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GH5 & compressed 10 bits - Any gain ?


OliKMIA
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10 minutes ago, deezid said:

Again this guy, lol

Look at the slashcam tests, at least they now what they're doing...
There's a huge advantage when using v-log. It's almost as good as using an external recorder, better than using ProRes LT at least.

AhAh, yes, probably another "youtube expert". The other video in my previous post if from slashcam actually. By the way, I can't like anymore post today. Andrew said "enough love for today" ;) 

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I think 80-90% of GH5 users will have little to no benefit using 10bit as opposed to 8bit. It's that 20% that will make it work. I have been very critical of the videos I have seen from the GH5 but I am really hoping the 400mbps all-i will change my opinion. I think 10bit, cinema 4K in CineLikeD downscaled to 2K could be something special. Of course, I am mostly interested in the 10bit, high bitrate 1080p in 24/60p. 

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Just now, mercer said:

I think 80-90% of GH5 users will have little to no benefit using 10bit as opposed to 8bit. It's that 20% that will make it work. I have been very critical of the videos I have seen from the GH5 but I am really hoping the 400mbps all-i will change my opinion. I think 10bit, cinema 4K in CineLikeD downscaled to 2K could be something special. Of course, I am mostly interested in the 10bit, high bitrate 1080p in 24/60p. 

The only problem the codec actually has is interoperability. ProRes 422 HQ will only show advantages in large motion or lots of fine moving detail like snow, small leaves in the wind etc... But the 10 bit advantage clearly works already.

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4 minutes ago, deezid said:

The only problem the codec actually has is interoperability. ProRes 422 HQ will only show advantages in large motion or lots of fine moving detail like snow, small leaves in the wind etc... But the 10 bit advantage clearly works already.

Yes, it seems to definitely help with banding and artifacts and it's a v-log benefit all users can obtain, but isn't the real draw of 10bit for the post color work?

It's those benefits I don't see a lot of people gaining too much from. Sure just the added color information will help on a basic level in post, with tonality and color separation, but grading 10bit footage takes a little more craft and I doubt most people will take the time to hone their skills to realize the full benefit of 10bit vs 8bit... especially with v-log. And for those people 10bit CineLikeD might be the better choice. For the ones that are already good colorists and those willing to take the time to become better at it, sure 10bit v-log is great.

Well, I guess 10bit is great either way, how could it not be? Wolfcrow knows his stuff, so even if we can't realize the true benefit of 10bit with the compression occurring, there are still basic advantages that are much easily obtained because of it...

Now I'm just debating myself...?

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7 hours ago, mercer said:

Well, I guess 10bit is great either way, how could it not be? Wolfcrow knows his stuff, so even if we can't realize the true benefit of 10bit with the compression occurring, there are still basic advantages that are much easily obtained because of it...

Now I'm just debating myself...?

Sorry if I'm not recognising sarcasm here or not, but Wolfcrow clearly doesn't know stuff at all. He essentially just made stuff up. His testing is on the level of shooting a crinkly sheet in the dark and some smooth talking rubbish over the top. And some of his most vocal proponents on youtube are, strangely enough, 0 video/ 0 subscriber accounts but with massive playlists. This complaint about compression limiting the quality is nuts when you can intercut with red without any difference showing and doesn't show an understanding of the codec itself. The MLessons comparison with 6500 video is also enough. 

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11 minutes ago, Orangenz said:

Sorry if I'm not recognising sarcasm here or not, but Wolfcrow clearly doesn't know stuff at all. He essentially just made stuff up. His testing is on the level of shooting a crinkly sheet in the dark and some smooth talking rubbish over the top. And some of his most vocal proponents on youtube are, strangely enough, 0 video/ 0 subscriber accounts but with massive playlists. This complaint about compression limiting the quality is nuts when you can intercut with red without any difference showing and doesn't show an understanding of the codec itself. The MLessons comparison with 6500 video is also enough. 

Countless people used the same math to argue against the benefit of high bitrate all-i on the GH4 and GH3 before it... why is that math no longer valid?

And just because Wolfcrow is not supporting the narrative you want to believe doesn't negate the dozens of tutorials and contributions the man has given the video community over the years. 

However, on another note, I do find it humorous that so many people are commending Panasonic for giving us high bitrate all-i 4K, but when Canon did it, they were condemned for the huge files. 

But honestly, in the end it really doesn't matter what I or Wolfcrow or Max Yuryev or anyone else says about the GH5, if you're happy with your purchase and your results then that is all that matters. There is no doubt the GH5 is capable of helping to create great videos. It is a groundbreaking tool and probably the biggest gift to indie filmmaking since the 5D2, t2i and GH1/2. 

