sanveer Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 These tests of the A7S show how the internal processing on the A7S in Jpeg (and presumably video), is rather complex. Comparing RAW images for noise and dynamic range among other things may not be suitable. I feel the colours have been muted slightly, but that has somehow pushed the Dynamic Range across the various ISO settings. I feel DXO labs did not conduct their tests accurately. I could be wrong. It's jusr my opinion.http://m.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/sony-a7s-1255921/review?src=rss&attr=all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeys Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 DXO has rarely been wrong with their measurements - Sony's probably doing some pretty clever tricks on the image processing side. sanveer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 DXO has rarely been wrong with their measurements - Sony's probably doing some pretty clever tricks on the image processing side. I completely agree. I like the DXO lab testing. But, I feel, that not only is the Sony sensor superb, even their algorithms are great, especially for doing what Neat Noise or Neat Video does, within the camera itself. After looking at the various videos, I would even think its in the league of something like Cinnafilm's Dark Energy (I am obviously pushing it). I would like to see someone test the ISO 409600 range, and then try and clean it in post. I am curious as to the level of detail on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 DxO is completely irrelevant for video shooters. Unless you are shooting Magic Lantern Raw. Yes, it might give a suggestion of the capabilities, but it all depends on the internal processing of the raw data, so it can get either worse or better than the DxO results. Also, I'd take the Techradar results with a grain of salt. I often see results in their graphs that are completely different from other lab tests. Like this one. Look at GH4 dynamic range in raw, I wish it was that good! No way it has between 13-11 stops over the whole iso 100 - 25.600 range. DxO looks much more reliably to me if you look at the DR measurements: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Panasonic/Lumix-DMC-GH4---Measurements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael1 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 These tests of the A7S show how the internal processing on the A7S in Jpeg (and presumably video), is rather complex. Comparing RAW images for noise and dynamic range among other things may not be suitable. I feel the colours have been muted slightly, but that has somehow pushed the Dynamic Range across the various ISO settings. I feel DXO labs did not conduct their tests accurately. I could be wrong. It's jusr my opinion.http://m.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/sony-a7s-1255921/review?src=rss&attr=all I don't think I understand why you think they made mistakes for the a7S, or somehow the tests are wrong only for the a7S. If you don't do the same tests for all cameras, then you don't have anything. Michael dahlfors 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael1 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 DxO is completely irrelevant for video shooters. Unless you are shooting Magic Lantern Raw. Yes, it might give a suggestion of the capabilities, but it all depends on the internal processing of the raw data, so it can get either worse or better than the DxO results. Also, I'd take the Techradar results with a grain of salt. I often see results in their graphs that are completely different from other lab tests. Like this one. Look at GH4 dynamic range in raw, I wish it was that good! No way it has between 13-11 stops over the whole iso 100 - 25.600 range. DxO looks much more reliably to me if you look at the DR measurements: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Panasonic/Lumix-DMC-GH4---Measurements I about fell off my chair when I saw this Tech Radar chart with the GH4 being up there. Based on other graphs I found, it looks like it is blowing every other camera out of the water, including the D600, D800, 5DMk3. I wish it was true, but I'm not believing this. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I don't think I understand why you think they made mistakes for the a7S, or somehow the tests are wrong only for the a7S. If you don't do the same tests for all cameras, then you don't have anything. Michael Well they did test it with a "pre-release" firmware and only afterwards Sony came forwards with the release firmware that should have 15.3 stops in RAW. So there's atleast one mistake already. And how do they always get Nikon/Sony made sensor cameras to test so easily but never Fuji? I think they're mainly for marketing for certain firms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 A day after their test release, Sony released a firmware claiming increased dynamic range in raw to 15.3, which means it was less before the release. I would like DxO to comment whether they tested it after or before the firmware upgrade, and whether there's a change at all or not. It would be great if they can clear it up with a simple comment, so we would know if Sony's claims are false, or if the tests are incorrect. The comment asking this on their page seems to be one of the few unanswered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 A day after their test release, Sony released a firmware claiming increased dynamic range in raw to 15.3, which means it was less before the release. I would like DxO to comment whether they tested it after or before the firmware upgrade, and whether there's a change at all or not. It would be great if they can clear it up with a simple comment, so we would know if Sony's claims are false, or if the tests are incorrect. The comment asking this on their page seems to be one of the few unanswered. Aaaaah, ok. Interesting. I didn't know that. Maybe DXO Labs should answer it and quickly. Otherwise both Sony and DXO Labs seems to be overstating things a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 16, 2014 Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2014 DxO is completely irrelevant for video shooters. Unless you are shooting Magic Lantern Raw. Yes, it might give a suggestion of the capabilities, but it all depends on the internal processing of the raw data, so it can get either worse or better than the DxO results. Also, I'd take the Techradar results with a grain of salt. I often see results in their graphs that are completely different from other lab tests. Like this one. Look at GH4 dynamic range in raw, I wish it was that good! No way it has between 13-11 stops over the whole iso 100 - 25.600 range. DxO looks much more reliably to me if you look at the DR measurements: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Panasonic/Lumix-DMC-GH4---Measurements TechRadar say they use equipment and software supplied by DxO to do the testing. You'd think after a result like that they would stop and check their methods. Clearly some kind of operator error! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeys Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Well they did test it with a "pre-release" firmware and only afterwards Sony came forwards with the release firmware that should have 15.3 stops in RAW. So there's atleast one mistake already. And how do they always get Nikon/Sony made sensor cameras to test so easily but never Fuji? I think they're mainly for marketing for certain firms. I'm guessing Fujifilm's X-Trans sensor crashes their software. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 TechRadar say they use equipment and software supplied by DxO to do the testing. You'd think after a result like that they would stop and check their methods. Clearly some kind of operator error! It's not the first time I see a weird graph like that on TechRadar. I never valued their tests much personally... For example: Look at the Nikon D700 graph. So you should shoot at ISO 3200 instead of 1600? the signal to noise ratio is suddenly as good as at ISO 100? - Everybody who has ever used this camera knows this isn't true. The EOS 60D has a just under 10 stops of dynamic range from ISO 100 to 3200? Not true. A day after their test release, Sony released a firmware claiming increased dynamic range in raw to 15.3, which means it was less before the release. I would like DxO to comment whether they tested it after or before the firmware upgrade, and whether there's a change at all or not. I don't believe a firmware upgrade can give a sensor suddenly two stops of extra dynamic range. The RAW image data (like DXO tests) is really up to the hardware Maybe with S-Log you can squeeze out more dynamic range cause of image processing, but DXO tests will never show these kind of results because they test raw sensor data. I'm guessing Fujifilm's X-Trans sensor crashes their software. :P DXO never tested a X-Trans sensor either. Understandable since those camera's work different - you can even see this in Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom. So it probably doesn't work with their test methods. Same goes for Sigma Foveon chips. Never seen DXO-like tests of those. Just the conventional bayer sensor cameras. Andrew Reid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Turberville Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I don't believe a firmware upgrade can give a sensor suddenly two stops of extra dynamic range. The RAW image data (like DXO tests) is really up to the hardware Maybe with S-Log you can squeeze out more dynamic range cause of image processing, but DXO tests will never show these kind of results because they test raw sensor data. Right - unless the previous firmware was significantly faulty. S-Log shouldn't affect DR results either. What can affect results is noise reduction because it lowers the apparent noise threshold in the darker tones. But that is misleading since it reduces resolution/detail as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 By the way: the '15.3 stops firmware', is the lauch firmware: V1.0, which comes with all final production camera's. DXO usually tests production camera's, if not, they note it is a pre production model. In case of the A7S they don't, so I'd assume they tested with firmware V1.0. Also interesting is the fact that Sony actually gives a real number for dynamic range. Camera companies never do that. Ever seen Canon, Nikon, Pentax or whatever advertise with the amount of stops of DR a camera has? I haven't. It's just the cinema camera companies that do this (RED, ARRI, BMD). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Turberville Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 By the way: the '15.3 stops firmware', is the lauch firmware: V1.0, which comes with all final production camera's. DXO usually tests production camera's, if not, they note it is a pre production model. In case of the A7S they don't, so I'd assume they tested with firmware V1.0. Also interesting is the fact that Sony actually gives a real number for dynamic range. Camera companies never do that. Ever seen Canon, Nikon, Pentax or whatever advertise with the amount of stops of DR a camera has? I haven't. It's just the cinema camera companies that do this (RED, ARRI, BMD). Part of the reason is that you have to establish some standard threshold for noise in the darker tones. And this threshold is somewhat subjective. I did a lot of DR testing using Imatest and the software gave multiple results for different noise thresholds. It is up to the user to decide which threshold is appropriate. This is one reason why you should be VERY careful about drawing conclusions about DR when the results come from different sources. One of the big values of DxO testing is that the testing schemes are very consistent. But as mentioned previously, those results can only be considered strong hits about what to expect when shooting video from the same sensor.Not only is there variations in processing of the raw data to consider, but the fact that video uses an electronic shutter may have influence (more noise) as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted July 16, 2014 Administrators Share Posted July 16, 2014 I don't understand why the hell tech radar are converting everything to TIFF rather than testing the raw files, because the software supports the raw files from all the leading cameras that DXOMark themselves have tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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