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Would You Perhaps Be Interested In A Different GX80/85 Colour Profile???

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

For those wondering which settings to use with Cinelike D, I'd recommend starting off with Sharpening at -3, Noise Reduction at -5. I wouldn't reduce saturation as it's already low, and I see no benefit in dialing contrast down either, since you'll just end up increasing contrast in post anyhow. You can maximize dynamic range even further by exposing to the right, at least when at base ISO, which I believe is either ISO 200 or ISO 400. Set your zebras to 100% and narrow the aperture until the stripes disappear from the important areas of the image. Underexposing (with the histogram to the left) will only negate any benefits you get from using a profile with a wider dynamic range. I used to be afraid of clipping, but as long as the brightest areas in the subject aren't reaching 100 IRE, you can then reduce luminance in post, and retain all that detail and color.

Hey Jon, not to be contrary, but I've always followed Noam Kroll's suggestions for CineLikeD... Con 0, Sharp -5, NR -5, Sat -5. Now he actually prefers CineLikeV in most instances, especially outdoors in bright sun and in CineLikeV he flips Contrast and Saturation, so Con -5, Sharp -5, NR -5, Sat 0. never really tried CineLikeV because I was always pleased with his recommended settings for CineLikeD. 

I also always underexposed CineLikeD by a 1/3 of a stop to dead center. I think @kidzrevil said he read the Panasonic white papers and that's what they suggest for the curve as well. If you use zebras, I would think 85-90% would probably be a better setting.

I am not a fan of ETTR for 8bit footage. Too much info will be blown and the contrast curve will be out of whack. 

Of course if it works for you, then who am I to say. 

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38 minutes ago, mercer said:

Hey Jon, not to be contrary, but I've always followed Noam Kroll's suggestions for CineLikeD... Con 0, Sharp -5, NR -5, Sat -5. Now he actually prefers CineLikeV in most instances, especially outdoors in bright sun and in CineLikeV he flips Contrast and Saturation, so Con -5, Sharp -5, NR -5, Sat 0. never really tried CineLikeV because I was always pleased with his recommended settings for CineLikeD. 

I also always underexposed CineLikeD by a 1/3 of a stop to dead center. I think @kidzrevil said he read the Panasonic white papers and that's what they suggest for the curve as well. If you use zebras, I would think 85-90% would probably be a better setting.

I am not a fan of ETTR for 8bit footage. Too much info will be blown and the contrast curve will be out of whack. 

Of course if it works for you, then who am I to say. 

I agree on this too. Since Cinelike D actually brightens the Shadows a lot more than the highlights, it may be a good idea to bring down the highlights. 

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7 hours ago, robbino said:

Another useful command to list the options available is:

<P><A HREF="http://192.168.54.1/cam.cgi?mode=getinfo&type=allmenu">All Menu</A></P>

Attached is the XML file it produces.

 

allmenu.txt

Well, in my G80 "All Menu" may be all the official menu that camera shows, in many languajes that camera support. (no new funtions here)

That will be the reason for no name displaying when new funtion is activated.

The other "Options Available" seens to be those interesting hidden features (200mbps, vlog-l, etc)

What is the correct synthax to implement Vlog request to the deploy.html file if  my "options available" page show this lines:

<item enable="no" id="menu_item_id_ph_sty_vlog_l" option="detail"/>

<item enable="no" id="menu_item_id_v_quality_mp4ed_c24p_200mbps"/>

<item enable="no" id="menu_item_id_v_quality_mov_c24p_200mbps"/>

<item enable="no" id="menu_item_id_v_quality_mov_24p_200mbps"/>

Thanks in advance!

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I think I mentioned earlier in the thread but those are messages from the camera to the app to tell it what items to give the user access to.

Its one piece of the puzzle in that you can still construct set commands based on them (or estimates of what they will be) but the camera will not necessarily action them and you will generally get an "err_parameter" message in your browser.

An example of this would be to send :

http://192.168.54.1/cam.cgi?mode=setsetting&type=videoquality&value=mp4ed_c24p_100mbps_c4K

Sending this will be actioned by Panasonic cameras that have the functionality enabled but won't be by those that won't.

