Astro

[quote name='markm' timestamp='1347872068' post='18306']
You have given no information only to down the GH2 and to down me for giving facts and you did this with insults inuendo and either lying or no knowledge of the facts. Are you a troll?.
[/quote]

LOL!! Excellent reponse!! :D
I agree totally, guys like this come in with a big aggressive attitudes...and with an air of total superiority and disregard
for others, then they hurl out insults to top it off...and these are the type responses of they will get.

Talk about lack of people / communication skills and a total lack of any regard at all!!
The internet is full of people like this guy, you will find them on the DAW forums, 3d forums and everywhere else,
ruining quite often constructive conversations with their egocentric desire to put down others, claim what they use and know is totally superior and right...jeez

[quote name='KahL' timestamp='1347865857' post='18297']
I'm curious to see what the "wide dynamic range" capability actually is with this newer model though. The colors are a big turn off for me, so maybe that's a saving grace beyond deluded fandom support :-/
[/quote]

I tend to agree about the colors on the P Bloom video actually.
However if you look at sites like this and personal view you will see there is ample criticism and doubt from many posters about the GH3..so no need for the "deluded / fanboy" style insults, it doesn't achieve anything other than make people think badly of you.
Cheers

About the 686Meg MP4 file...I think Philip said its the original uncompressed file from memory.
Just some pixel peeping for some to chew on.
The 686Meg MP4 file is 23.976 FPS, 19.8 Mbps...(so relatively speaking its still quite low),
its 4.2.0 chroma subsampling and its 8 bit.
It does look quite good, and much better than the previous 1080P version, I would not call it stunning (the quality I mean), but it does have a certain look to it that is likeable on the 686Meg version.
Obviously the camera is capable of A LOT more tho.
Its entirely possible that the All I Frame higher bitrate option was not available on the version of the Camera that they used to do this clip, P Bloom said the HDMI out was not working on that Camera, so it was probably quite an early version of the GH3.
Anyway it will be interesting to see what the 72Mbps ALL-I frame quality is like and what the chroma subsampling is on the higher bitrate etc....

[quote name='cameraboy' timestamp='1347804641' post='18266']
there something about big companies and their promo videos ...
they can make high tech cameras and space technologies but no decent convert image on vimeo or you tube ...
[/quote]

LOL!! :) True...I hope you are right!

[quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1347801838' post='18258']
I am amazed people don't know the difference between 7Mbit and 72mbit. VIMEO IS A 7MBIT STREAM!!
[/quote]

Agreed its a very low bitrate and obviously will be much better at 72 or higher intra
(most of us have seen/edited/graded with those high bitrates a lot...we do know the difference).
Actually the actual value of the GH3 1080P version is 11.4Mbps maximum (pixel peeping here) I tested it on 2 analyzers.

BUT I have seen plenty of 720P videos on Vimeo that look way sharper than that one and 1080P ones as well.
This one for example shot on the GH2 is MILES BETTER for detail and its bit rate is less than the GH3 upload...around 4.5 max.
[media]http://vimeo.com/39913748[/media]
Download it...and have a look at her face and hair on a still at around 18 seconds, all the detail is there, it looks great to me...even downloaded from Vimeo (standard).
Now look at any shot of the guy in that room when he is still, even the girls face..theguy is downright soft and the girl close up is OK but not great (not what I would call great anyway),
So especially with the hi shots of the guy in the room and other parts as well ...its either shot out of focus or they compressed the crap out of it before they uploaded to vimeo, or something dodgy is going on in the camera or the focus.
Dont get me wrong I want to love the GH3...I want to be wrong about this!
But this clip is a turn off to me, something else has happened other than the Vimeo compression, look at the other clip and tell me I am wrong.
Sorry to disagree.
Cheers

[quote name='cameraboy' timestamp='1347798225' post='18249']
yup ...
12 or 13.9 MP are overshot for 1080p...
8MP would be perfect ... my English is less than perfect but i try to explain ...
2x2 pixel binning in 8MP sensor gives perfect 1080p image ....
but if 12MP sensor does 2x2 we get 3MP image ...
then camera CPU needs to do quick'n'dirty realtime resizing to 1080p and that introduce softness to image and some moire/aliasing ...
[/quote]

Cool!! Thanks for the response...Hopefully when the GH2 is unveiled at Photokina we will know more.

[quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1347796739' post='18239']
Regarding the sensor, the partially complete specs at Samy's hint at multi-aspect ratio, made by Panasonic.
This Sony sensor rumour is just that, a rumour.
I'll try and explore this a little more at Photokina and dive into the details, like whether it still has a 1:1 crop mode, whether the HDMI is uncompressed 4:2:2, etc.
The specs say 17.20MP total pixels, 16.05MP effective. It then says '17.3 x 13.00mm IN 4/3 MODE' suggesting the sensor size changes to 19 x 10.5mm in 16:9 mode like the GH2.
[/quote]

Thanks for that Andrew...these are the kind of details we want to know about, that and the profiles as well, exactly what they are?...how much color control etc...

[quote name='cameraboy' timestamp='1347794639' post='18234']
16:9 crop part of sensor is 12MP [/quote]

GH2 16:9 crop is 13.9MP (14MP).

[quote name='cameraboy' timestamp='1347792628' post='18226']
what's wrong with sony sensor ..it's best 4/3 sensor ever made ...
panasonic did brave move ..better to buy from sony if they can't match spec ...
[/quote]

Well its probably a good 4/3 sensor BUT!!
In the non Multi aspect 16mp is used only in 4/3 mode, thats standard for all non multi-aspect sensors.
Other modes (that most people use these days) are just croppings such as 16:9 etc.., because less sensor is used, and less detail.
It just simply crops from the 4:3 frame so you have a lot less FOV (both vertical & horizontal) than what you can get from a Multi-Aspect sensor.
Also all wide lenses will be less wide than they are on the Multi Aspect sensor of the GH2..less wide, less detail, cropped from 16mp.
Doesn't sound that enticing to me!! but thats only my opinion based on what I like.
On the upside DR will probably be better, gradation will probably be better and low light etc..
.
So the question is (and that is up to the individual) what do you prefer?
I know what I prefer especially with the latest GH2 hacks and what I can do in post...
but thats based on my needs, and what I like.
YMMV
Cheers

Yeah if its 100% certain its a Sony Sensor...its disappointing, it would have been nice if they had developed the multi aspect sensor further.
This sensor will make wide angle shots less wide etc...plus it does look softer...at least in that vid.

[quote name='markm' timestamp='1347782755' post='18198']
Genesis looked quite cinematic but I have to say a lot of the shots especially when the camera was in low light were quite soft.. There was a shot of the girl in town though that looked very sharp.
After looking closely at Genesis I'm not sure I'm ready to swap my GH2 yet.
[/quote]

Yeah agreed, this was the camera on my list...not the BMCC for a lot of different reasons.
But....even tho some people say the shots looked cinematic and they do in a way, the ones that worried me were the indoor shots, they were just soft period and there were a lot of them, I just cant understand how they passed those and then put them in a promo video, they just looked kinda blunt to me and without any clear detail.
The girl in town looked pretty good tho, but I have seen better from the GH2 many times, I have better ones myself...not just sharper, but cleaner and more detailed.

I agree about the colors too...they just lack some pop, however I have seen nice colors from Panansonic Cameras and shot videos myself where I have been very happy with the colors.
But I do agree this video has a green and brown almost messy looking hue...its just not that appealing, I dunno.
Anyway I am hanging on to my GH2 right now, and may invest in another, I can live with its limitations unless Sony or this GH3 really lives up to expectations, and that may happen after the launch and we have seen more footage and read more details about it.
But right now, this video has pretty much dampened my enthusiasm on the GH3 despite being well done and a lot of effort in it , I just dont really like it...(the images I mean)

[quote name='gene_can_sing' timestamp='1347763912' post='18189']
Reverie it is not.
[/quote]

Yep I am no Canon fan ...and I love my GH2 but yeah the colors on Reverie are soo much better, they are not exactly cinematic, but they have plenty of pop and look really good (larger than life).

