Lammy

Gonna have to disagree on this one again.

O Russell and George Clooney and the Producers and Warner Brothers haven't all worked together since. They obviously had wanted to finish the film (whereas other films some talent simply walk away). And there was a 5 year gap for O Russell. 

In this parallel you suggest, yeah it would be nice if Top Gear could finish it's last two recordings with Clarkson as a proper send off.

Christian Bale, while bordering on verbal assault, he never actually punched the Shane Hurlbert and just ranted at him about "unprofessionalism" and the lights lol. 

Let's take this further... the director of Midnight Rider makes good films I think. But do you think that film should have been finished? Nah... him and his crew were idiots.

There's more to life than just appeasing fans and the money train.

Not when on the BBC's payroll  Funny GQ awards. Let's not forget his Osama bin Laden dress up sacking was on MTV. How humuliating to get sacked... from MTV lol.

Mmm yeah. Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross took their suspension from the BBC with more dignity. And those two didn't even hit someone, allegedly.

Guido Fawkes and Clarkson supporters driving a Tank around London to protest for Clarkson's re-instatement?! WTF. Fandom is CRAZY* with this one.

*yeah, I'm aware that is also politically incorrect to say  

What did the BBC ever really have that was risky? Eh up, Downton Abbey is ITV/PBS innit?

Hum off the top of my head in recent months I have enjoyed The Casual Vacancy, Doctor Who, Live at the Apollo, The Trip, An Idiots Guide, Weekly Wipe, Graham Norton Show, Louis Theroux documentaries. The BBC Films division has some gems in there too. Yeeeah but I still prefer NetFlix and HBO.

Everyone is now twisting each other's arguments to try and be "right". And yeah we are arguing in vague terms. Clarkson isn't really the best example to use for creative risk... because he's consistently working in the mainstream uncensored. It's actually creatively safe to play on the majority opinions and stereotypes. He's not being persecuted by the people, the Government, or the BBC here. He's just suspended for being horrible to a colleague and the BBC are covering their own ass in fear of cover up accusations or if Oisin presses charges. The rumours of the crew pressuring Clarkson to own up is telling.

Jeremy 'The Sun' Clarkson's rivalry with Piers 'Daily Mirror' Morgan is funny. And I would love to have seen the charity fight between them as two consenting combatants. It is far less serious than if he punched Oisin without provocation. 

Errrrgh and back to the above argument:

I don't necessarily disagree with your points Will. I'm sure we both agree there that should be more measures in place to allow and nurture talent from under represented demographics. I am all for positive action (not exactly positive discrimination). And I hate it when the privileged abuse quotas with tokenism and 1 dimensional characters too. Have you seen TV Tropes? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RaceLift 

We are in a creative industry and that is supposed to mesh the way we perceive society, art, and money. Seinfield would not be the same show if Will Smith was in it, you're right. Louis CK's work would not be as well informed if he didn't work with Chris Rock all those years either. And where would Top Gear be without Jeremy Clarkson? Would they be worse shows for it? Well that's up to society to decide. 

Andrew - no where did I state you were racist nor did I imply you are racist. On the contrary, I said you wasn't - and I only said you don't care and your uses of terms are politically incorrect.  You have no legal action on me here.  I will say if you want to have these kinds of discussions, censorship and banning is not the way. Try not to be so insecure and grow a thicker skin when debating. Or don't bother posting half baked articles at all.

This provocation isn't really constructive, bro! Is it really that hard just to simply say gossip? Not "women's gossip" or "old wives tales" of course, that'd be just as bad and out-dated.

To be clear, I am not offended, and I do not think you hate Chinese people. But it just on a fundamental level that you simply don't give a fuck lol. And that's absolutely OK, and within your rights to be portrayed like that.

Also:

Jobs aren't actually lost due to this suspension right now. People are still paying the TV license and it gets distributed. Top Gear has already wrapped this series and crews moves onto other projects. So we're only talking about hypothetical future jobs?

