stephen

Just trying to explain in a friendly conversation why IMHO we don't see 14 bit video in hybrid cameras.
Image quality is a process and camera is just a part of this process. Even if we concentrate only on camera IMHO it would be wrong to attribute image quality of a sensor/camera to a single parameter as 14bit color. It's a complex thing.

Correct me if I am wrong but according to this page ARRI RAW is 12bit
https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/pre-postproduction/file-formats-data-handling/arriraw-faq#accordion-292364

while Red RAW is 16 bit - https://www.red.com/power-of-red-redcode

Does it mean then that 16 bit Red RAW image quality or Canon 5D Mark III with it's 14 bit color are superior to Arri ? Image quality is different even among Red Cameras. Isn't it ? Red Komodo then is capable of 16bit image. For me this is price point that many can afford.

Wanted to point out also that economics play a significant role in choice of cameras and of course cameras capabilities. For me capabilities vs price when comparing 2000$ cameras with 20000$ or more cameras are hugely in favor of the lower price point cameras. You get ~ 90 or more percent of the image quality for 1/10 or less of the price. Nothing to complain about here.

Of course progress thankfully will not stop and agree that 8K was not the right direction for hybrid camera to go. It was the easiest to achieve and market. I wish to see more cameras with smaller rolling shutter, internal BRAW or ProRes RAW and integrated in camera ND filters more than anything else.

Blind tests are some sort of reality check, far from ideal or strictly scientific but still reality check. So when we give certain qualifications of better or worst we need some sort of starting point for comparison that most can agree on, otherwise it is subjective.

Thankfully we have now great cameras to work with at any price point and if you shoot something interesting and engaging with your Panasonic S1, image quality will not be the decisive factor whether people will like it or not. Nobody and I mean NOBODY will come after and say: "Nice movie but I wish colors were better". It is always good to have this perspective when we dream or wish for new cool tools  🙂 

@Attila Bakos - Yes latest Danne build. I don't see improvements in bit rate, mostly in stability. Don't see from where this improvement in bit rate will come. 2-4 years ago ML team managed to overclock SD cards improving writing speed from 25-30Mb to 65Mb. Bit rate on  5D Mark III is now 80-85Gb with a good CF card + 65 Gb from SD card = 150Gb/s Didn't heard of any major development that would break this mark. As said we have this speed for at least 2-3 years.

Yes at 1080p resolution RAW video, camera is quite nice to work with,  not at 1.6 or closer to this crop modes. Tried hard to solve the framing problem using external optical viewfinder or even a smartphone as a second camera/screen. It was always pain in the neck. 10 years ago Canon ML RAW video hack was a breakthrough, now when we have blackmagic pocket 4K and 6K, can't find any reason to shoot with Canon 5K Mark III in crop mode. Blackmagic cameras have better dynamic range and they keep it trough all ISO range, very good rolling shutter,much easier to use, better monitoring capabilities, reliability. Kept 5D as a memory of the DSLR era and possibly some personal projects at 1080p but so far didn't shot any.

Don't want to put down ML team, they did and still do a great job, I am grateful for their time and work, but have to admit and live to reality.

What I've found in my personal experience happens for all video/film productions. Camera cost is only a small and often not a major part of film/video production budget. If one camera is few hundred bucks less expensive than another one but you spend much more time and efforts in post production or when shooting, at the end the less expensive camera will cost you much more. This is even more evident in mid to high end movie/video productions. It is then well understandable why TV series are shot on Alexa but at ProRes 4:2:2. At the end nobody other than probably few professionals will ever notice the small difference in image quality.

Again we tend to overestimate value of image quality while in reality nobody from the non pro large audience will notice it. If for you Canon 5D Mark III RAW video image looks good, great use it, just do not kid yourself it is somehow superior to the rest of modern cameras, while in measurable parameters like dynamic range and rolling shutter it is clearly inferior and for the large audience it really doesn't matter.