[quote name='gene_can_sing' timestamp='1347763912' post='18189']
This is something I've really noticed with the GH2 which carries over to the GH3. There seems to be a lack of tonality in the colors. The GH cameras always look like there's a strong earthy, brown tone to all the video. It seems almost monochromatic like there's a single color wash over all the footage, compared to say.... Canon (who I despise as a company) or the FS700.
[/quote]

Pretty much agree with this...although I found Vibrant to be good on the GH2, and with not too color grading work I can get some nice bright and clean colors from the GH2.
I agree with you about Canon too, I doubt if I'll ever buy another Camera off them, they seem to be no longer an option (for me anyway)

[quote name='gene_can_sing' timestamp='1347763912' post='18189']
That's always been my major issue with the camera is the color, and it doesn't seem to be any different this time around.
[/quote]

Yep that may well be true, its possible there were no color profiles on that camera...I hope that is the case.
I guess we will know more in a few days.
Actually the biggest criticism I have is I thought that even the 1080p version looked pretty soft on a lot of shots.
Personally I will be really interested to know if its now a Sony Sensor in that camera, I like the multi aspect sensor on the Gh2, I would be very dissappointed to see that style of sensor no longer in the GH series.
The other thing is what features can be controlled by Android apps etc...

[quote name='gene_can_sing' timestamp='1347763912' post='18189']
But still, the camera is damn inexpensive anyway you look at it and you are getting a LOT for your money. It will sell tons.
[/quote]

Yep it probably will sell tons.

1080P version is now up at Philip Blooms site!
Hmmm Tassles are still there on the fan, field lines on the bag and the guy lying on the bed shot from above looks 5D Mk3 style soft (possibly out of focus) I dunno...I want to be excited...and parts look really good, but I have seen a lot better from the GH2...a lot better.
Dont want to jump to conclusions tho, we will see what happens on Monday.

[quote name='Anil Rao' timestamp='1347753417' post='18180']

1. Watch the fans blades in the beginning, that was really shocking,
unless they are all really furry, as I have seen fan blades with tassles before.
:)
[/quote]

LOL!! Totally agree, they look downright weird actually, tassles is a good description.
Another wierd thing like that appears again later when the guy runs rushes his bag past the lit window at 33 seconds, its like exaggerated field lines...what the hell is that? its like old analogue TV or something.
Also overall the video looks a bit softer than the GH2 as well..it appears to not just be a compression thing either.
I just hope this is not because of the rumoured Sony non multi aspect sensor!

Really the only thing I am concerned about right now is the strong rumour that has been around for a while, that it is using a non multi aspect sony Sensor, and that would also make the picture softer and affect the cropping.
I really hope this is not the case, I guess we will see on Monday.

I think Canon are obviously not that concerned with Video quality in their DSLR's whereas Panasonic, Olympus, Sony definitely appear to be.
Just the fact that the got Philip Bloom etc...to do a promo video (wether you like the skin tones or not) speaks volumes about them wanting to appeal to indie film makers etc..

Skin tones in the beginning also looked totally fine to me, and even if they werent, it takes a second to correct them with the garbage mat and vectorscope in Premiere, besides that human skin has subsurface scattering (reflects and scatters environmental light) so in a subway it would look greensish...if you dont like it...change it in post...gotta be easier than dealing with the size of RAW!

Anyway I personally would buy the GH3 over the BMCC because it fills my needs better...cheaper, not so tied to the Mac, more flexible frame rates, less file size, works with all M43 lenses and a zillion other things.
Plus totally agree with Quickhitrecord...lets see the BMCC when it is the real world, they have not made a single camera yet, this is their first and the fanboyism and predictions of greatness and useabilty etc..are already over the top.
I am happy to let everyone else be the guinea pigs with the BMCC and watch what happens, that said at least Panasonic have made a lot of cameras and that has to count for something.

