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Whenever I start thinking about the beginning of the DSLR revolution or the Digital Revolution, I take my own advice and go back to look at some old videos that I love from those forgotten cameras. This first round of films, from Kendy Ty and his t2i, I have linked to countless times, years ago, but I think they could be helpful or relevant to the OP's topic... If I remember correctly, he used the t2i and the old Sigma 30mm 1.4. I believe he even created his own picture profile, in camera, for his earlier films. Like so many others, he eventually moved onto a Sony 4K camera, but many people commented they preferred the look from his trusty, old t2i. If there's a lesson here, it's simple... sometimes less is more. Sometimes the tool that gets the job done and is simple to work with, is better than wading through the minutiae of features and tech finding the best camera.

To be fair, I vaguely remember the OP stating at some point that he/she likes to have discussions about gear. And let's be honest, this forum is primarily a gear forum. Perhaps the OP should mention that this discussion isn't necessarily about a decision he's currently planning on making and instead it's about learning and gathering information. With that said, @kye has a fair point. These cameras are only tools for creative endeavors. These cameras will not make the film or color grade your film or make your film good. At the end of the day, story is king. I would suggest to the OP that they take some time and go back and look what people were creating when the DSLR revolution began. Look at t2i and GH2 videos to see what was possible with limited resolution, DR and resources.

I had a faulty GX80 showing me a message a few seconds after power on: "Please Turn Camera Off and Then On Again". I knew it was the ibis failing because only one part of the sensor was static and the other part was very wobbly. So I dismantled my camera following this tutorial until I reached the 10th step. Once I had the ibis+sensor out of the camera, I only had to remove 3 screws and to separate the 2 flex of the sensor. Then, I realized one of the tree electromagnets had no continuity, and added some drop of tin to join the broken copper wire. And it's fixed and working again. I am so happy! I include an image of the point that was failing

Sigma have announced that they are releasing a range of RF mount lenses, indicating that Canon have softened their “no 3rd party lenses” stance. I say softened rather than abandoned as, whilst these lenses are fully licensed by them, they do not include any full frame lenses. At least for now. The initial offerings are the two f2.8 zooms and four f1.4 primes from Sigma’s Contemporary range that have been available in other mounts for a few years now. The 18-50mm is the first one that will be available but it is not until July and the others will follow in the Autumn. No word on prices but they are usually similar in different mounts so you can take that as a rough guide, although maybe there will be an additional cost on top for the official licensing from Canon. Good news for owners of crop RF cameras to have different options and also for people using the KOMODO (or maybe we should call it the NIKOMODO now). Full details here https://www.sigma-global.com/en/contents/sigma_rfmount_lenses/

And I'd be remiss if I didn't post this video from a British filmmaker named Paul Cook. It was the video that made me buy my 5D3 and install ML Raw on it and never look back. After 7 years, I'm still chasing what he was able to capture in an afternoon...

I agree. His Sony work does not respond to me, neither in the edit, premise, lengthyness, choice of focal lengths, camera movement nor framing nor color palette and contrast. @mercer That Sigma 30mm is a thing I had been keeping in my mind. I am a sucker for 28mm on S35. Kendys Canon work was magic, his Sony uploads on his channel are video imo. Besides colour, movement, framing and lensing are not in the same league as his Canon library imho. I can relate to the impact of a camera on freewheeling video essay work. I still hold a G70 in high regard for the mojo it has in HD 24p. The only two pieces I shot with it are still oozing color magic and forced me to design my shots and movements instead of gimbleing through the world rather effortlessly. No effort means no magic in most of the instances.

So there's a guy who lives near me - young guy, good looking - who 2 years ago gave up a film-making degree at a London university (can't remember which one - but a good one, I can remember thinking when he told me) to go on the tools with his dad, because he couldn't see any way that an expensive 3 year course was ever gong to wash its face. Was talking to his sister this evening and she reckons he'd be totally up for getting involved in my short. Which could mean I've either got talent that isn't me, or a camera op that isn't me. Either way, it suddenly makes this project a whole lot easier. (Not to mention Resolve 19 - which changes the space entirely!)

