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Which would you rather have? 1DC/5Dmkiii/A7sii/Other


Mattias Burling
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5 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

You get a fully kitted Scarlet for $4000.

My R1 was $3100 with 2 PL mounts, 1 Nikon mount, 2 base plates, 2 battery plates, 2 drives, 4 CF cards, Full shoulder rig, Monitor, EVF and lots more.

And they go even cheaper now.

Love to know where you would get a Scarlet for $4k... Why did you go R1 when you could get a Scarlet for $900 more???

5 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Google is your friend.

Sorry, not locally - we're not all in the same place ;) 

As I said - there's no labs here anymore. They closed. There's two 'underground' labs who do very short runs of 16mm or 8mm in the whole country, and as many, or fewer, telecine suites.

It's sad - but our entire industry moved away from film very quickly. It's very difficult to get short ends, especially of 35mm. I was in film school when this happened. One semester we were shooting film happily, having it processed and telecine'd locally. The next semester, we had to send our film to Fotokem in the US to get processed, and it was easier for them to do the telecine as well.

Film died quickly all over the world. It died even quicker here. I wish film would have enjoyed a slower death. I wish it was still just as viable a shooting option as digital. But alas, locally at least, it's not.

It can be done if you really want to, but there are few production companies who would allow you (only the indie ones).

All of our bid budget TVCs were shot on film until the Alexa happened and then none were.

1 hour ago, cpc said:

ProRes4444 is significantly larger than Red raw 3:1 for the same resolution and framerate.

In fact, ProRes4444 is larger than pretty much any lossy compressed raw codec out there, and this includes Red raw, BM lossy CinemaDNG raw, Cineform raw, etc.

Don't know about significantly larger if you compare same resolution and framerate. I get about 23 minutes on an Alexa in 2k at ProRes 444, you can get around 30ish minutes at 2k 3:1 redraw.

Not to mention that your best IQ on a RED is at 5k-6k (assuming Epic) or 4k-5k (assuming Scarlet). 2k tends to be softer, somewhat noisier, and your sensor is cropped.

So, in practical terms - i.e. shooting 4k-6k (camera dependant) to get the best IQ - you're getting smaller file sizers and you're putting significantly less strain on your computer by shooting ProRes.

I know very little about Blackmagic CineDNG so can't comment on that one.

 

Anyway, this all digresses from the topic:

I think a BMPCC is pretty good for the price of it. Not very good in low-light, but considering how cheap the S16 lenses are these days, it's not a bad one. In the end, I went for the A7s as my 'small' hybrid stills/video over the BMPCC and GH4 (obviously, the BMPCC doesn't take photos). I like the larger sensor a lot more than the GH4.

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42 minutes ago, jax_rox said:

Love to know where you would get a Scarlet for $4k... Why did you go R1 when you could get a Scarlet for $900 more???

On reduser. Just check in every day and you will find one.

I like the R1 image more than the Scarlet and wanted the hfr.

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1 hour ago, jax_rox said:

Don't know about significantly larger if you compare same resolution and framerate. I get about 23 minutes on an Alexa in 2k at ProRes 444, you can get around 30ish minutes at 2k 3:1 redraw.

Not to mention that your best IQ on a RED is at 5k-6k (assuming Epic) or 4k-5k (assuming Scarlet). 2k tends to be softer, somewhat noisier, and your sensor is cropped.

So, in practical terms - i.e. shooting 4k-6k (camera dependant) to get the best IQ - you're getting smaller file sizers and you're putting significantly less strain on your computer by shooting ProRes.

I know very little about Blackmagic CineDNG so can't comment on that one.

Well, 30 minutes is almost 30% more than 23 minutes which is a significant difference when footage starts to add up. :)

It is certainly another story for oversampled video (i.e. 2K from 4K or bigger sensors), but for full sensor resolution shooting ProRes444 is usually a handicap in terms of size. With the push for 4K that's happening now more and more cameras are recording (near) full sensor resolution in ProRes without any real benefit other than no need for raw processing.

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On 3/22/2016 at 3:57 AM, hmcindie said:

But you have to get someone to use those multiple bodies. I have three bodies now and for my own free projects it's a drag to even get one person to operate them. And even when someone operates them I usually end up with bad b-roll.