@TomTheDP - I wouldn't say slim, the Magic Lantern community was pretty large

It is. Just check how many times is downloaded latest Danne's build or MLV App. 2-3 thousands. And 90% to 95% of  the people will shoot a few test clips and that's it. Few will use it for small and personal projects as Zeek, and even less for commercial / production projects. Compare this to how many BM, Canon, Panasonic, Sony cameras are sold and used each year.

Unless somebody can prove in blind test even among relatively small circle of professionals that 14bit is better compared to 12 bit or even correctly recognized will consider it purely subjective. All tests that I've seen and even participated in indicate the opposite. A local shop did a test with Sony A7 series cameras in their early days. They've shot 10 pictures with different subjects and lighting conditions with Canon, Nikon and Sony A7 12bit compressed format. All 3 cameras were full frame. On screen and on print Canon and Nikon owners were not able to distinguish or guess which pictures were shot with their beloved cameras which they will passionately claim in forums have superior 14bit or whatever colors 🙂 It was completely random. We had some 11-12 years ago Great Zakuto shootout, this one here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZjIz8sB2vg) and so on 🙂

How do you shoot at 3.5K in 14 bit color ? 3520x1740 at 14bit gives me just few seconds, 3520x1740 at 12bit is from 15 sec to 1-2 minutes. Have to drop to 10bit in order to get closer to continuous. And this is with global draw off. With global draw on it is even worst.

Canon 5D Mark III raw video in crop mode for me is PRACTICALLY UNUSABLE:
    - there is no live view framing, you can't see on a monitor of even the tiny screen what you shoot
    - rolling shutter is more than 33 ms
    - camera is unreliable, had many freezes and you don't know if your recording is going to stop and especially when it is going to stop.
    - as your ISO increases your dynamic range and color palette decrease
    - software hack is always in development and movement, you don't know what bug your are going to hit and when

Tried many times to use it in crop mode and always ended in frustration. 1080p is the best, can have external monitor and proper framing, reliable, simple, 35mm lens has the same angle of view as on full frame. Use super scale in Resolve or Video Enhance AI to upscale to 4K and it is good enough. There you can shoot in 14 bits no problem.

Why we don't see 14bit video in hybrid cameras ? Simple answer is:
    - no demand - just look how many good video in RAW shot with Canon 5D Mark III hack are on youtube. For more than 12 years. Interest and usage are slim.
    - still some challenges to shoot and process such a massive amount of data. I know for a fact that in my (relatively small) country TV series are shot on Arri Alexa not in RAW but on Prores 4:2:2. Without compression very few people or companies are willing to deal with RAW video.  BRAW or ProRes RAW, Red RAW - yes no problem. Cinema DNG files even with lossless compression - few are willing to deal with data volume and workflow that comes with it.

I honestly doubt that anybody can see the difference between 14 and 12 bit color, especially on the monitors and screens we are using. I tested it on Canon 5D Mark III some time ago and couldn't. 14bit vs 12 bit, color science when related to RAW video and even in 10bit 4:2:2 - all this is purely subjective. All those claims of superiority falls apart when doing a blind test. Can give as example several published on internet tests.

I tried recently iPhone 14 for video after seeing several people on youtube recommending it. Shot on same location and lighting condition where some time ago shot a small personal project / clip with Canon 5d Mark III in RAW video crop mode. Yes you can't switch off sharpening, noise reduction and tone mapping for better dynamic range on iPhone but Oh boy how easy it was to get great picture quality, how good image stabilization was. Apply some grain and film emulation using dehancer and it is good enough. Efforts vs results comparable to Canon 5D Mark III are 100% on iPhone side.

I am thinking seriously to get one of those new Android smartphones with 1'' sensor like Vivo X90 Pro Plus and shoot raw video on a smartphone for personal projects. It can do 4K 60p RAW and I believe this is only in 10bit DNG. Apply some grain, film emulation  in dehancer and image look gorgeous to me. It is a lot easier than Canon 5D Mark III and it the end results will be equally impressive if not better. And this camera is with you all the time 🙂

Whole history of photography is a move toward ease of use and convenience once certain acceptable image quality has been achieved. Image quality by the way matters mostly to us, people who shoot not to the people and wide audience who will watch it. That's also a proven fact we should never forget.

