ajay

6 hours ago, gelaxstudio said:

It looks like 10bit won't help carrying out all the DR？

I'm not sure 10bit vs 8bit is necessarily a factor for DR. It could be, but I think how the manufacturer implements the codec is more important. It does make a difference for color information and how rapidly footage falls apart while editing in post. If you look at the footage from the 8-bit codec from the Canon C200, it has DR that's definitely better than the GH5/s and Sony mirrorless cameras @8 bit, so there are other factors at play.

Sony's 8-bit SLOG-2 footage holds together better than Panasonic's 8-bit VLOG-L. I would never use VLOG-L @8-bit, only at 10-bit. Yet SLOG-2 edits quite well with only 8-bits. (SLOG3 is a different story. I'm not sure why Sony even puts SLOG-3 on 8-bit codec cameras.) You really have to try out each camera's codecs to see how well they handle post-editing and DR.

DpReview is attempting to test camera's codec performance. The industry really needs a comprehensive test that compares these cameras fairly on a level playing field.

There's a short clip that dpreview did comparing the GH5s vs the A7SII with the GH5s in HLG using Nick Driftwood's LUT. The GH5s does seem to hold the highlights better and shows slightly better DR.

23 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but if you run an external recorder you could use ProRes if you edit on a Apple.

I believe it only outputs at HD and not 4k, plus external recorders make things a pain when outdoors lugging stuff down/up a trail. That's kinda the problem with the FS5. BTW the EVA-1 doesn't natively come with a viewfinder. Most of the time when shooting wildlife, I'm using a viewfinder.

I really don't need raw, just a compromise of some sorts with a somewhat greater DR. I've seen a few examples HLG with the A7III that look pretty good.

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah I agree it is probably due to be updated, but you know they will raise the price and will not be able to find a used one.

I don't understand why your 1DX mk II can't get the job done with say a Atomos Flame to be able to use the video aids on it, False color, WF, Zebras, on and on? Man that is a camera to die for with DPAF, form factor, long lens use etc.

Regarding the 1DXII. if I expose to save most of the highlights, it crushes the blacks. I have tried both EOSHD and Miller C-Log profiles and although they help, the dynamic range is not that good IMO. I have done tests with the GH5 and found the GH5 to have slightly better DR. From an autofocus tracking ability it is King!

21 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Is this a hobby? A profession? Why must you shoot in harsh lighting anyway? Just curious.

It's a combination. Most of my wildlife footage is a hobby and occasionally gets used in documentaries. I also do promotional stuff and that's indoors most of the time and I don't worry as much about DR for that.

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Are you shooting 4k material??  And the Canon C200 sounds like a bad way for you to go Codec wise. The normal codec is not broadcast ready, and the Raw is a total hog data wise. For what you shoot seems like neither way would work out. God only know what the middle Codec will be. Probably 8 bit, and I would hope at least 50mbps.

The EVA1 would be a better bet. How about a used Sony FS5, or FS7?

I shoot in 4k but most ends up as HD. Yea, I know the C200's goofyness with their codecs...frustrating. I did try out an FS7 once with some of my longer lenses and it was just too BIG. I thought about the FS5 but never tried one out. Maybe I should? I wonder if that camera will be replaced soon? Seems long in the tooth.

5 minutes ago, mkabi said:

But, the question... is Golden hour what your looking for? Meaning.... is that the situation you would want all day long? Or do you feel that you want maximum amount of light such that shadows are not affected - Golden hour is affecting shadows???

Golden hour is not what I am looking for in a camera. It's just that without wider dynamic range, you end up giving up something (lights or darks) in high dynamic lighting scenarios. At least the way I perceive things with these cameras.

I know a lot of people did not like the fact that the GH5s did not have sensor stabilization, but I was more disappointed that the dynamic range of the GH5s was only marginally better than the GH5. The sensor has got 14 stops, yet VLOG-L and the other baked-in profiles do not take advantage of what the sensor can do. I'm sure Panasonic, Sony and the rest of the manufactures do not want to eat into their higher-end cameras, but I would gladly pay an extra $1k for well-designed mirrorless camera that offers 13 stops of dynamic range. It would be a pleasure to use such a camera.