Even if you're only just one shooter (yourself), having two bodies is handy so you can keep one balanced on the gimbal and another for your tripod/monopod/shoulder rig. 

And if you use a second shooter, you give him the easier and less creative shots to do. 

On 3/22/2016 at 1:41 AM, Mattias Burling said:

I agree, its just that imo the F3 is just as impractical. I want small or big. And if it's big, it can be big. The nr1 reason I never gotten an F3 is that I might as well lug an R1 or URSA.

Fair enough. Though to me F3 is in the "big sweet spot", big enough to get size "benefits": space for XLR inputs on the body / ND filter / "impress" people / not be a DSLR / extra weight to lend stability to handheld shots. Yet not so big I need to get an even *bigger* tripod (which is even more expensive) and would really kill my back at the end of a long day. 

I reckon that sweet spot ranges (which I agree is inherently subjective) from C100/FS5 at one extreme up to F3 at the other extreme. But a full size URSA or R1 pushes it out into something else qualitatively speaking and not just a quantitatively different size. 

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On 3/23/2016 at 4:30 PM, jax_rox said:

Of course - if we're only talking about look. There will always be other factors at play though - not the least of which is turnaround times, and also these days where  you get the thing developed and telecine'd. We went from having a number of labs in Australia, to none. If you shoot film you have to send it overseas to be processed. There are a couple of Arri scanners and telecines still around, but they're hard to find, and you need to factor that cost in to your post path. 

Hey hey, I didn't know you're an Australian! :-D I'm a Kiwi in Auckland. 
Wonder if there are any other F3 owners lurking around on this forum from this neck of the woods or if we are the only two?

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ProRes is much more than just 'good enough' though. Also, ProRes (as well as XAVC, which has it's own compromises) are significantly smaller files than even compressed RedRaw. Easier on your computer, just as gradeable etc. To be perfectly honest, I'm more likely to shoot ProRes4444 (which is almost kinda like raw anyway), but have no qualms or issues with bumping down to 422HQ.

Yup, ProRes HQ is more than fine for many purposes!

I even bumped down to ProRes LT! :-o I really didn't want to... but it was an ultra low budget feature and everything else had been shot with a C100's internal. And the poor director/producer couldn't handle anything bigger :-/

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And a used F3 is cheaper to boot. Cheapeast local RED One that's on the market is ~$4,500, and that's body only. I bought my F3 for $1500, and it came with a PL mount, Nikon mount and SxS-SD adapters. Practically ready to shoot given that I have some older Nikon primes lying around. Of course, I use my Shogun with it to get the 10-bit etc. but even the combined price is still less than a RED One (and I can still use my Shogun with any other camera).

Exactly, I got my F3 roughly half way through last year for NZ$1.8K (USD$1.2K for the overseas readers), while the cheapest RED One I've seen listed locally recently is a staggering NZ$14.5K!! (just under US$10k)

But even if I saw a RED One at a more reasonable price of US$3.5K ish listed locally, that is still *THREE TIMES* more than what I spent for my F3!

 

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F3 is nowhere near as big or heavy as either of those cameras. F3 is not all that much bigger than an FS700 and is really light. The only slight annoyance is needing to use a recorder to get full quality out of it, which adds a little bit of weight


Although, once I've fully rigged it up with handles, V mount, mic, rails, cheeseplate, mattebox, lens, and recorder....  then I'm pushing up to around about 13kg ish in total! :-o (or nearly 30lbs ish for you American types)

Partially the reason I'm thinking to switch away from a rails set up, and also switch back to BP-U batteries instead, so I've ordered in a few of those. We'll see how this new set up looks. 

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On 3/23/2016 at 6:07 PM, Mattias Burling said:

You get a fully kitted Scarlet for $4000.

Scarlet/Epic form factor is infinitely preferable over a RED One.

I would admit, if in another year the price dropped a little, and I got lucky enough to see a Scarlet MX locally for US$3K then I'd leap on it just simply so I can say "I own a RED"! haha

But if anybody ever wants lowlight shooting...  the Scarlet would stay in the office and the F3 would come out! :-D

On 3/23/2016 at 0:07 AM, Mattias Burling said:

On reduser. Just check in every day and you will find one.