[b] [/b]

Hi...I have been trawling the net looking for more info on the GH3 (read most of whats out there)
Anyway I stumbled across the 6 pages at dvxuser, and I was shocked and disgusted at some of the peoples attitudes there...especially in attacking Andrew.
Honestly that Donald Ong and dcloud..and a couple of others dont realise what this looks like from the outside, they just came across as real...ass...les!!
Anyway I bought a GH2 and I love the film image (I mainly shoot and develop music clips), now we have 2 Canons also (not 5DMk2 or 3's)...but if the 5DMk3's image was what I was after for video I would buy one tommorrow, but it's not, all the footage I have seen just lacks the detail I want, so I am looking to the Gh3 probably as the BM Camera seems pretty mac orientated for what I need and although RAW is great but I really dont want that much data space taken up.
So its probably the GH3 or the next generation of Sony cameras.
So anyway thanks Andrew for your site, I like your articles, that thread really put me off DVX user, they are worse than most of the severe elitists at gearslutz, and many of the other forums on the net...unbelievable really.
Cheers

I would really like them to address the strobing issue in 24P.
Global Shutter probably would have done it, but it looks like that wont be happening...unfortunately.
I know most digital cameras strobe and stutter somewhat with panning and camera movement in 24P (even the Reds).
But the GH2 has it a bit too much..(to say the least), just make it a bit less, that would do.

I would really like (As I think Andrew may have suggested) to see the highlight blowouts addressed.
A built in ND would probably help this...and more DR.
And...Dont make it Smaller...what is it about the Japs?
I hate everything being smaller all the time...uuuggghh!! Does everything have to look like a friggin I Phone.
Small is not always beautiful...some of us like a little bit of chunk in a Camera body :LOL!!

I dont think Camera I is the GH2...mainly because the models black dress is not lit up that much.
I took some still caps of each and had a quick look, I agree that the green shirt guy is too well lit in the B camera, but overall that camera captures a lot of detail...for whatever reason.
Its very apparent in the still caps...I went frame by frame until each one was close to the exact same position and the cleanest frame appeared ...and B had the most detail in general of all the caps fro all the cameras.
I am not saying it was the best, just that it had the most detail..there was a certain smearing of detail in some of the others (again...not saying its a bad thing, just pointing it out).
Some of the Cameras had certain parts of the room lit more than others ...for example A, C, F, H and I had the left corner well lit whereas in B and E it was barely lit...so some cameras captured more detail in that area...depending on lighting.
Overall tho..I personally still like H...just my taste I guess, but it looks great overall.

Hi...Yeah I agree with Andrew.
I have kinda made my decisions...I dont mind a bit of detective work...anyway hopefully we will get the results soon.

I have had a few more looks at this shootout here and there in 1080P and I read earlier someone saying that B has a digital look that they did not like (I even said it myself on Personal View)
BUT on second and third looks I now feel its one of the best, it is actually the cleanest and most detailed image, look at the guys green shirt, the close up of the girls hair, the carpet.

What makes it look digital is the hi contrast window and the stark difference between that and when the men walk in front of that well lit window.
Lets face it, most people would not film that scenario, I would look for slightly less extremes...now take that away and the rest of the picture is really good. (my opinion only of course)
I dont know if its the Gh2..it probably isn't...but its a good camera whatever it is.
I would pick that along with H (so B and H)
Just my 2 cents
Cheers

Absolutely excellent work, beautiful filmaking with a lot of soul!!
Enjoy your blogs too, great!!
Cheers

Hi Andrew.
Great article...appreciate your work, this sounds like a pretty awesome camera, and I realize that in this camera not having 24P is considered a major oversight by many, and it would be nice to have it there.
But as you mainly shoot in Anamorphic some of the shortcomings of 24P are not as obvious in that mode, so you may not experience the frustrations I have with that mode.
Now if you are shooting in 1080P at 24 progressive frames (or even 25P) then on (practically any) CMOS based camera the problems become very obvious and very frustrating.
Namely strobing and stuttering and flickering in hi contrast areas...the 180% shutter angle does not help at all, in other words panning the camera has to be very very careful and handheld in any form is pretty much a nightmare, as is slight movement for example shooting trees where there is a bright sky.
I have done extensive testing with this, read countless forums, tested the GH2 with all the latest hacks (Dritwoods latest, plus Flowmotion etc..), used different lenses...from the kit lens to 20mm F1.7 and older Konicas, that all do it, even my sons Canon..same thing....shutter speed and ND filters only marginally help, they dont fix the problem.
But 29.97 frames is 100% better, you can actually get smooth footage and nice panning at 1080P and practically no flickering, at 24P this nasty flickering in hi contrast areas is probably exaggerated somewhat by a lot of monitors refreshing at 60Hz.
Now prior to realizing this..my GH2 was bound for ebay because I need to pan for music clips and the like.
So (for me anyway) no more 24P or 25P ( I live in PAL land) so I just set the shutter to 1/50 to solve any flickering lights, and as 29.97 is a pretty widely accepted format I will stay at the frame rate...even tho it was originally the one I was least interested in, but for me its far and away the best.
There is an interesting article on this...and its true
http://www.hdvideopro.com/technique/miscellaneous-technique/help-desk-did-i-judder.html
another here
http://www.shutterangle.com/2012/cinematic-look-frame-rate-shutter-speed/
I just wanted to point out that 24P is not for everybody, certainly not me after the hassles I had with it.
But obviously you (and others) do great work with it in anamorphic.
Cheers
Astro