On 3/6/2023 at 6:30 PM, FHDcrew said:

@stephenwhat bag do you use?  Does the recorder ever get hot for you?  I tried this once (stupid idea) with a Fanny pack and my Atomos Ninja V got MUCH too hot!

@FHDcrew Have 3 bags
  - Mantona bought from Amazon - can fit there S5 with cage + top handle + video assist + some lenses
  - Vanguard BIIN 25 - https://www.amazon.com/Vanguard-BIIN-25-Shoulder-Camera/dp/B005LUL0CQ?th=1
    can fit there S5 + Video Assist 5'' 12G + 3 lenses. Video Assist mounted on the hot shoe with HDMI cable + 2 NP-F small batteries can fit as a whole piece. Or Video Assist can be detached from the camera. When not shooting it will stay on its bottom part with screen to the side wall of the back and vents on top. Almost never shoot with Video Assist in this position. Usually will turn it on its back at the bottom of the bag. This way can keep the bag open and still peek from time to time to the screen.
In general prefer to shoot with Video Assist on top of the camera and use it as a monitor too. Only when for some reasons want to keep low profile and not draw attention will leave it in the bag. Usually my takes are not more than 1-2 min and Video Assists stays relatively cool. It still blows some hot air but metal frame and good ventilation helps to keep it from becoming too hot. In the few occasions that used it this way it never became too hot. Had Ninja V for few months before buying Video Assist. From memories Ninja V is hotter than Video Assist and fan is louder. Saw on youtube somebody claiming the same.

IMHO there are many bags with similar to Vanguard BIIN 25 dimensions that can be used.

@Walter H - Yes can post some clips shot with Paansonic S1/S5 + BM Video Assist. Have many but the best would be to make some new test shots - one using internal 10bit 4:2:2 recording and same scene using BRAW and Video Assist. It would be easier for you to see the difference and decide if external recording is worth for you. Just give me a 7-8 days and I'll do the tests and upload source files on google drive or something similar and post the links here.

I took this path more than a year ago for several reasons.
    1. BRAW. Using BMPCC 4K realized how good BRAW is  
            - various degree of compression and file size
            - ability to adjust white balance
            - great support in Davinci Resolve,
            - smooth playback, scrubbing and editing

One of the main reason I've choose Panasonic, instead of Sony or Canon was support of external BRAW recording. Only Panasonic and Nikon cameras had it. But Panasonic support is better as it gives you 6K and no line skipping, auto focus was not a problem for me because can use manual focus for 100% of what I shoot

The other reason was price. Even then Panasonic S5 almost new from the box but second hand costed me 1100 Euro. Cheaper than BMPCC 4K which new came at 1400 Euro. If we add speedbooster and monitor price is also pretty much comparable to Panasonic S5 + Video Assist

    2.     BMPCC 4K is great but it's difficult to shoot without external monitor. Maybe it's just me but without a good 1500+ nits monitor which sits at 45 to 90 degree to the top of the camera or camera + cage + top handle it was really difficult and painful to shoot. In general I find that the most convenient, practical and useful setup for professional or serious shoots is camera + cage + top handle + monitor. It adds weight which is good for stability and it makes shooting so much easier. If we add the monitor to BMPCC 4K, then in terms and weight and size Panasonic S5 + BM Video Assist, suddenly became almost identical to BMPCC + monitor and even more compact in terms of length. Panasonic S5 can be used on most gimbals, BMPCC 4K on just a few. If I stayed only with BMPCC 4K had to buy a new gimbal. Sometimes it is great to be able to shoot with one small camera and lens, similar to the reporter style of Henri Cartier-Bresson. But BMPCC 4K is not good at this. It lacks EVF and is too big in length. Panasonic S5 on the other hand is. For those shoots I can skip the recorder and use 10bit 4:2:2 internal codec which is also very good or simply put the recorder in a bag and have a small and tiny HDMI cable hanging on the side.