In fact, we could argue that more jobs would be created if Jeremy Clarkson leaves - because there may still be Top Gear on BBC, AND POSSIBLY Cars with Jeremy Clarkson on Sky 

This new article from Andrew is much better than the last article on it. 

The thing about this is ideally, BBC want to keep Clarkson. Director-General Tony Hall is a fan. I don't think Clarkson is being disproportionately punished at all - getting suspended for the time being for verbal/physical abuse is I can agree with. If he gets taken to rehab, sensitivity training and whatnot, and settles with Oisin - even better for all involved. 

I will disagree about the public mob shaming thing. It's a two-pronged, yes the people can band together to do real positive change, or real negative change.  It really depends on what's percieved to be at stake and the culture. In many other a time and place, Oisin may have had to commit suicide for "failing" his senior.

The PR advisor makes a joke about white entitlement- that's just unwise and the wrong platform. It'd be like replacing the BBC News at 6 with Brass Eye - people will misunderstand unless they're given the proper rules and context, which unfortunately they didn't because of the rubbish that is a twitter retweet. Actually a lot of people complained about Brass Eye even though it was shown late night on Channel 4 anyway (but I'm sure less than if it was on prime time).

Critics and fans keep each other in line with standards all the time. Jeremy may say something, and James May or the Producer may go "Ah mate, that's a little out of line. Let's cut it". Steve Coogan did it on the show and in an article. Anyway I've said all I got to say on my opinion the creative brand of humour check.

I do agree with most of what Russell Brand is saying on the matter, which is pretty much what Clarkson was talking about in his Sun article on the individual old attitude and dinosaur thing.

About cars... come on guys - have you looked at the streets and highways and thought how ugly it is? It pollutes my eyes seeing how inconsistent the designs of all cars are! And the smell. And the amount of resources used to create a car and to run a car. While a car is essential for most people in the country, it's really a luxury for everyone else. Better public transport, more walking and cycling is always good for the environment and everyone's health!

Being a comedian can be just as valid as us filmmakers ranting at length in this thread  Just try and give his documentary a watch and tell me what you think.

For Clarkson, I wonder what he expected when he reported the incident? Carry on as usual? A formal announcement that Jeremy Clarkson is retiring and wishing the best? No one would know the real deal... well, not until a few years later in a biography tell all book.

This BBC suspension could be a blessing in disguise for fans of him. It gives him a strong chance to come back and to hear the actual story soon.

If you want to argue about the easily offended and creativity, this video by Stewart Lee and religious protesters on the BBC is worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9EUe8jNr6o 

​

I'm on team underdog "inept colleague" Oisin. Clarkson's Sun article about being 'an old dinosaur' really reads like an admission of guilt. Let's see what happens these next few days...

No need to censor/ban because no one is abusing Andrew nor accusing him of racism. Only that he is turning a blind eye to the actions of Jeremy Clarkson (on and off character).

See guys, this is why we don't discuss politics at the dinner table!

"It's justified because Clarkson makes a lot of money. He was drunk and stressed, who hasn't messed up? BBC owe me my beloved Top Gear!  PS: Political correctness fault, just a laugh guys eh lolool! " 

I like Andrew's camera reviews. Saved me lots of money, I'm grateful thanks. Just gonna disagree with the article and the ethics here though. 

​No, Andrew, I'm not clueless. Of course the way the Argentinians reacted by throwing stones at them and threatening their lives were wrong. I don't believe in disproportionate and violent retaliation so please don't assume otherwise. It's just unwise to do that. And if, like the above example, he went to Brixton and said 'Nigger' for 'a joke' and was killed... I'd be upset too. And I'd wonder if he liked Die Hard 3 too much or was coerced.

If you are trying to put Clarkson on the same pedestel as Je Suis Charlie and the Persecution of Scientists from Galileo to Turing... just no.

