn't decrease dynamic range since the 14 bit ADC video mode only seems to sample noise in shadows anyway.

 

On 3/23/2023 at 8:52 AM, Beritar said:

The S5II also uses more sharpening and details smoothing than before (S5 and S1), less in V-Log and HLG but still noticeable when pixel peeping.
I "pixel peep" a lot because I use 6K to pan or zoom in post and with most profiles the 6K of the S1 really looks like a burst of raw photos and the S5II looks more like a burst of JPEGs with in camera sharpening and NR bumped up. And at this point even my old A7III (while noisier) keeps better details than my S5II in 4K.

Chroma and luma detail (in V-Log) look pretty much the same than on my S1H if not even better.
V-Log is the only profile with the banding problem though, even HLG is clean in shadows.

Can't say anything about the sRGB profiles since I would never use them.

On 3/21/2023 at 6:59 PM, Django said:

I've been messing around with ProRes HQ footage from XH2S and find the IQ brilliant. Super chunky robust files that grade beautifully. In fact I'd be tempted to say its the nicest IQ I've seen from a mirrorless. YMMV.

S5II was rather disappointing, the tiny h265 files just feel paper thin when pushing the grade. S5IIx with ProRes will surely be much better.

To each their own. 
To me the heavy chroma filtering when shooting internally is an absolute no go. Skin looks lifeless and so does any kind any kind of foliage. That's only one problem next to the insane amount of oversharpening the cameras forces on your footage. 

The image lacks tonality and color separation and looks thin as nothing I've ever seen before, something that cannot be fixed in post. Fuji also really needs to work on their AF and IBIS.

The S5II on the other hand has no issues with that but has banding in shadows which hopefully can be fixed via a firmware update.

Btw. external ProRes on the S5II looks identical in every single way to the internal H265/H264 codecs, there's not a single difference in IQ even when pushing color a to the extremes.

13 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I like the written blogs, there are not many like yours. They are often worth reading whereas the videos get drowned out in the Youtube torrent.

There are some great options out there. I’m thinking of selling my S1, which I really like apart from the weight and AF, to get a S5mk2 for those very reasons. I really love my Panasonics, the only thing I have been missing was the AF (old eyes) and that seems to have been solved. I’ll keep my S5, even though I prefer the S1, as it makes more sense having 2 cameras the use the same batteries and cards.

Friends have the Canon R6 and it’s a great camera too. The R6mk2 looks even better other than the price.

The FX30 looks very interesting if you are only doing video although I can’t say I have enjoyed using Sonys.

 

Keep in mind that the S5II has wildly different color than the S1 and S5, which both looked identical.
Also the S5II has some image-processing related flaws which still need to be fixed. I'll hear from a person who is close to engineers soon hopefully wether this issue will be solved or not.

If not I would highly recommend looking out for the R6II or even Pocket 6K or just staying with the S1 if video quality is important to you. Skip any Sony (unless you can afford the A1 or FX6) or Fuji cameras.

The banding artefacts are quite obvious in darker areas on the S5II, so in case you intend to do some lowkey style shooting you will run into problems. Some examples:
https://www.cined.com/panasonic-lumix-s5-ii-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/ (latitude tests)
 

Also seen here, red and green banding, similar to GH4 back in the days, both 10 bit 422 and external ProRes.

15 hours ago, Django said:

Yes that's because XH2S uses a stacked sensor capable of 14-bit readout under 30fps. Going above or using Flog1 drops the readout to 12-bit delivering lower RS. 4K120p goes as low as 3.9ms.

If you add to that 6K open-gate and chunky ProRes codec options, you have one of the most solid IQs in mirrorless.

This to me makes XH2S best bang for buck camera for ultimate IQ.

It has the worst tonality and color separation of any camera I've tried over the past 4 years. To be fair I never tried the X-T4 and 3, which are considered even worse in that regard. To add the image is also heavily oversharpened in comparison to even Sony cameras.

Also the Long-Gop codecs have heavy 1-sec interval flickering and the All-I codecs are impossible to edit on M2 Max machines even, which means you basically have to shoot ProRes.

No issues with external BRAW though, all the color information is definitely there from the sensor. The internal image processing is just awful but once bypassed you'll get a nice image. With ProRes RAW the image is even better.

Dynamic range with the 12 bit readout for external RAW is pretty much identical to the 14 bit readout, you won't get more than 12 stops either way. Only advantage over other cameras is that the X-H2s still has is its fast readout.

3 hours ago, Chxfgb said:

We had this topic in 2015 about 4K. Very similar responses i.e. anti-4K.

Well, I'm not anti-8K. But the 8K on the S23 is so bad (barely any better than the awful 4K output) that motion cam's 4K cDNG runs circles around it.

You can process the RAW output to 4K H264 in Rec709 and it will look many times better than anything else ever shot on a phone still, or import cDNG into Resolve and go even further, do HDR in ACES e.g. 

On 3/2/2023 at 4:16 PM, Beritar said:

I don't think the issue is Phase Detect because V-Log on the S5II (while sharper than before) has not the insane sharpening and chroma noise reduction that the standard profiles have.
Moreover, nor my A7III and IV smooth details like this at low ISO and yet they use Phase detect.
There are just bad processing going on internaly on the standard profiles with the S5II.

Also cameras such as the Canon R6II or Sony FX6/FX9 don't have any of these crazy NR and oversharpening issues despite using Phase AF.

It's not a hardware issue but an image processing flaw.

On 3/1/2023 at 1:17 AM, PannySVHS said:

What about Vlog for the S5 II and GH6? @deezid cheers

sorry about the late answer.
Not sure about the S5II's banding issues in dark areas. Waiting on former updates by Panasonic on firmware updates before I'd recommend this camera.

Unlike oversharpening there's nothing that can be done to hide banding artefacts.

Get an Android phone that supports motion cam.
Shoot 4K cDNG and upscale in post.

The S23 actually does an incredible job with motion cam.

Will look at least 10x better than any garbage like 4K and 8K phone video, iPhone ProRes included.

On 2/27/2023 at 7:48 PM, Beritar said:

Another test between the S5II and the S5, this time with the Natural Profile (640 ISO) :

 

I'm not a fan of extreme sharpening but it's not really an issue if it can be dialed down enough, the important thing is to keep details.
The S5II uses a lot of sharpening at -5 but it also uses a lot of details filtering (look at the orange background) ,and of course adding sharpness in post can't help to recover details.
I think I never seen an imaqe quality so bad from a Panasonic camera of this price (V-Log has less issues but this is not the always the best profile for some situations).

That's what's also called the smartphone processing approach, apply tons of spatial and temporal filtering and another layer of heavy sharpening to compensate.