    3. BMPCC 4K sensor size. I used Metabones speedbooster x0.64 and in term of DOF and bokeh this camera and setup were great. However crop factor is kind of weird - 1.21, can't use my primes lens sets on their specific focal length. No big deal but still kind of problematic. With Panasonic S5 any vintage lens has exactly the same focal length / angle degree it was designed for.

Panasonic S5 + BM Video Assist 5'' 12G solves most of BMPCC 4K shortcomings like poor battery life, lack of EVF, IBIS and smaller sensor size. Plus it is a great photo camera on it's own. Plus it could be used without BM Video Assist 5'' and will still give great image quality.

Shortcomings of Panasonic S5 + Video Assist: Micro HDMI, always kind of problematic, needs special attention and mini cage with a clamp to hold it on place or micro HDMI to HDMI adapter clamped to a cage as well. You need a bigger bag in order to be able to put camera and recorder together as one piece but same is true for BMPCC 4K + monitor. You have to start / stop two different devices.

In general I find  S5 + BM Video Assist to be more convenient and enjoyable camera setup than BMPCC 4K + monitor + speedbooster. New S5 II solves the micro HDMI port problem and adds tracking auto focus. Can we call it cinema camera ? Yes, with BRAW it certainly is capable to deliver high picture quality.

BMPCC 4K in smaller more compact body with tilt adjustable LCD.

HIDDEN S5ii Feature NOBODY is Talking About!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxZdTozSzcI

Panasonic also posted a message that preorders and demand for S5 II is way bigger than estimated and cameras will be in short supply for some time.

35mm Already use it for 75% of all shots

1 hour ago, Dave Maze said:

Hey guys! Still finishing up my full review. Do you guys have any questions about it?

Do Panasonic S5 II has the 200$ option for external RAW video ? Is BRAW supported as external RAW video format ? It should be as all current models have it. Just want a clarification as all other reviewers talk about ProRes and ProRes RAW as external video option for Panasonic S5 II X model

According to CVP's review Panasonic S5 II PDAF auto focus in video is still behind Sony and Canon. According to them auto focus with Sigma MC21 + Canon EF lenses is no different than auto focus with native lenses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VPQoWRS0l4

For me, the most important thing is that Panasonic continues to invest in their FF bodies, improve their functionality and have plans to stay in photo / hybrids business. That alone is no small feat with heavy weights like Canon and Sony on the side and constantly shrinking sales. At one point in time started to doubt my investment in 3 Sigma L mount lenses and 2 Panasonic FF bodies. Not anymore 😀

They solved a major bottleneck and hopefully their bodies and L Mount will get more sales and popularity. Sigma and Leica for sure will follow and this gives L mount much more chances to survive and even thrive in this very difficult business.

For my type of work, the lack of tracking AF for video has never been an issue or I wouldn't have invested into the system 😀 However PDAF + some other improvements that S5 II has are worthy for an upgrade
    - PDAF and tracking video AF - nice to have
    - Full HDMI port
    - Improved viewfinder
    - better compatibility with Canon EOS mount lenses. Richard Wong also says that  Sigma MC21 + Canon EF lenses = continuous video auto focus with Lumix S5II -

There is some confusion will regular Panasonic S5 II get external RAW video recording with additional 200$ upgrade. Some places and reviewers say yes, others say no. Hopefully Panasonic would keep this as paid option available for the S5 II too and not only for S5 II X. Hopefully they also keep BRAW option for external recording too.

Was surprised to see so much youtubers in Tokyo and most of them were never into Panasonic system. No doubt this is a massive advertising campaign with loaner bodies and lenses, etc.. Another good sign that Panasonic makes all the efforts to stay relevant in this very difficult business.

We know that DJI LIDAR module will work with cameras and without the need of RS 3 gimbal. Their module however still needs an external motor and smartphone for the application to move / focus the lens. Maybe Panasonic will demo a new camera where LIDAR will focus the lens internally without the need of external motor and smartphone. Just a speculation.