I highly recommend going to the source if you're interested in going deeper, here are a couple of interviews with Jill on Joker that I found to be fascinating and thought-provoking: ...and this interview with Jill on John Wick and other films where they even talk about specific shots etc: Lots of info out there if you search and go looking for it 🙂

I want one!

Here's my recommendation for SOOC shooting - Sony AX100. As Dave says "Sony AX100 looks better than your camera". Just look at the nice contrast, saturation, and above all... skintones! and in mixed lighting no less! Good luck getting that with a "better" camera - they all have far too much DR to give you a punchy image from their 709 LUTs or profiles.

If you stare at them for hours and hours then you start to notice differences and they start to look normal. That's how all the YT "cinematic" content now looks nothing like cinema. I just watched Kill Bill 1 again, and yeah, it might as well be a different universe... When the people who can create any image they like with virtually unlimited budget create images like these - contrasty and punchy and not sharp in the slightest, then the people who are pixel peeing the 6K cameras aren't even playing the same game.

DR of course is not world leading.... In less-than-ideal light is not great, but I would say better than the 1 inch that is surprising. You can see from the motion blur that probably it was 1/60 or less (no ND of course), but still some details in me and the bike.. Compared to 1 inch: In quality is definitely a big step forward, I honestly did not expect this much. I think a combination of more pixel, double bitrate and improvement in processing made it possible. Here an iPhone 15 Pro Max 4k screen grab....

PicoMic is still smaller and lighter, and the newer Pro version can use a lav mic. The receiver is bigger, but it's also the storage/charging dock for the transmitters, which is handy when you're going from mic'd to not mic'd, changing speakers often, etc. They just need internal recording and they'd be perfect IMO.

My impression was that people like the Alexa image for everything. The DR only matters if you're filming something that is high DR, and even then if you're watching it on a 709 display then the Alexa images have the same DR as every other camera. I also find that Alexas look green in camera tests, but probably the main reason for loving the Alexa look is that when used on big productions or by people that know how to use it, the images look great. However, the Alexa is just a very high quality RAW camera - the files that come out of it are as neutral as you can imagine. It's the paradox of modern camera discussions. The best looking images come from the most expensive cameras because the people who know that production design and colour grading is what makes great looking images are going to all that trouble anyway and so may as well rent an Alexa (or RED). Would the production have looked as good if they shot it on a P4K or S1H? I'd say maybe 95% as good - maybe 100%. But, because the people using the P4K or S1H aren't using them in situations where they've put as much effort into production design or colour grading, those images don't look as good. Not really my tastes. Riza does a lot of work to light herself really well, but the diffusion and colour grading aren't to my tastes. The image is too diffused and too cream and pastel green/brown for me. Most of that is in her production design, considering that the blue and yellow in this shot looks relatively normal: It's the "aesthetic" look that is trendy right now on YT, but Riza takes it to a whole new level. In a way it's similar to this palette: But compare the two shots above and notice that the bottom one is a lot crisper - Riza uses a huge amount of diffusion so everything looks hazy. Maybe it's just my associations.. when I grew up the interiors that were the right age to be old and shitty were the Mission Brown ones, and compared to the colour schemes of the time it just looked drab and dull, which combined with the fact it was old and falling apart, really didn't enamour it to me! I suspect that for the cultural references of the people making this content right now, this probably balances out the previous aesthetic choices in a way that makes them feel better about themselves and about life etc. In times of change people get pretty stressed and going for a soft brown and green palette it's probably unconsciously evoking nature and naturalness in some way - which makes sense if you think about the existential threats of climate change and AI that we are currently facing. People of this age are having climate anxiety in a big way, so it's a real thing in their world.

I agree (having owned 10 of their hybrid cameras and 2 camcorders in the last 15 years). Panasonic has a long heritage in professional video (going back over 60 years) and it shows. I think the GH5 became a very popular camera for video because it was a good all-round, reliable, video tool in most situations, rather than excelling in any particular area at the expense of others or having a specific SOOC 'look'. For a bit of fun, this is 9 year old, basically SOOC, FHD 50p video from a Panasonic LX7 'enthusiast compact' with a small 10MP 1/1.7" sensor. There's some obvious aliasing/jaggies and I think the reds/oranges in particular are exaggerated. But for a camera launched in 2012 that fitted in the palm of one hand and weighed 270g I think it is reasonably decent (and could be improved in post). SOOC video from a G6, GX85 or G80 would leave it in the dust though, having much less aliasing and better balanced colours.