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51 minutes ago, mercer said:

However, on another note, I do find it humorous that so many people are commending Panasonic for giving us high bitrate all-i 4K, but when Canon did it, they were condemned for the huge files.

Panasonic is apparently only going to give us easier files to edit with the 400mbps All-I. I'm not sure that it will bring much on the IQ department (to be tested). It was the same with the 100mbps vs 200mbps All-I on the GH4 in 1080.

However Canon gave us a very old inefficient codec  on the 1Dx2 and 5D4 for the sake of segmenting its products. There is no reasons of having such a 90s crap codec on a 2016 camera. This is just a bad joke from Canon. I was waiting for the 5D4 before making any new investment. Now I bought a GH5 for video and kept my 6D/5D3 for photo. I will never understand Canon's logic...

 

51 minutes ago, mercer said:

But honestly, in the end it really doesn't matter what I or Wolfcrow or Max Yuryev or anyone else says about the GH5, if you're happy with your purchase and your results then that is all that matters. There is no doubt the GH5 is capable of helping to create great videos.

Yes, 100% happy with the GH5. I'm just curious about this 10 bits thing.

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42 minutes ago, mercer said:

Countless people used the same math to argue against the benefit of high bitrate all-i on the GH4 and GH3 before it... why is that math no longer valid?

And just because Wolfcrow is not supporting the narrative you want to believe doesn't negate the dozens of tutorials and contributions the man has given the video community over the years. 

If you think everything is just an opinion then don't bother making one yourself. If you say that I'm wrong then give evidence to counter my evidence. I'm interested in truth and WC plainly ignores it and he didn't use math. People can have opinions but they need to be based on facts and a good experimental process that accurately describes and tests reality. "He has posted other stuff" is not an argument. 

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1 minute ago, OliKMIA said:

Panasonic is apparently only going to give us easier files to edit witht the 400mbps All-I. I'm not sure that it will bring much on the IQ department (to be tested). It was the same with the 100mbps vs 200mbps All-I on the GH4 in 1080.

Now Canon on the 1Dx2 and 5D4 gives us a very old inefficient codec for the sake of segmenting its products. There is no reasons of having such a 90s crap on a 2016 camera. This is just a bad joke from Canon. I was waiting for the 5D4 before making any new investment. Now I bought a GH5 for video keep my 6D/5D3 for photo. I will never understand Canon's logic...

 

Yes, 100% happy with the GH5. I'm just curious about this 10 bits thing.

Honestly, I am not versed in the intricacies of compression and I am totally out of my depth here, but mjpeg may be inefficient but it still is a solid codec that edits easily with good motion cadence.

I am curious about the 8bit vs. 10bit argument as well and I am eager to see the high bitrate firmware update... as I said earlier, I think it could be epic. We will see. 

3 minutes ago, Orangenz said:

If you think everything is just an opinion then don't bother making one yourself. If you say that I'm wrong then give evidence to counter my evidence. I'm interested in truth and WC plainly ignores it and he didn't use math. People can have opinions but they need to be based on facts and a good experimental process that accurately describes and tests reality. "He has posted other stuff" is not an argument. 

The whole first half of the video went over the calculations in graphic detail. Now maybe that is fuzzy math, as I said, I am no expert in compression, but that math seems awfully similar to the math used to negate the benefit of high bitrate all-i in the GH4 and GH3 before it and it was treated as gospel if I recall.

But also, let's be honest here... the GH5 is not as good as a Red or an Alexa... it is merely the best sub $2000 camera ever created and I am sure there will be AMAZING work produced with it... that should be enough. 

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3 minutes ago, mercer said:

Honestly, I am not versed in the intricacies of compression and I am totally out of my depth here, but mjpeg may be inefficient but it still is a solid codec that edits easily with good motion cadence.

I am curious about the 8bit vs. 10bit argument as well and I am eager to see the high bitrate firmware update... as I said earlier, I think it could be epic. We will see. 

Better motion cadence will be relevant to the intraframe codec. 

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7 minutes ago, Orangenz said:

Better motion cadence will be relevant to the intraframe codec. 

Definitely, that's one of the reasons I'm excited to see it come out. I think there's enough room for a 5D4 and a GH5 in today's market and both are great tools for the right job. 