Here is a hint that on this event Panasonic (and DJI) will present LIDAR type of auto focus tech. Saw on one of the pictures the guy from MAKE. ART. NOW. youtube channel. He doesn't use Panasonic cameras but had an extensive review of LIDAR tech on DJI RS3 gimbal and also reviewed DJI Ronin 4D. He is more connected to DJI than Panasonic. So DJI seems to be involved and it will be most likely a joint event and presentation. Lets see :)

Did a test with 75 degree and 60 degree, still not satisfied with the results. Maybe am doing something wrong ? It is possible. Lens on BMPCC 4K was vintage one with no electronic contacts. Correct focal length was set in camera.

Even if gyro stabilization works great, shooting at angle different than 180 degree breaks one of the major technical rules that give us esthetics that we call cinematic. This is still a problem for me. For others it may be OK.

Use 180 degree rule and in most cases stabilization in post works fine. But of course it is used to smooth and compensate for small movement and jitter when camera itself is panning or moving rather slowly. I try to use proper technique while shooting in order to get stable footage at first place. Most of the time shoot handheld without gimbal. One of the keys to get stable footage without gimbal or IBIS or IS in lens is to use heavier rig (2-2.5 kg). The other is to use good technique, lots of tip and tricks. For example with top handle and 35mm or wider lens can even do short walks.

For long walks or runs will not shy away and use gimbal. Still proper walking technique is needed as gimbal can't compensate for up and down movement.

BMPCC 4K/6K Giro stabilization was kind of disappointment for me. In all tests normal 'warp' stabilization in Resolve worked better than gyro. Unfortunately there is no substitute for good shooting technique and heavier rigs or gimbals.

My observations are that in the professional video/cinema world nobody complains about camera size or rigs. You either go after ultimate picture quality (whatever this for you is) or convenience. I often watch this video about DP Hoyte van Hoytema and Christopher Nolan.

Why Christopher Nolan & Hoyte van Hoytema Films Everything In Camera & IMAX

Impressive how big the iMax 70 mm film camera is. Somebody has to help put it on Hoytema's shoulder. Аs they say: Go big or go home. 🙂

Speed booster from the link doesn't have electronic contacts, S1 won't crop the picture. Camera won't know what kind of lens is attached. S1/S5 do the crop with ASP lenses when they have electronic contacts and are recognized by the camera.

However I don't think it's a good idea to use FF with speed booster on a FF body. At least you need to try it first.

Recently bought a relatively good and cheap Chinese lens with positive reviews:
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-syoptic-50mm-1-1/

Never had such a fast lens and wanted to try one for photography. For video such a shallow DOF is totally unusable. For photography it was a disappointment too. It's a specialized tool only for portraits but at f1.1 it is soft and very difficult to manually focus. Almost any good 50mm f1.4 performs better than this one at f1.4.  Other f/1.1 or f/0.95 don't differ much.

If you are after ultra/super shallow DOF type of lenses try LAOWA 35mm f0.95 or 45mm f0.95 or Mitakon Speedmaster 50mm f0.95. I know people who similar to me bought some of those lenses used them for some time for portraits then sold them. It is really a special tool, you definitely has to like this type of look.

Changed Lens Data in Camera Metadata. Entered lens type and name plus focal point (length) and distance.  All those changes didn't solve the problem. Would be interesting to know do you get the same black screen with gyro stabilization and vintage manual lenses.

Also did a test. Here are some observation:

1. It doesn't work with lenses that don't have electronic contact with the camera. Gyro data is there but after applying gyro type of stabilization in Resolve got a black screen. This may be a bug in the beta version but it's unlikely. Seems logical that software needs to know focal length of the lens.

2. Can it replace gimbal while walking ?  Short answer - no. OK to stabilize simple panning or static shots. With 60p + slow motion in post it can give almost gimbal like results. Good if you want to have a hand held like shots and feeling without the jitter. Still having a good shooting technique is essential. Unfortunately lens IS can't be used in conjunction with gyro stabilization. It is one or the other.

3. It doesn't compensate for up and down movement or does it in somehow subtle manner.

4. As already said and demonstrated it needs 45 degree shutter angle to work best which is not OK for me. Apart of slow motion and simple rather slow pans and static shots when shooting at 180 degree shutter angle it won't be practical.