Yeah I heard the original question, and I think that while the posts diving into complex grading are fascinating and useful to those of us who do post, I know that getting good color SOOC is a separate question. One big point about your question is that it doesn't break down by manufacturer. Not all REDs look the same, not all Sonys look the same, etc. I think the Sony FX6 looks fine, but I dislike the FS7. Also, most cameras have different profiles. Sometimes, there is greater difference between profiles on the same camera, than between normal/natural/standard/default/whatever profiles on many different cameras. And even within a profile, you'll have totally different results based on how many controls you leave on auto (such as WB) and your lens. SOOC and minimal grading are completely different. SOOC excludes log profiles, for one thing. There is budget as well. Best SOOC ever? Alexa 35, probably. Under $10k? C500mkII gets my vote. Under $2k? Nikon Z6 is solid. Are you including lenses in your budget? I like the color out of my Canon L 24-105 better than that of my Canon 50 1.8 (tested on Sony A7rII). Though I have also used terrible lenses for specific scenes, specifically to make them less appealing. If you want a specific answer or even a specific discussion, ask a more specific question because your original question is extremely open ended--which is fine to start with! But it's probably more useful and interesting to narrow the parameters a bit.

I like the look of it too. I think what it is benefitting from greatly, aside from the compositions, image quality and general shooting competency, is what I would call accidental environmental production design. The uniforms and demeanour of the subjects are consistent and tie together as does the station setting and its train and staff. When the shots are framed, as many of them are, to only include those elements then it provides the right aesthetic to sell the "cinematic" image. The proof of that, for me at least, is when other none designed elements stray into the frame and not just the obvious of modern vehicles etc but onlookers with modern clothes (particularly those out of the general colour palette) then the illusion is gone and quite jarring to be taken out of it. No amount of obsessive grading is going to cure that. Oh and the use of a tripod does absolutely no harm whatsoever in this as does the flattish light of what I am guessing is the archetypal overcast Bank Holiday day in the UK. All in all, aside from it being a good advert for a camera from "yesteryear" in modern terms, I also think this is more broadly a very good example of why "cinematic" doesn't just happen when wafting a camera at random scenes no matter what YouTube thumbnails will scream at you. When it comes to trying to do this in the wild, its definitely a case of granting ourselves the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the skill and vision to change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Update is live: https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/ff/dl/s5m2x.html

More examples of bad lighting. This was a 709 shot from my GF3, which obviously couldn't auto-WB far enough to compensate (yes, this looked white in person): My best attempt at grading in post also couldn't compensate well enough: But the real demonstration is on a project. Here's a camera test I shot. These are the images after grading: They all look pretty straight-forward, but it took a lot of work to get to that. Here are the shots SOOC: Note that adjacent shots have considerably different looks - SOOC: After: Obviously I've let the flaring lower the contrast on the middle images to a certain extent because otherwise it would look too forced, but the tint of the first image and second ones needed to be evened out as one had the sun in it and the other didn't. I've shot these tests by the beach many times, using many different cameras (OG BMPCC, BMMCC, GH5, GX85, XC10, GF3, iPhone, GoPro, etc), shooting manually and in auto, in RAW / LOG / 709, etc etc. All required decent amounts of work in post to even them out and look normal. It's like anything - the natural look takes the most amount of work and is, in reality, the least natural. You keep saying you want nice looking images without doing any/much work, but I've been working super hard at this for quite some years now and it's just not possible. You either get nice looking images with work, or you wave the camera around and you get out what you put in - a film that looks like a dad with a handycam. The myth that you can buy it was created by equipment manufacturers trying to sell you cameras and LUT bros on YT trying to sell their LUT packs.

🤷‍♂️ It looks great to me. I'm not looking for an image that looks exactly like reality. It's definitely desaturated, but I don't agree that it's low contrast. No offense to the photographer of that shot, but that looks like it could have been shot with any standard profile from a camcorder in auto mode. As far as... how can I judge the image... look at the skin tones... the weight of the image. It looks and feels like a real movie.