Yeah I bloody love Louis CK and all of his lines are all pretty hilarious in context. The routine of 'Faggot, Cunt, Nigger' watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NAUgCm-3Tc and it's edgy and holds a sense of culpability. 

Don't get me wrong - I don't think darker Louis CK or Chris Morris' brand of comedy is BBC2 prime time style... (we'll leave that for Charlie Brooker and Armando Iannuchi). Clarkson just messes up every odd year. Be nicer for you if he stayed with the Beeb but if you want him totally uncut and "creatively free" with no restrictions (actually there's an argument that restrictions help creativity...),... he may have to go elsewhere.

​Perfectly said. I would kind of watch that channel late night actually... much more than Babestation. They should let us call in and interact with Clarkson.

​All of my favourite people are still making some creative, edgy, stuff. 

Even Jeremy Clarkson is still around despite final warnings way after with Argentina and his twitter posts. I bet he'll come out of this suspension alright especially as I doubt Oisin would press charges for verbal abuse. 

Katie Hopkins. Josie Cunningham. All have perfect outlet. Leigh Francis is still working fine today.  Dapper Laughs got rid because he caved in, and he was just a shittier version of Keith Lemon.

This "political correctness"  killing spontaneous creative is an imaginary problem, and an easy excuse to cover up their own inadequacies.  Just step up yo game and be better.

O'Russell and Scott Rudin are the Producers and they are known to be far more outspoken and brash in their methods. They make great films and have tension and all that, sure.

Remember when George Clooney had an actual physical altercation with O'Russell and said they'd never work with each other again? Could say the same for Clarkson and Cohen- who knows!

​But you know I have a mental health disorder and I need to take medication for it? Below the belt mate!

Actually I'm just fucking with you. I do this often when it's ad hominem time in an argument.

Not quite the same context. There's a difference between a scripted sketch and real life. Here we're discussing the artistic merits and controversies of their work. I never said Saint Coogan can't offend. Try not to change the goal posts to the forum now. Oooh

​I like these discussions. I do not believe Ferrino represents lazy stereotypes of Europeans... he's a bit more than just a tan and that moustache and dance moves require skill! If you wanted to make a point about a fine line, I'd probably use Borat as an example. Then again, it's so ridiculous I don't seriously think Kazah's beat their women and have sex with their goats right? 

And yes of course you can think it as offensive... so you are correct in your interpretation in that regard. Doesn't make me a hypocrite if I find Clarkson harder to defend.

​Trolling is one of the most addictive and fun things to do on da intawebs. 

Oh man tiger blood Charlie Sheen is awesome. Clarkson's brand can be charming and watchable. I like how opinionated he gets about cars, the childish glee and competitiveness, and his general grumpiness.  It's a shame he crosses the line sometimes (both on and off camera). I had a similar feeling of unease with the Mel Gibson fiasco-  just... dang man.

​OK - let's play the artistic comedy battle. Seriously? By we- I mean obviously myself, the fans, and the actual comedian that did it. First, I don't think there's anything inherently racist about applying make-up to look like another race. Disingenuous, maybe... could it have gone to an actual person of that race... maybe. Ben Kingsley did it in Gandhi. Robert Downey Jr is great in Tropic Thunder. Some minstrel shows can be enlightening, although it is totally unpleasant if the show is simply a white dude blacked up acting stupid with no story or context. ANYWAY:

Tony Ferrino does not come across as sleazy or stupid to me- but  a parody of the cheesy dance offs we see imported from Portuguese TV. Always so smooth with his dance moves and women. It's actually ahead of the times by 20 years because we see that on Strictly Come Dancing now.

The Fast Show does another thing similar where everyone has a tan and says Scorcio during the weather report. Because ya know, it's always hot abroad.