I like the R1 image more than the Scarlet and wanted the hfr.

But they share the same MX sensor??

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2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yup, ProRes HQ is more than fine for many purposes!

I even bumped down to ProRes LT! :-o I really didn't want to... but it was an ultra low budget feature and everything else had been shot with a C100's internal. And the poor director/producer couldn't handle anything bigger :-/

 

Not really related, but do we have any cameras available shooting in Avid DNxHD ? As a windows user, it is way easier to work with DNxHD rather than Prores.

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Way to get off-topic ;)

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Wonder if there are any other F3 owners lurking around on this forum from this neck of the woods or if we are the only two?

They're certainly getting rarer, though there's still a few around. 

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Although, once I've fully rigged it up with handles, V mount, mic, rails, cheeseplate, mattebox, lens, and recorder....  then I'm pushing up to around about 13kg ish in total! :-o (or nearly 30lbs ish for you American types)

Partially the reason I'm thinking to switch away from a rails set up, and also switch back to BP-U batteries instead, so I've ordered in a few of those. We'll see how this new set up looks. 

The F3 body weights about the same as an Epic Dragon body (just better form factor!)

I'm used to a rigged up Alexa or similar weight, so to me the F3 is light, even rigged up. It's a touch over half the weight of an Amira, which is a light camera to me!

I do try and keep my F3 rigged light - though I have a top plate (purchased at stock clearance for $9 down from $250), the ET baseplate with shoulder pad, some handles, a lightweight FF, lightweight lenses, Shogun...

I've avoided the V-mount for now, but I'm considering it to even out the weight a little when using longer lenses, matte boxes, etc.

I'm currently trying to find a good(ish), affordable zoom for run 'n' gun shooting.

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3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Ohh, and the blackmagic video assist, so basically any camera with clean hdmi out.

Oooooooo indeed. I have to check reviews to evaluate the screen quality. Are those mini SDI connectors reliable enough though ?
The thing is, it costs more than half the price of my camera. A rig should be still higher on my priority list ...

Too many options, too few cash :s

EDIT : Just saw that the BM Video Assist doesn't record interlaced (no internal 3:2 pulldown), which my camera outputs (AF100) .... I'll have to go with a Atomos Samurai Blade (which also seems to record DNxHD BTW) which has proper SDI inputs but no HDMI (not that I need it though ...) and is around the same price. Thank you Mattias for having pushed me on the right train of thoughts :)

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10 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

They do but the look is very different.

BTW, I ended up buying that 1DC. Less than 25k clicks and it cost $600 less than current A7rii retail.

Great price... How do you like it? How would you compare the 4K from the 1DC to the 4K of the XC-10? Do you still have that camera?

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4 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

Where do you guys find 1DC for under 3K ? I see 5K on ebay used....

Not on ebay. I buy almost exclusivly on photo/video forums or classifieds. 

 

18 minutes ago, mercer said:

Great price... How do you like it? How would you compare the 4K from the 1DC to the 4K of the XC-10? Do you still have that camera?

Unfortunately not, had to off load almost everything when I jumped on the Red. Didn't have the cash at the time since it was christmas.

Its different. More depth to the color in the xc10, at least it feels that way. The 1DC feels more like a traditional Canon. But they are similar, mostly the sensor size that feels different.

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20 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Not on ebay. I buy almost exclusivly on photo/video forums or classifieds. 

 

Unfortunately not, had to off load almost everything when I jumped on the Red. Didn't have the cash at the time since it was christmas.

Its different. More depth to the color in the xc10, at least it feels that way. The 1DC feels more like a traditional Canon. But they are similar, mostly the sensor size that feels different.

Does the mjpeg have a thicker look? What lenses are you using with the 1DC?

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2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

No the xc10 has the thicker colors imo. 

Besides all the vintage glass I have a 24-105/4 L and the 35mm f2.0 IS.

Yes, but are you diggin' the 1DC image? How does it compared to all the other cameras you've run the gamut with? God like?

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