A Gutsy article Andrew...and all very true!!
Because there is no competition and bloggers and dont say it like it is...Canon, Panasonic, Red and to a lesser degree Sony have been able to charge outrageous prices for their products and milk them without doing anything major for several years.
The 5D Mark3 was a glaring example of this, they had 3 plus years to really make the Mark3 into something special, they must have known the indie market was huge, but they chose to improve certain areas but largely ignore this market to protect the C300 and C500, the $15,000 upwards cams with hefty prices.
Same with Panasonic, they have not improved even their Camcorders like the TM700, TM900s line for years, just minor changes to milk the market.
Whats the bet the GH3 will be a disappointment? yeah it may have 50/60fps at 1080P (if we are lucky) but I'll bet they dont do too much to improve the cam...(just enough to milk the market more).
And Jan Livingstons posts on your forum the other day seemed to re inforce that corporate mentality these companies have, I realize they have NDA's and the like, but they just dont seem to "get it" and now time is running out for them.
The party may not be over for them yet, but it has been gatecrashed.
As far as the GH2 goes...I personally believe that was something of a fluke...and the hack made it more appealing (thats part the reason I bought one), and the 5D mk2 was legendary of course, but both these companies seem determined to recycle older technology with more or less minor changes for as long as possible,
Jan's posts confirmed that...so I am glad the BlackMagic have decided to to make a camera that will derail the Canon, Panny gravy train at least to some extent.
Sorry Jan...but your posts the other day did more to reinforce my opinion that Panasonic does not "get it" and the GH3 will likely be a disappointment than anything else, I would love to be wrong, but I dont think I will be.
Its amazing to me that Canon and Panasonic have so much technology, so much brand power, but they are somehow in a corporate straight jacket and play it safe.
I'll bet some of the more creative camera designers and innovators at Canon and Panasonic would be frustrated, trying to get these corporations to become seriously competitive with new technology would be something like trying to teach an elephant to tap dance.
So kudos to Blackmagic for having the vision to see this opportunity and actually doing something about it,
I (like others tho...will believe it when this camera is released and proved reliable in the field)
I hope they do come through and the camera is a big hit, because Panasonic and the like certainly seem to be sitting on their hands.

Forums are a place where people get to express their views.
Somehow or other tho...Canon, Panasonic and Sony to a lesser degree dont seem to be listening, maybe they are too bound up in corporate planning and structuring...I dont know.
But its very obvious that there is a gap in the market for a good camera that will fill most of the needs of Indie film makers etc...Blackmagic appear to be seeing this huge gap that is more or less being ignored by the large Japanese Corporations, but they are not invincible, if they dont hear the message...they will miss out on a huge opportunity.
If for example Panansonic limit their GH3 too much in order to protect their more expensive Cameras, I guess I will look elsewhere for an upgrade path.
But if for example Panansonic was actually capable of listening and bit the bullet and made the GH3 as a really solid move forward for DLSR film makers and the like, addressing some of the concerns here and on other forums, they would probably kill it with that camera.
But I am somehow doubtfull they will do this, Corporations always seem to move slowly and very conservatively, and this leaves the market open for companies like Blackmagic.
Kudos to Andrew tho...for having the balls to speak out about this, I find his blogs refreshingly honest...wether some agree or not.
Cheers