Chris Morris's Fur Q Uzi Lover, pretty spot on with gun and gangsta culture. "cunt bitch, cunt bitch mothafucka uzi lover uzu like a metal dick in my hand, magazine like a testicle gland" <-- that condenses a lot of mysogynistic and violently nonsensical lyrics in a succinct way.

As for the SNL Japanese Office,  Steve Carell all yellow faced actually took the time to learn Japanese and the joke is that there are remakes of Japanese shows when really the Office isn't one of them. 

Borat explores interesting reactions of how racist and uncomfortable people's reactions are to him.

Notice that all of my examples had a lot going on and a satirical element and a self awareness to the absurdity of it all. I do not feel I am hypocritical at all when I say that there is a degree of humour listed above that is just more sophisticated than what Clarkson is dishing out.

Is that good enough for you? We've gone on a huge tangent already but I had to stress it out. How do you defend Jeremy Clarkson's use of slope?  That he is playing a caricature of a very bigoted and opinionated old man? Even so, the humour is never laughing at his portrayal or our reaction to the portrayel, but always directly against his subject. That's just plain bullying mate. I'm not saying it's entirely his fault, it's definitely the writers/Producers and BBC's fault too for not thoroughly making sure the content was accountable. Also you can read Steve Coogan's article on Top Gear here: http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2011/feb/05/top-gear-offensive-steve-coogan 

​Actually no I'm not, my next hypothetical of "Fuck you to Danny Cohen", who we knew he had tensions with, was far more likely. Clarkson didn't have to tell the BBC. But thanks for the personal attack, bro. Stay classy.

​Oh right... so Jeremy Clarkson only called him the usual "motherfucking useless shit cunt nonce puff nigger slope lazy mexican that drives like a woman"? Just another day for Jezza then! Hahaha but seriously... verbal abuse is not acceptable in the real world. 

It's still incredibly suspicious that Clarkson himself reported what happened to the BBC days before contracts were finalised. Is the guy trying to negotiate better contracts via manipulation of the system and foreign markets? A big fuck you to Danny Cohen and going out in a bang? Hmm... gotta wait for more facts to appear and what Oisin says...

Is that a yes to your unconditional love for Jeremy Clarkson? He really shouldn't be let off because he makes a lot of money and is an 'artist'. I think transparency is good. The BBC should not shut up, and neither should the vocal critics. Also not a fan of the commercially driven cynical attitude as Philip Bloom pointed out.  Surprised you are to be honest...

I bet you if indeed Oisin was assaulted (verbal or physical) , and we polled the public, it wouldn't just be the 'minority' that would agree with the BBC's suspension of Clarkson!

Or do you mean yes you do pay TV License? Because you should get a refund dude as you don't need to pay it. You still get to eat the cake and enjoy Jeremy Clarkson! Me, I'm a little bitter as only Netflix is worth my cash these days IMO.

​We can actually defend that. We can also defend Ricky Gervais' skits with yellowfacing on SNL's Office Japanese. And we can defend Sasha Baron Cohen's stuff too. Edgy humour but there's no hypocrisy going on here. They genuinely do have the moral high ground as artists because their humour is defensible. 

Jeremy Clarkson's level of artistry is closer to Katie Hopkins than the above mentioned!

Andrew, it sounds like you have unconditional love for Jeremy Clarkson   

"If you don't like the tone, don't watch it" wont cut it in this argument.

As I said earlier I find Clarkson, entertaining in small doses, though he does say a lot of dumb things. I can see Steve Coogan (haha or Frankie Boyle) taking over and I'd watch that. If Mark Kermode decided to branch into cars instead of films, defo on my watch list too! Top Gear has always had rough patches with the show since it began in 1977. It can re-invent itself. I disagree with you that Clarkson is better than 99% of presenters.

I'd rather my £145 license fee per year go to more shows that I actually love though. Do you still pay TV License there in Berlin, Andrew?