In this respect, it is pure good fortune that although Cinelike D and V are not enabled in the app the camera will actually activate them if we send it the commands.

There are other examples such as the ISO50000 mode and 23 point AF mode that aren't listed but I was able to get working.

You will also see this selective rejection when you have the camera in PAL mode, you can send it NTSC based formats such as 1080p60 but it will reject them.

If you then boot the camera using the multi button diagnostic mode into NTSC region you will be able to send them and it will action them.

We can only presume that Panasonic had it in mind to have Cinelike D and V in the GX80 and left it in there.

Something unusual happens when you tell it to go into one of the high bitrate 1080p modes in that it switches to 4K24p so its not entirely rejecting it but its also not doing it either.

Again, I'll say that the LX100 is doing something odd with the Cinelike commands so there might be something worth tinkering with there.

For now, I'm only concentrating on looking at command stuff for my hardware box (which is all I was originally intending to be tinkering with this stuff for anyway before I uncovered the Cinlike thing!) so hopefully now so many of you are using this you might all find some new stuff with your own experiments.

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9 hours ago, mercer said:

Hey Jon, not to be contrary, but I've always followed Noam Kroll's suggestions for CineLikeD... Con 0, Sharp -5, NR -5, Sat -5. Now he actually prefers CineLikeV in most instances, especially outdoors in bright sun and in CineLikeV he flips Contrast and Saturation, so Con -5, Sharp -5, NR -5, Sat 0. never really tried CineLikeV because I was always pleased with his recommended settings for CineLikeD. 

I also always underexposed CineLikeD by a 1/3 of a stop to dead center. I think @kidzrevil said he read the Panasonic white papers and that's what they suggest for the curve as well. If you use zebras, I would think 85-90% would probably be a better setting.

I am not a fan of ETTR for 8bit footage. Too much info will be blown and the contrast curve will be out of whack. 

Of course if it works for you, then who am I to say. 

yeah panasonic whitepapers put the cine curves white point at 90 IRE. The only difference between cine v and d in the highlights is the fact that cine d doesn't apply a knee in the portion of the curve above 90 so the clipping looks worse than in cine v. I personally use Cine v as well for the improved highlight rolloff and ettr to 90 zebras at default settings -5nr and -3 sharpness

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This is awesome work BTM, seriously nice job.  It makes using the gx85 and lx100 more attractive to shoot with, being my choice for compact size cams with the bmpcc.  Pocket-sized latitude for the grade!

Can someone confirm if CineV settings also aren't working properly on lx100? 

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2 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

yeah panasonic whitepapers put the cine curves white point at 90 IRE. The only difference between cine v and d in the highlights is the fact that cine d doesn't apply a knee in the portion of the curve above 90 so the clipping looks worse than in cine v. I personally use Cine v as well for the improved highlight rolloff and ettr to 90 zebras at default settings -5nr and -3 sharpness

But... I've been shooting ETTR with highlights set at 100% now for a while, and I'm not seeing the bizarre tonal changes or clipping some here are referring to. What I am seeing though are a lot of videos here exposed to the left with very limited dynamic range. 

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7 hours ago, jonpais said:

But... I've been shooting ETTR with highlights set at 100% now for a while, and I'm not seeing the bizarre tonal changes or clipping some here are referring to. What I am seeing though are a lot of videos here exposed to the left with very limited dynamic range. 

Yes, same here for the last 3 years. Clipping occurs at 100% so easy to avoid with zebras at that setting. A good starting off point. The GH4 in particular was very noisy in the shadows so lifting as high as possible without clipping was invariably the way to go. But as they say, you pays your money and makes your choice. Horses and water and all that stuff.

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Any development on the LX100 Cinelike? THis would be really unique. The GX85 is to close to the G85 in price so is no not a big deal. Just for those who have already bought it. But there inst nothing like the LX100 yet, for the price, with this kind of flat profiles..

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11 hours ago, jonpais said:

But... I've been shooting ETTR with highlights set at 100% now for a while, and I'm not seeing the bizarre tonal changes or clipping some here are referring to. What I am seeing though are a lot of videos here exposed to the left with very limited dynamic range. 