Both of those cameras are great, you should get one. What are you shooting with now?

BMD’s menu system and OS is already designed around a 4-5” screen. It’s a great OS and menu too! To make one for a two inch screen would require a complete redesign. Im not sure they would save much money by doing this TBH. I think the side screen works. Means you can change settings and get a visual, useful if rigging the camera on a gimble, car etc just for lining up.

It’s also an ‘updated’ film noire approach for the 2020’s. There’s also a nod I think to Wes Anderson, but not in a comedic way and almost every single frame is a like a work of art. The locations, the lighting, the framing, how one frame leads in to another… My kind of filmmaking.

Making a film is one of the hardest things I've ever attempted... especially in a DIY, low/no budget space... but it's also one of the most exhilarating experiences I've ever had... even if ai haven't been successful with finishing the film... Yet.

It’s not just because the B&W makes it ‘arty’. The script is great, taking what was originally a book, then a French film, then the well known Matt Damon movie and now an 8x near 1 hour episode series. The acting is great. The cinematography IMO is superb. I have zero criticisms of it and that is rare for me.

And the utter lack of it has me admiring Ripley on Netflix right now. I’m partly thinking the Amalfi coast should be in colour, but the rest is definitely working for me as a B&W production. Of course it would look shite if the coastal stuff was colour whilst the rest was B&W but chapeau on this 8 parter, I think it’s great. Sorry it’s not a Joker II comment 😛

One of the reasons that people are getting frustrated is that you're "asking basic questions," but then basically ignoring a lot of the answers. It's like you keep asking what saw makes the best cabinets. When people tell you that you need more than a saw, you start asking people to compare brands of saws. Which cameras has the best color and in-camera noise reduction? All of them. Also, none of them. Go to NAB and ask 100 people on the floor. Every one of them will be completely correct. Every one of them will be completely incorrect. How do you know? Ask almost any of the others. It is also a bit frustrating that you are asking questions that seem like you are trying to choose which camera to buy and after you receive a bunch of answers, you shift your focus and start asking again. If you want somebody to yell at you about which camera has the best colors, go to YouTube. There are dozens of people shouting about how the camera that they bought is the best camera ever. Then just try to ignore the other videos from all the people saying it's the worst camera ever. Heck, there are already dozens of videos just about the Pyxis talking about how it's the best camera released in years or the most ho-hum camera announcement so far this year. Bonus: almost none of the people with those videos has even seen a Pyxis in person, much less actually shot with one.

Same! The color really brought us into a different/alternate universe!

I just realized - I did come to the wrong forum. I just assumed this was a wider community than what actually is. Many view themselves as filmmakers. I do not, I’m sure there’s other forums/places to chat just about equipment etc and not ruffle weathers of those who see themselves as “filmmakers”.

Actually unreservedly loved it. I'm finding that I'm gradually getting further and further away from preferring verite/realistic looks and getting into the wilder end of things!

I'm just wondering why you were posting a random YT video. If I posted a new thread with every video I liked then the place would just look like my YT viewing history and not a forum where discussions can happen and people can share knowledge etc. I don't know what experiences you had in high school, but I've been an adult a long time and I've become fond of talking to people. I really don't know what you were trying to say? What point were you trying to make? Maybe if you actually typed something then there might be some communication....? There are all sorts of interesting things in that video, so the discussion could be a good one. Let's all leave high school behind and try and discuss things like adults 🙂

Below is an approximate comparison of transfer curve for various Log and Sony's three versions of HLG. From the Bolex PDF above: The three versions of HLG that Sony cameras support (from https://xtremestuff.net/sony-and-hybrid-log-gamma-hlg/ ) - HLG3 (upper curve) is the closest to the Rec. 2100 standard : A chart of various Log formats from https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64243940 (note the 3 EV spread in the high EV limit between the various curves). The highest DR curves look to be C-Log2, S-Log3 and V-Log - but of course they do that by being flatter in the important mid-range area i.e. fewer levels per EV, increasing the chance of banding if pushed too far in post. Note this chart is -10 to +10 EV vs. IRE 0 to 110%, the other two are -8 to +8 EV vs. 10-bit digital code values.