Well, yeah political correctness can be abused and misused by people that don't think.  I think it can be confusing with censorship, hate speech and political dissents here. I'm actually against censorship. I am all for transparency. Jeremy Clarkson has already gotten away with and apologised for saying 'nigger' so it's irrelevant really. I don't think any of us are seriously venting for his blood because of 'special needs Ferrari' comment. He can say whatever he wants. Then we can conclude, with evidence, his persona lacks manners and thoughtfulness. That's the right of free speech. And now in real life with possibly punching someone? Geez...

Anyway the framework of this conversation is that the money winner Jeremy Clarkson's is not above the law. I think K-Robert made a great point, lol a percentage of his income... well people do get fined for assault I guess? 

Presbytis, like I said earlier it's all about context... there's nothing wrong with desiring equal rights and a more fair world. The methods to do that however, can be questioned. Your example is an issue of a manipulative Politician more than anything else. If, as you say, the "white guilt voters" were directly told "I will change our flag or make sure every child will not go hungry" - I'm pretty sure anyone would side for the latter and question why that Politician ever had to give that choice.

As for Andrew's statements. well, yeah he seems to be having 3 tangents here, all of which are off-base. Maybe we should have a separate articles for his opinions on money, criticism, and creativity? This actually just boils down to Jeremy Clarkson getting into a "fracus" with Oisin Tymon. If we find out that he didn't punch him, or didn't threaten to punch him, and it was just a shouty whinge or something that got out of hand, then I don't see any reason why BBC can't air the 2 last episodes and keep working with Clarkson. If it turns out that Clarkson did do what he allegedly did, then the BBC are put in an awkward situation and I don't think Clarkson is above getting away with it this time.

I am still deeply concerned about the posts saying "I'm all for better representation of women, ethnic backgrounds etc" yet agreeing that a "vocal minority" should "shut up". Hahaha oh dear guys.

The thing about the BBC is that it has to stick to being fair because everyone pays the TV License fee. Heaven forbid if it turns like the Fox network! That has terrible things going on... [although I do admit I love shows like 24 and House that have come from it... the news and bigotry is massive]

Great post Dan. You've changed my mind that the show could still carry on without Jeremy Clarkson. Although as far as I'm aware, the show is a very family unit so it'd be a total revamp. I would absolutely love Frankie Boyle presenting! He's pretty much got the balance of edgy and funny really well. Plus his Knightrider sketch makes me laugh out loud thinking about it.

I do agree the timing is suspicious. How public was this fight with the Producer? 

Anyway Jeremy Clarkson is Top Gear, and I don't doubt he can find an equally successfully stint on other more commercial oriented networks. Remember when Jonathan Ross switched to ITV?  

​

'Politically correct' is used in a pejorative sense here... it's simply a term used for caring about other people's feelings and minimising unnecessary offence.

In your example, you say your country is wasting money on changing a flag, when it could be used to feed starving children, right? That's already a lot of assumptions on the way budgets are made. Why does it have to be one or the other? I'm sure there are other ways money is being wasted too? And let's assume that you are right that the nation is dipping in their child poverty fund to change a flag... that isn't caring about people, that's just gross misallocation of funding! Just like when North Korea starves their country increase military and build fake streets to look good for outsiders!

The only broader topic that I can gleam from Andrew's post is nothing to do with "pandering to PC culture" - his only valid points are  "TOP GEAR IS A REALLY SUCCESFUL SHOW THAT MAKES A LOT OF MONEY" and "I LIKE TOP GEAR". 

​Agreed.

I believe the line is drawn if it can be defensible to say or do it. If the Producer was punching Clarkson, then Clarkson is within his rights to defend and punch back.

Given the right context, anyone can say the word "nigga" (yes, I'm typing it out because "the N word" sounds worse in my opinion). White comedians like Louis CK and Ricky Gervais say it to, arguably and can be defended, to great effect. Jeremy Clarkson is indefensible and unfunny when he's using it to choose cars though...

And totally, punching someone for having a cold steak of their own fault is baaaad.