Whatever works for you. I tested 90,100 & 105 ire and colors shift as soon as the exposure goes above 90. Again whatever works for you, I see the difference in my work as clear as day and will not shoot over 90 ire.

 

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Using the ruse of wanting to "compare its wifi control to my FZ1000" ;) , I spent a few minutes packet capturing an FZ2000 app session in a camera store earlier to get some examples of it sending the 100 and 200mbps 1080p setting to the camera.

The commands were formed exactly as I was expecting them to be so confirms my findings that although the camera will accept them it won't properly action them but it will change to 4K24p instead. This is a different behaviour to when you send an outright "illegal" setting (i.e. a PAL rate when its in NTSC region and vice versa) where it returns an error. Whether it simply reverts to its uppermost setting when given a request that it doesn't reject but can't find an actual match for I don't know but the end result is the same in that it doesn't get us anywhere.

With regard to the LX100, the Cinelike D and V are acting almost completely the reverse to how you would expect them to in that it massively saturates the colour! However, it also completely and I mean completely canes the black level. I've got a hunch that with the LX100 being such a close relative of the GH4 that there might be something involving an interaction with the master pedestal level and/or the luma level which are changeable on the GH4 but not on the LX100. If someone who has an LX100 could try this and see what you think. It might be correctable with changing a combination of the saturation/contrast/shadow/highlight controls to bring it into line and if it is then it shouldn't be an issue for the Deploy function to combine the string of changes into one click.

I stress might though !

And I can't look at anything to do with this for the next four or five days at least now while I'm away doing the day job assignment so don't hold your breath.

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19 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

I tested 90,100 & 105 ire and colors shift as soon as the exposure goes above 90. I see the difference in my work as clear as day and will not shoot over 90 ire.

 

The phrase "whatever works for you", especially in the repeated usage, really comes across as condescending towards the mod. With it removed your post is much more readable! I do appreciate that you've added a video in support of your workflow. I suggest your discussion of ire clipping levels move to another thread, new if you like, as this is distracting from the good work of BTM_Pix. 

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Or move the BTM_Pix  hack to another topic.

@BTM_Pix Whats is the method your are using for sniffing/capturing packages from the camera-app communication? 

I can try it with G80 and share with you the results if you want.

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It's been a little while now since BTM_Pix shared his hack for the GX80, but still no sample footage. I'd be interested to see whether the profile really resembles Cinelike D in the G85. The following is straight out of the camera, no color correction, no sharpening, nada. It has not been exposed to the right, it is just for comparing how skin tones and dynamic range compare with your footage. 

 

22 minutes ago, Orangenz said:

The phrase "whatever works for you", especially in the repeated usage, really comes across as condescending towards the mod. With it removed your post is much more readable! I do appreciate that you've added a video in support of your workflow. I suggest your discussion of ire clipping levels move to another thread, new if you like, as this is distracting from the good work of BTM_Pix. 

I don't want to come across as though ETTR is dogma, use it when you feel like it, but folks should try it for themselves for sure, don't listen to those who say the highlight rolloff is so awful, you need to save the highlights, blah blah blah. Those who always shoot with the histogram to the left or who aim for 'correct' exposure in camera will be surprised to find just how much more detail there is in those highlights. Naturally, in post, you're going to want to pull  the highlights and midtones down a bit. There's a ton of information there. Don't take my word for it - the 'overexposed' files even take up more GB than underexposed clips, that's color information. I will be posting a comparison between the clip above, exposed 'correctly' and the same lighting shot ETTR very soon. It goes without saying that if you're shooting at high ISOs, don't bother with ETTR. It's most effective at base ISO. Finally, if we're talking about using Cinelike D photo style, I'd rather see footage straight out of the camera, not heavily graded clips. I'd also like to see a screen grab of the waveform monitor showing how the clip has been exposed to begin with. I will be sharing that with everyone shortly. 

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20 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

Whatever works for you. I tested 90,100 & 105 ire and colors shift as soon as the exposure goes above 90. Again whatever works for you, I see the difference in my work as clear as day and will not shoot over 90 ire.

 

Sorry KRE, but what I'm seeing here are crushed blacks and blown out highlights, not the extended dynamic range that I'm getting at all by using CineLike D. Perhaps I need to calibrate my monitor.

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