They are not even dreaming of the same game, nor the craft, the passion or the work connected to a 3min narrative or a short experimental visual etude.

But how much of that is due to relatively small differences in brightness, contrast and saturation (all of which can be adjusted in post and usually in-camera by tweaking the picture profiles)? We are all used to colours changing due to natural lighting variation, and most people are drawn to bright, colourful, vibrant scenes - which is why the 'standard' profile on cameras is often relatively high in contrast and saturation to produce 'punchy' looking stills and video. When comparing cameras (if I'm thinking about buying one), I'm much more concerned about unnatural image distortions, like aliasing, moire (especially the false-colour variety), compression artefacts (e.g. banding and blockiness) and noise - because those can be distracting and not as easily dealt with later.

Looks like it's only a problem with the nisi vnd

If you're looking for SOOC color, you probably want a decent amount of SOOC noise reduction. If you're working on a project which will have reasonable post-production work done, you want the least (or no) noise reduction in camera. Tools like the denoiser in Resolve, Neat Video, and Topaz Video AI give a better result as well as giving you a lot more control of the trade-offs of noise vs lost details and plastic/wax skin.

I had a chance to test this, it does look like the extra green shadow noise introduced by the new autofocus is somewhat reduced by shooting at the higher base ISO 4000 if the situation allows for it. So shooting with an ND could work.

I especially love the second shot. @mercerLooks fantastic. I have not come around filming anything for almost a year now unfortunately. All my colabs have moved themselves into the shady hideaways of oblivion and my aspirations to be a full time crewmember have been very low after my accident I had on a job. But your posts are some of the very few on this forum which inspire me to start filming again. S35 is fine for me on my S1H btw.:) Also waiting for some more fine reads from @QuickHitRecord 😊

im going to be very honest, i think its crazy you can see the difference between cameras with their stock 709 lut. To me they all look samey, boring and bland.

I should have qualified my comment to say that it only related to my personal preference using 10-bit HLG and OMLog400 from the OM-1 - I've never used HLG or Log from other cameras. I'd actually prefer to shoot in a modified version of one of the standard picture profiles on the OM-1, but they are not available in 10-bit mode - HLG or Log are the only choices. It's interesting how different the log transfer curves can be on different brands and cameras (scroll down the pages to the step chart images) e.g. OM-1 - https://www.optyczne.pl/59.3-Inne_testy-OM_System_OM-1_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html GH6 - https://www.optyczne.pl/62.3-Inne_testy-Panasonic_Lumix_GH6_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html A6700 - https://www.optyczne.pl/79.3-Inne_testy-Sony_A6700_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html FX3 - https://www.optyczne.pl/46.3-Inne_testy-Sony_FX3_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html R7 - https://www.optyczne.pl/65.3-Inne_testy-Canon_EOS_R7_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html C70 - https://www.optyczne.pl/48.3-Inne_testy-Canon_EOS_C70_-_test_kamery_Użytkowanie.html S5ii - https://www.optyczne.pl/70.3-Inne_testy-Panasonic_Lumix_S5_II_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html XH2 - https://www.optyczne.pl/66.3-Inne_testy-Fujifilm_X-H2_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

Unfortunately, it is a consumer device. @kye I agree with you that they should do a pro model, ideally dual 1 inch, SD UHS-III, 800+ Mbits, 10 bit LOG and better DR. With the revival of VR (Vision Pro, Quest 3) there may be more demand for VR180 and 360 content that may push Insta to create a pro model and maybe even 180 3D one.... time will tell.... Anyway, finally there is a noticeable step forward in quality after years of stagnation....

Don't get me wrong, I WANT these things to be good. If they could make a 360 camera that was high-quality enough then it would be useful for filming in very busy situations and you could crop out the interesting moments in post. The issue is that even if they had 27K resolution, the fact they only have 200Mbps means that any crop that isn't an extreme wide angle just isn't good enough. I mean, 12Mbps of h265 is similar to 24Mbps of h264, but seriously... imagine that someone released a camera in 2024 that was 24Mbps! ....and if you want a camera angle tighter than that? You're practically pixel-peeping. I'm not even asking for much - V90 SD cards are common these days and they can write at 720Mbps. Having an EXTREME PRO mode in the camera that has a maxed out bitrate wouldn't be that hard - these things are premium products.

