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Andrew Reid

Canon C700 at IBC 2016 but no 1D C Mark II. Have they killed it off?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras

There is a market for the C700 (and F55, RED and Varicam)... Namely the streaming services that demand 4K and will only accept Alexa shot footage in special circumstances.

If the image out of the C700 surpasses that of the F55, RED Weapon and Varicam, then it could do very well in that particular area and start to build traction on bigger and bigger shoots.

As for the size, I don't think it is an issue on a major drama or film set. Rigs get huge, even if it is a RED. Any word if the Odyssey 7Q gets a raw signal from the C700? Could help with ergonomics.

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When they announced the C500 with the 1DC in April 2012, the existing 1DX was not marketed as a video camera. The 1DX II is very different and suggests that they want to sell as many as those 4K machines to P. Bloom and his "cats" before coming out with a new C camera. Now whether it's going to be a 1DC II or a C200 is not so clear. What is clear is that the C line is going to have a huge gap between the C100 II ($4K) and the C300 II ($12K) and I'm sure they are eventually going to fill it with a new release perhaps in 2017 or 2018. That is all pending on Canon discontinuing the 1DC ($5K), the C300 ($7K), and the C500 ($7K). So far, they continue to sell all those at retail and I don't see Canon moving quickly to fill in that price bracket. They are conservative and move like snails.

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The clips shot with this camera look nice though. The Canon cinema lens also provides nice bokeh. i love the image texture something different than the Alexa or Red image we have become accustomed in big productions. Need to see more clips shots with this camera to judge its potential though.  https://vimeo.com/canonpro  

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Andrew wrote: "The Sony A7S II is the only game in town, which in many ways is a tough game to play as you end up spending more time colour correcting in Resolve than actually shooting!""

I'm done with that game.

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2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

There is a market for the C700 (and F55, RED and Varicam)... Namely the streaming services that demand 4K and will only accept Alexa shot footage in special circumstances.

If the image out of the C700 surpasses that of the F55, RED Weapon and Varicam, then it could do very well in that particular area and start to build traction on bigger and bigger shoots.

As for the size, I don't think it is an issue on a major drama or film set. Rigs get huge, even if it is a RED. Any word if the Odyssey 7Q gets a raw signal from the C700? Could help with ergonomics.

That's a very big if. It would have to be significantly better than those cameras and that's a tough ask

And camera rigs are getting smaller - people want to be able to throw something on their shoulder, and a gimbal and a drone.

This ain't looking like an easily handhold able camera. Even the Alexa is more ergonomic than that brick looking thing.

But then, I never did like the ergonomics of the C300 either

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20 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

That's a very big if. It would have to be significantly better than those cameras and that's a tough ask

It really doesn't have to be significantly better.... Just fit the taste of the DP or whoever else is making the decision on which camera to rent/use on a high end production.

Skintone could play a big part in that decision.

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The C700 is a killer camera! Skintones as good or better than ARRI (depends on taste; can match the cameras easily in any case), competitive DR (ARRI still probably best), builtin NDs, efficient high-quality H.264 (same or similar to C300 II), ProRes if desired, 60p 4K (good enough for us right now; could always rent an ARRI/Red/Sony for the occasional 4K super slomo (120-200fps etc.)), perhaps the best low-light pro camera performance, and the big one: usable pro-level AF via PDAF! ARRI, Red, Sony, and Panasonic don't have anything like it for their pro cameras. Another possible big feature once we can see test results: a global shutter option (ARRI's RS is very low and Sony has a GS option for the F55).

Regarding the A7S II- while I can match it close to Canon in post in terms of color, it takes time and effort and in the end the full frame 'advantage' isn't really worth the effort for most shots. For low light shallow DOF, and very low light shots, the A7S II is a useful tool, however it never looks as good as Canon (or ARRI) when there's basic control over lighting. For moving shots, RS on the A7S II is challenging. AF on the A7S II is only barely usable for relatively static shots (A7R II is much better). If Sony can add A7R II or better AF to the A7S III, with less RS, improved IS, and better skintones (have an ARRI compatible setting as Canon does now), that will be a great camera.

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3 hours ago, Leica50mm said:

I wouldn't mock it too much. Because it might just be killer images wise. Just saying.

Sales tax alone on this thing is out of my budget so it is irrelevant to me whether it is the world's perfect camera or world's perfect paperweight.  I have to agree though.  Let's see the output before completely writing it off.

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Canon said in several interviews that the 1DX Mk2 was a replacement for both the 1DX and 1DC. When I pointed this out months ago many hear countered, saying the Canon repsaid that said this did not know what they were talking about. All I can say is you might be waiting a long time for a camera that may never materialize. The 1DX MK2 is far from perfect. But in 4k mode it can produce some really nice images. My hope is that Canon would fix the 1080p and give us log. I can see no excuse not to. 

Btw: I opened a ticket with Canon on the 1080p. No reason it should look like standard definition.