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3 hours ago, mercer said:

The whole first half of the video went over the calculations in graphic detail. Now maybe that is fuzzy math, as I said, I am no expert in compression, but that math seems awfully similar to the math used to negate the benefit of high bitrate all-i in the GH4 and GH3 before it and it was treated as gospel if I recall.

But also, let's be honest here... the GH5 is not as good as a Red or an Alexa... it is merely the best sub $2000 camera ever created and I am sure there will be AMAZING work produced with it... that should be enough. 

First half of what video? I made extensive comments on a video where he tried to show simple colour banding in a scene with no simple colours. So again, vlog 8bit = bad (banding, magenta blobs), vlog 10bit = good (beautiful). If you get banding and other problems with your 8 bit footage then 10bit can fix it. If you don't get banding and other problems with your 8 bit scene then how is 10 bit going to fix it? Are you working without vlog atm? 

Let's be honest here, in some ways the GH5 is as good as a RED. Basic IQ is one. This isn't an iphone we're talking about here. DR, ease of codec use (a standard since forever), intraframe - that's why people spend the big bucks.

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4 hours ago, OliKMIA said:

Panasonic is apparently only going to give us easier files to edit with the 400mbps All-I. I'm not sure that it will bring much on the IQ department (to be tested). It was the same with the 100mbps vs 200mbps All-I on the GH4 in 1080.

However Canon gave us a very old inefficient codec  on the 1Dx2 and 5D4 for the sake of segmenting its products. There is no reasons of having such a 90s crap codec on a 2016 camera. This is just a bad joke from Canon. I was waiting for the 5D4 before making any new investment. Now I bought a GH5 for video and kept my 6D/5D3 for photo. I will never understand Canon's logic...

Exactly. Modern codec. Still 100mbps less than Canon. But for me most importantly: you have a choice to go about the way you want to squeeze that lemon. ;)

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6 hours ago, Orangenz said:

First half of what video? I made extensive comments on a video where he tried to show simple colour banding in a scene with no simple colours. So again, vlog 8bit = bad (banding, magenta blobs), vlog 10bit = good (beautiful). If you get banding and other problems with your 8 bit footage then 10bit can fix it. If you don't get banding and other problems with your 8 bit scene then how is 10 bit going to fix it? Are you working without vlog atm? 

Let's be honest here, in some ways the GH5 is as good as a RED. Basic IQ is one. This isn't an iphone we're talking about here. DR, ease of codec use (a standard since forever), intraframe - that's why people spend the big bucks.

This is the first video that OliKMIA posted by Wolfcrow in this thread and the video I have been referencing.

As far as curing the banding and magenta blobs, yes obviously 10bit fixes that... we've known this since VLog was released for the GH4. The question is... is the bitrate actually high enough to yield all the benefits 10bit is supposed to provide?

10bit 4:22 video wasn't designed to merely fix banding and magenta blobs. But maybe that's the only reason Panasonic included it internally with the GH5.

But yes... compared to a Red... the GH5 is an iPhone. 

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12 hours ago, mercer said:

But also, let's be honest here... the GH5 is not as good as a Red or an Alexa... it is merely the best sub $2000 camera ever created and I am sure there will be AMAZING work produced with it... that should be enough. 

These guys also do a direct comparison video between a RED and GH5....watching this will take you to that link....thought you may enjoy this!

 

2 hours ago, mercer said:

But yes... compared to a Red... the GH5 is an iPhone. 

Yes!!!!definitely the right video for you!!!!???

 

and another iphone red comparison!

 

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47 minutes ago, Fritz Pierre said:

These guys also do a direct comparison video between a RED and GH5....watching this will take you to that link....thought you may enjoy this!

 

Yes!!!!definitely the right video for you!!!!???

 

and another iphone red comparison!

 

Again, under the right circumstances, specifically a good shooter and a great colorist, the GH5 is awesome.

But those videos did nothing to prove to me it's as good as a Red.

In fact, I thought the Red was staggeringly better... specifically in the shot that showed the cloudy background. The color separation and depth in the Red shot blew the GH5 away.

With that being said, I'm sure the GH5 is a more enjoyable shooting experience, so if you want to put that into the equation (I wouldn't) then yeah... the GH5 is better than the Alexa too. 

Anyway, I am going to politely bow out of this conversation because it is starting to go somewhere mythical. 

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@mercer...just sent to you as tongue in cheeck and for your enjoyment....I don't even have my GH5 yet....anyway, like you I also take almost everything on the internet with a grain of salt and that especially applies to cameras...what other people think of a camera is largely irrelevant to me (I don't intend to sound unkind here)...I would never get anything done if it was....

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