For the work that I do, I often shoot with very large telephoto lenses. Besides smaller mirrorless cameras, the only camera that comes to mind that ergonomically fits the bill for me is the Canon C200, but then I'm looking at a 10k investment by the time I buy Cfast chips and batteries.

Maybe I should just wait and see what the A7SIII has to offer whenever that camera is introduced.

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

I recorded in VLogL and had no trouble getting good highlight roll-off. Have you used this camera?

No, I haven't and that's why I started the thread. I wanted to hear from those in-the-know. I have thought about renting one before I buy. Thanks.

24 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Have you looked into N.D. Filters and/or Variable N.D. filters?

Have you looked into N.D. Filters and/or Variable N.D. filters? Yes. I do use them but not sure if this would solve the issue. It has to do with shooting in sunlight with shadows. I can't always shoot during the golden hour when light is more subdued. Thanks.

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

In the end, I would just go by the best practitioners, like Filippo Chiesa, who understands lighting and grading.

For sure, Flippo really makes the GH5s shine. If you can control the lighting, you can certainly create scenes in which make this camera a great choice. When shooting outdoors unfortunately you have little control other than shooting slightly underexposed to prevent highlight clipping. It's a tricky scenario at best.

I do wonder if shooting in the GH5's HLG might be a better choice than VLOG-L for brightly lit scenarios? Or...just deal with Sony's ergonomic and crappy menus and go that route.

Thanks to all that have responded.

10 minutes ago, Vladimir said:

• bmmcc - 13 stops, raw, decent low-light with sb

• a7xx - ~13 stops, but a lot of work with cg (less for daylight), good ('best' for s-models) low-light

• x-h1 - 12 stops with eterna profile ( better colors to start with, whole 0-100 range for storing data, easier to use in low-light), good low-light with sb option, and from my experience with x-t2 its easier to protect highlights (codec stores good amount of shadow details)

 BMMCC...I forgot about that one. I will re-investigate. Thank you.

I'm looking for input here and hopefully not start some kind of a war of opinions of which camera is best.

Here's my scenario. I've been filming for a few years now using the Canon 1DX Mark II and a GH5. I do primarily outdoor filming of nature and quite often I am faced with harsh lighting conditions.  I also do not have a budget to purchase a camera such as the C200 and I do occasionally need to shoot in low light too. Also, form factor matters to me. Big-Ass cameras such as Black Magic's "Ursa Mini" just won't work with long telephoto lenses. (Thought about looking for a used model, but not good size-wize.)

Since January, I have been on the fence regarding the GH5s. I see some examples in which highlight roll-off looks pretty good but many others in which it looks no better than the GH5. Low-light looks good, but it's that highlight roll-off (possibly lack of dynamic range) that keeps me from purchasing one.

And there are the others...The Sony A7III looks rather temping. Although it is 8-bit, Slog2 (A7III) looks better to me than Vlog-L (GH5s) at least in high-dynamic, outdoor scenarios. And then there's the X-H1 which looks better as well regarding dynamic range and highlight roll-off.

Maybe I'm just being too picky for cameras in this price range, but it's driving me nuts. Please note, I have great respect for the GH5 and GH5s. I think they are great cameras and take fantastic footage but not so sure about contrasty lighting conditions.

Thoughts?

58 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

ts meant for people using seriously, seriously, seriously long telephoto lenses normally but if you have a Windows tablet (and some gaffa tape), you can roll your own c-mount RAW cinema camera with that sensor in it for under £800 with this

I wonder what frame rates you could obtain using USB 3.0 as your connection to a laptop? That would be slick if you could get RAW footage from this camera at 30 fps, but I doubt it.

21 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

2) Of course, there is still room for internal 10 bit recording and/or say 4k/60 but I am not convinced given all the overheating problems that Sony (and actually pretty much everyone else has had) in recent years, that Sony can provide that with a FF sensor...

I agree. If Sony has overheating problems with 8-bit, 30p it's hard to believe they will be able to provide 10-bit anything without problems unless they go to a larger form factor with better heat sink ability.

I'll bet there are more wildlife/bird enthusiasts than professional sports photographers who are considering moving over to Sony. Sony's 400mm 2.8 lens is critical if Sony plans to woo over that crowd.