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1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Canon said in several interviews that the 1DX Mk2 was a replacement for both the 1DX and 1DC. When I pointed this out months ago many hear countered, saying the Canon repsaid that said this did not know what they were talking about. All I can say is you might be waiting a long time for a camera that may never materialize. The 1DX MK2 is far from perfect. But in 4k mode it can produce some really nice images. My hope is that Canon would fix the 1080p and give us log. I can see no excuse not to. 

Btw: I opened a ticket with Canon on the 1080p. No reason it should look like standard definition.

1DX II is clearly not a broadcast camera, it does not have to comply to industry quality standard (lines of resolution, colour sampling, bitdepth etc. in 1080p). Canon can do whatever they want to keep the cost down and to keep the camera cool and reasonable battery life.

Plus, the 4K mode downscaled to HD is likely going to be approved by EBU for HD Tier 1 use, 1DC and XC10 were approved a long time ago, and as far as I know remain the only DSLRs capable for broadcast use.

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6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Skintone could play a big part in that decision.

Skin tone? You mean some people like the almost fake tan skin tone of the Canon gear?

The Varicam has the most accurate skin tone capture out of any of the cameras, and I don't know how you could possibly say that Canon's skin tone will be better than the Alexa...?

To be honest, I think the only people who really like Canon colour that much are those that have only ever used Canon, and don't really know any different.

3 hours ago, jcs said:

The C700 is a killer camera!

As I said elsewhere, the VaricamLT offers almost everything that this offers, in a smaller, light, single-operator type body, yet designed to be operated with a full crew as well. It also offers Dual ISO, and arguably some of the most accurate colour reproduction on the market.

And it's about half the price of the C700

And it's failing to gain real traction at the moment.

The C700 is not a single operator camera, really, and yet the single-operator function of DPAF is their major selling point.

DPAF is about the only feature you can't get elsewhere at the moment. So you're banking a lot on people going for it simply because it's Canon, but I think the issue is that most people at that level go for image rather than brand name, really.

So it better have one hell of an image...

 

At $15k this thing starts to become competitive. I wouldn't be surprised if you saw this eventually drop to there, and the C300II drop in price slightly to make room for it.

when you're looking at this vs Varicam vs F5, that starts to become a more interesting proposition. But this vs RED Weapon vs Arri Mini vs Amira vs F55 vs Varicam is not a very strong position for this camera to be.

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My Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera has in-camera raw recording, and it's full price is only $995 (but which I got on that $495 special, woot!). I look at these cameras that require multi-thousand dollar add-ons to record 4k raw and shake my head. Sorry, but the tech to record 4k raw is not that strenuous anymore. Even a little UFS microSD-size card can handle that bandwidth.

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35 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

Skin tone? You mean some people like the almost fake tan skin tone of the Canon gear?

That's right, skin tone. When I show models and actors shots from Canon vs. for example Sony or Panasonic, they almost always prefer Canon for skin tone (stills and video). Isn't Canon the number one stills camera in the world? Aren't there a lot more people shooting stills on Canon than people are shooting video with ARRI? Doesn't Canon also make scanners and printers and lenses too? While my favorite video cameras are from ARRI (the same as Hollywood), I have to concede that Canon knows more about color than anyone else, and it's backed up by their sales. That's the only way they're getting away with releasing cameras that don't seem to have competing features, yet they still outsell the competition. The reason must be color, or is it something else?

PDAF on a camera with similar features and color to ARRI is very compelling, that's why Canon is pricing it high. If it doesn't sell, they'll reduce the price. The C300 II is sold out until at least the end of the month on B&H- the price is now competitive.

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Surely, there must be demand for this camera somewhere in the market? Why would Canon even bother making it? 

That said, it seems overlarge and not very 2016 (more 2013). 

The Sony FS700 is four years old and can output 4k120fps RAW in a much smaller package. 

The Kinefinity Terra can do 5k60fps RAW in a form factor the size of your hand, and cost less than $6000. 

The VaricamLT is far more affordable and compact. 

What exactly is Canons strategy here? Clearly it looks like a rental speciality for high end production - but with Arri and RED still innovating, it's a tough one. 

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I'm so far done with Canon. Have been for years. Y'all have fun still giving a crap because I sure don't. I've gotta go to work every day with my gear, and as long as you know your gear, you can do good work. Is it nice to have all these features? Sure. But at what price? As long as you know your core camera functions and how they influence exposure/motion/color/texture/etc, most modern cameras will do fine. 

Alas near as I can tell, there are two truly innovative features out in the last few years, both related to single-op use:

DPAF: for all your non-hunting autofocus needs

Electronic Variable ND: Smart Transition Lenses For Your Camera (tm)

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Ask the guys from Zacuto and they'll tell you that the C700 has the perfect form factor. It might look a little "ugly" but it is going to balance perfectly on the shoulder.

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