5. Easy to apply in Resolve. As fast / slow as other types of stabilization in post.

6. Expect with time and new Resolve versions Blackmagic to give more control options to gyro type of stabilization.

Bottom line is: Good to have one more option for BMPCC line of cameras for hand held shooting but it has many limitations and won't replace tools and technique required to stabilize shots. It is not a game changer. This explain why it was not introduced with fanfare but rather quietly between lines by Blackmagic.

On a side note : With new firmware BMPCC 4K menus look now nicer. A lot of minor improvement to a 4 years + old camera. Well done Blackmagic !

Blackmagic already carved a solid place in cinema cameras business making RAW video available at a low price point. Camera picture quality is great, build quality not that much, but I guess this is the compromise to make for the low price point. If they come with a more compact and solidly build bodies and put a mirrorless mount in next generation of cameras this will be a step in the right direction even with expected price hike.

Last trend in movies is to use 2 or more different set of lenses from different manufactures including stills photography lenses. Using a set of cine color matched lenses from one manufacturer is no longer a rule. Just look for example at technical specs of Joker, No Time to Die, Tenet on IMDB. Joker is the most revealing in this regard: Arri Prime 65-S, Prime DNA, Zeiss Compact Prime, Vintage 765, Leica R, Canon CN-E and Nikon Nikkor Lenses.

Is it because they need/want to do different scenes with different visuals and atmosphere. Or because technically in the past when analog film was used cinematographers didn't have the tools to easily color match different lenses or film emulsions. Now it is easy to do it in post production. What do you think ?

Using completely different lenses from different manufacturer all the time is probably not a good idea as it will create more work for the colorist. But bottom line for me is that occasionally it can be done and there is one rule less to worry about. Especially if you are the colorist and have the time, patience and skills to do it 🙂

Will also test over the weekend. The beauty of this method is that we can do stabilization with gyro data in Resolve. Newer Sony cameras also have gyro data but stabilization is done in another program. It's additional and time consuming operation.

More that 3 years after a camera is out they keep updating the firmware and adding new features. To a 1000$ camera (BMPCC 4K in my case). Stabilization with gyro data is almost a game changer.  Hope it will work nicely.

How not to like Blackmagic.  😀 

WOW ! Really.  My plan was to sell BMPCC 4K, since Panasonic S5 became my main one. Now have to  pause and think again. 🤔 A little crop is really not a problem if it saves me the efforts to carry and use a gimble for some of the shots.

 @PannySVHS - Check Zeek's channel on youtube. He has good tutorials how to shoot raw video with EOS M.  Lots of tips and tricks.

You work all the time in live view mode that ML hack gives you. Histograms are used to measure exposure but I have found they are not perfect. If there is a strong source of light in the frame, measurements are not accurate and number misleading.  But it's RAW you have at least 3-4 stops of latitude for exposure, so no worries if exposure is not perfect. Just make sure you don't burn the highlights. With ML RAW hack I always tend to underexpose a bit especially if there is light source in the frame as a lamp for example. The opposite of what most people advise, ETTR and so on. 

in 1080p it is easy, you have correct live view on screen. Crop mode is very problematic as live view is a black and white image with 1fps refresh rate. According to Zeek you can now use external monitor for framing in crop mode but this never worked for me. 1080p has lots of moire and aliasing, crop mode is beautiful but difficult to shoot.

At the end frustration and quirks led me to the point to abandon  EOS M and ML RAW and sell the camera. Hopefully you'll have a better experience. 👍

5 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Perhaps Leica agrees to invest more of their profit from their $7000 re-skinned S1R into the alliance going forward. 

Yes it is most likely this, because developing new processor is very expensive. Most likely Panasonic sales are not enough to cover the cost. At the same time Leica depends on Panasonic for SL series. They will share the expenses, internals and maybe also large part of the firmware / software. On the market they occupy different niches  - Leica takes the premium high end segment and Panasonic mid to low end.

This all of course is just speculation.

https://www.l-rumors.com/leica-and-panasonic-signed-strategic-comprehensive-collaboration-agreement-and-develop-l2-technology-as-symbol-of-the-collaboration/