I had the A7RIII for a few weeks but especially with an adapter, the camera body is a tad too small. Knuckles get in the way of the lens adapter. The body is also not well balanced with heavier lenses. I woman wedding photographer said she was getting severe hand cramps from shooting with the smaller body all day.

If you are using the camera on a tripod, I guess it doesn't matter but one should at least consider how it balances and how it feels. Adding a battery grip would probably help balance it better.

With that said, Sony is going to sell a boatload of A7III's.

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Also a 1Dx II owner and for my usage for video I would never trade 4k 60p, 120fps and DPAF for C-Log and a better HD (super35). The rolling shutter of the 1Dx II is also better than the 1Dc. Most people that I know that went from 1dc to 1dx II they prefer the 1dx II due to better features.... If only canon would have added C-Log to the 1Dx II....

 

Also a 1DXII owner, I agree with gt3rs. Wish it had C-Log, but the other features make it a better camera.

Canon's main strength is DPAF and to purposely remove it from 4k is ... vintage Canon. I truly believe they sit around in meetings discussing how they are going to cripple their next camera. I would have much rather seen this camera w/o the crippling lack of DPAF, ridiculous crop factor and heftier battery for $250 more.

Why do I keep hoping Canon will wake up? This is a lesson in futility.

Well, if anything this thread makes me feel better in the fact there are probably many of us waiting for that perfect hybrid camera.

3 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

Thank you and I appreciate that, also understand that I'm not put up to anything I say, this is my impression.  I didn't see two stops either, the only thing I noticed was a more pleasing rolloff.  Probably comes out to 1/2 stop but for me it's in the right spot.  I don't need much more, I just want that smooth rolloff...I got that in this footage but not really ever with the GH5.  

In producing "The Middle Path" did you change any of the defaults such as highlights/shadows or knee adjustments? V-Log L?

20 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

I won't be doing any such tests but I'm sure someone will.  You don't need to take anyone's word for it though, plenty of footage out there using the native ISO values.

Yes, plenty of footage with native ISO values, but not side-by-side under harsh lighting conditions. It's the only way that you can potentially see the differences in dynamic range and highlight roll-off. If its not side-by-side, the results are subjective.

Please understand Luke, no disrespect to your fine work. If anyone can get the best out of these cameras it is YOU.

My hope is the GH5s will bridge the gap between the GH5 and the EVA-1. I'm just not convinced yet that it is offering much else other than excellent low-light performance w/o IBIS. I was hoping for a least one stop better dynamic range and so far I am seeing maybe 1/2 stop at best over the GH5. It's definitely not 2 stops better.

21 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

ISO 3200 is not a native ISO, therefore you are losing DR. 400 and 2500 are native ISO's and only by using those values are you getting the max DR.

There is absolutely improved highlight rolloff, if you don't see that you don't know the GH5 very well ?

I will look forward to seeing side-by-side tests at native ISO's 400 and 2500.

So far, I am not convinced there is any DR improvement with the GH5s compared to the GH5. Yes, there are some very talented filmmakers that know how to use these cameras to their fullest potential, but I'm just not seeing any differences when the two cameras are filmed side-by-side:

4 minutes ago, buggz said:

Is "6K" anamorphic still available?

I will guess, still no HDMI signal is outputted during 6K anamorphic recording?

6k is not an option with a 10MP sensor. 4k only.

Has anyone been able to see a comparison between the GH5 vs GH5s that verifies better dynamic range? Highlight rolloff? I've seen comparisons between the two side-by-side, but nothing convincing that it is better with the GH5s. Of course, it depends on a lot of factors including lighting conditions, color depth used and if they used V-log, etc.

Some people at Panny are claiming better dynamic range but so far, no real confirmation via a legitimate test. Has anyone seen anything of substance? Seems like everyone is focused on low-light tests.

Luke, Did I hear you correctly? 14 stops of dynamic range? I think you stated that? 2 stop increase compared to the GH5?

21 minutes ago, Neumann Films said:

3 hours

Really looking forward to your thoughts Luke. Have you put together a summary of your findings and opinion? I really am looking forward to what you have to say. Thanks for being here!

I'm also curious about if it has 240fps in 1080p and the quality of it, if it exists. I have gotten some great wildlife shots with the GH5 @120fps. 240 would be even better.