BrorSvensson Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Removing the saturation in camera is one of the things which i've never really questioned or understood why you should do it until recently. What is the reason behind doing this? Wouldn't adding saturation in post vs in camera add more banding and similar? I understand for raw and 10 bit 422 cameras when you have a lot of leeway and are using lü†s, but on an 8bit 420 avdhd image i would only assume that it really isn't that good of an idea. Would love to hear the reasonings behind doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted May 13, 2016 Super Members Share Posted May 13, 2016 Personally I have stopped doing that. I leave the contrast alone as well. Gives me better results than "fake log". kidzrevil, Shield3, Xavier Plagaro Mussard and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRenaissanceMan Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 To keep color channels from clipping. You don't want to lower it all the way; 1 or 2 points will do. SR and kidzrevil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrorSvensson Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 12 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said: To keep color channels from clipping. You don't want to lower it all the way; 1 or 2 points will do. Do you mind explaining to me what you mean with "clipping color channel"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I had to do it with the nx500 to level out unbalanced color. I notice it with the G7 as well but not as much. At default, the red blue and green were off. It took a few ticks down to get the colors even. BrorSvensson and kidzrevil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRenaissanceMan Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I'm no expert, but I'll do my best. As I understand it, a luma (brightness) signal is an average/combination of the R, G, and B channels. While the overall brightness (luma) in one area of the frame may not be clipping on the histogram, one of the individual color channels may already have clipped, which causes lost information and strange color artifacts. If anyone who understands this better than me cares to chime in with clarifications, please do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrorSvensson Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Just now, TheRenaissanceMan said: I'm no expert, but I'll do my best. As I understand it, a luma (brightness) signal is an average/combination of the R, G, and B channels. While the overall brightness (luma) in one area of the frame may not be clipping on the histogram, one of the individual color channels may already have clipped, which causes lost information and strange color artifacts. That makes sense, thanks you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 It's absolutely essential to me to remove saturation whilst shooting to reduce chroma clipping. Especially Red channels. I did tests and you can add as much saturation in post as you can but you can't lower the saturation if the channels were clipped. So I reduce saturation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrorSvensson Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 11 minutes ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said: It's absolutely essential to me to remove saturation whilst shooting to reduce chroma clipping. Especially Red channels. I did tests and you can add as much saturation in post as you can but you can't lower the saturation if the channels were clipped. So I reduce saturation. in what scenarios do you find red clipping to occur most frequently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRenaissanceMan Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I've experienced red channel clipping a lot in Canon footage for some reason. I guess their sensors just really love red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I'm no technician but do have experience. red goes earlier on Canon, Blue goes out horribly on Sony... (Try a blue LED) And guess what, those are the tones each is known for. I'm not sure which part of the analogue or digital pipeline is responsible for this, but do know it's what happens. A bit of a WB tweak or a saturation drop can help. On Canon the WideDR profile is nice. Sony I don't know as I sold mine. Because it all looked blue. BrorSvensson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 2 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said: To keep color channels from clipping. You don't want to lower it all the way; 1 or 2 points will do. Exactly. As long as you lower it enough where the color looks realistic and not oversaturated like the TV's on a best buy display you're good. Point is to keep color channels from clipping and also exaggerating chrominance noise like many cameras tend to do @BrorSvensson oh & like @Mattias Burling said, leave the contrast alone ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Zou Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Skin tones under orange lighting. Too much red! kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRenaissanceMan Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 1 hour ago, kidzrevil said: Exactly. As long as you lower it enough where the color looks realistic and not oversaturated like the TV's on a best buy display you're good. Point is to keep color channels from clipping and also exaggerating chrominance noise like many cameras tend to do @BrorSvensson oh & like @Mattias Burling said, leave the contrast alone ! Forgot about chroma noise. Another great reason to dial down sat a couple points. Seconded on not touching contrast. Maybe it worked on Canon cameras, but on a Panasonic/Sony especially, it just causes a bevy of problems with no real benefits. kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 I think a little lowering of contrast with Panasonic is fine. In fact, I think it really depends on the lens. If you're using a low contrast lens, then -2 is a good contrast level. If you're using a modern lens, then all the way down does work ok. Stu Mascwitz still dialed down his contrast, all the way, with his brief testing of the GH4. Shane Hurlbut found -2 to be the best contrast setting. The Leeming LUT is based on -5 contrast. Martin Wallgren with the GX85 used the Natural Profile with everything dialed all the way down. They all were getting really good images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 with the gh4 I got away with lower contrast BUT I used the shadow and highlights feature to create an s-curve. I think the contrast dial on these cameras just destroy midtones if you go too far. It's like they inverse the s curve at the expense of midtone accuracy so you end up with plastic looking skin and weird saturation. This is DEFINITELY the case in the nx1. I pretty much leave my saturation alone and jack up the master pedestal to get raised shadows and keep my midtones looking nice. its better on compression as well @mercer my gh4 natural settings were -5 sharpness, -4 contrast, -1 saturation, -5 nr -2 shadows and +1 highlights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 @kidzrevil IDK I think every shooter exposes slightly different and is looking for a different aesthetic. You have a very distinct visual style, so the combination between the way you expose and your profile settings need to be a specific recipe. You're getting really good results with the hack, but to be honest, your footage is the only example of the hack that I have seen that has benefitted by it. Ricardo underexposes, doesn't use the hack and he produces some of the best, cleanest images I've seen from the NX1. You say to use the master pedestal and a curve with the gh4 and that obviously worked for you because your footage is some of my favorite footage from the gh4(I still think you should go back to it) but Noam Kroll says to never use those settings and he has some of the best videos I've ever seen shot with it... Different roads to the same destination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldolega Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 The newest version of the Leeming GH4 LUT is based on setting more contrast than the earlier versions... 0 I believe, or maybe -1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 @mercer your definitely right, "different roads to the same destination". We are all trying to come up with settings to optimize our workflow but you gotta admit certain cameras respond to adjustments like the master pedestal differently. I started noticing I have to jack my MP to +15 to prevent it from hard clipping shadow detail. That plus negative saturation and high bitrate hack allows me to squeeze a lot of detail into the 11 stop DR especially when underexposing. I have a complete different method if I am shooting with an a7s (thinking about getting the a7sii for the full frame 4k btw) or a GH4 etc. etc. one rule has been universal though : lower your saturation enough to prevent color channel clipping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Well, in theory, decreasing the saturation would make the colors easier to adjust, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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