In good light the X4 is just on another planet compared to the 1 inch. Is not apple to apple as is the same location, mount but different time of the year but still I could never get such details from the 1 inch or the R. Just look at the mountains in the background and the detail on me.... Unprocessed screen grab from 8k 30, 200 mbits, sharpening low Processed X4 Processed 1 inch from 5.7 30 I will compare also in low light, but for a first quick look I feel they both look similarly bad 😉

Indeed there is! They were smart to choose the Z Cam EVF for it so they won't need a separate wireless transmitter (though there will be a bit of lag with the Ninja in-between). That one's been discussed here, I think. Should fit in a niche somewhere, though with DSMC2 VV cameras selling and renting at pretty reasonable prices, I'm not sure what that niche might be. 😅

My prediction is: 1: Add 8k RED raw to high end MILC's such as the Z9 or its successor. 6k to lower tier stuff such as the Z6 line... 2: Develop a cine line of their own in tandem with a RED line but a few differences, a bit like Lumix SL2 and Leica S1R (see what I did there?) ie, just boxed and badged slightly differently. 3: The next RED camera will have Z Mount as will any/all future RED cameras and RF for one final fling...if at all, before cutting Canon completely out of the loop. Summary: Nikon have come back strong in the last couple of years, especially with the Z9, Z8, Zf and probably Z6iii and I expect that market share and their image to continue to improve. I expect them to push now into the video/cine market much more than they have with just hybrid MILC cameras and develop a dedicated cine line akin to Sony, so FX3, FX6, FX9, Burano... The appeal and their market will be to 'prosumers', hybrid event shooter people like me, indie filmmakers and the commercial market plus maybe some 'Hollywood' budget level productions, but won't oust Arri or Sony from that perch, ie, will be niche in that regard. Nothing else makes any sense to me. But what do I know, I ain't exactly Quasimodo. (Got to be a boxing fan to get that one) 😜

Was this guy responsible for the genius idea of putting a CFE card inside Red mini mag and charge 10x?

I believe it only offers a S35 crop. Due to the compression methods from the 6K sensor, some say that the S35 crop is superior... but I didn't buy a FF camera to shoot in S35. And the difference is probably minimal and I don't care about minimal. But as usual, I'm probably the weirdo here, because I still prefer good 1080p over run of the mill 4K. For instance, I mentioned earlier that I think some lenses shine with certain cameras. After thorough testing, most lenses look pretty good in 4K. By that I mean, most vintage lenses have a certain level of sharpness that is good enough due to the 4K. In fact, I think vintage lenses help to tame the sharpness... resolution of 4K. Now with my 5D3/ML Raw, some of those same lenses just don't work. But with a more modern lens, the image looks really good, in my opinion better than the FP. Here's a shot from the 5D3 with the older non-Art Sigma 50mm 1.4... And here are a couple shots of the Takumar on the 5D3... Obviously, they're different shots so in some ways they're incomparable... And here's a B&W shot with the Tak on the 5D3 that's a lot more interesting... So what's my point... I have way more options than I need and B&W makes everything look cooler. That is all.

I'm fed up with Atomos, I wasted a huge amount of time doing tests for them for the stuttering issue in ProRes RAW. They didn't even try to replicate it. I reported the problem at the 8th of February, since then I provided tons of test material. And where are we now? They still think it's my unit, or my SSD or my HDMI cable even when I told them I tested with multiple units, multiple cables and SSDs. Unbelievable. In the meantime some other guy asked BlackMagic about the same issue (so apparently this is related the the X-H2s), and they sent it to their engineering team right away, they reproduced it and notified Fujifilm about it. HUGE difference between the two supports. Seriously, even Fuji is better than Atomos, because they don't reply at all, so you won't waste your time with them 🙂

So I have un update on this. I had somehow missed some firmware update that was supposed to fix a stabilization bug. The IBIS could stop working after a WB setting or something along these lines. I flashed the FW v.1.3 and it seems to be working correctly now. I obviously want to test it a bit longer but first observations are encouraging! 🙂

I remember a similar thing came up a couple of years ago and a fix that apparently worked was to rotate it a couple of times around its axis. It might be worth a go.