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Lets Discuss, where the GH3 Falls Short


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Panasonic is making Huge losses, right now (almost US$ 10 Million, and 2nd year in a row. Actually 2 years with similar losses, and 5 years of losses). :

[url="http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/panasonic-books-mammoth-925bn-loss/story-e6frea6u-1226507969975"]http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/panasonic-books-mammoth-925bn-loss/story-e6frea6u-1226507969975[/url]


It needs to turn around the company.

As good samaritans (or customer), lets discuss, where the GH3 falls short, and what it needs to address.

We could Exclude things like Global Shutter and other stuff, since, that's not possible, at this stage.

I would begin, by suggesting better handling of details, in low light (or very high contrast scenes), instead of that strange banding and those artifacts.

I find it curious, that the GH3 is not actually an improvement on the GH2, in firmware, but, most likely, only in hardware. At this rate, they could have just transferred the old GH2 sensor, board, wiring etc etc, along with the firmware, right into the GH3, done (or left it as it is) a few tweaks to the Firmware, and Voila !!!

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the gh3, based on what we have seen so far from preproduction models with firmware 0.5 is nothing short of a failure imo.

Not only have not upgraded but they have regressed from the gh2.

Regression:
- apparently less detail rendition
- mo more multi aspect sensor
- apparently from the user guide there is no more video extended tele mode
- introduces moire an aliasing

And all of this for more than twice the price of the gh2...

We can use caution and wait for the final production models but it is definitively not looking good at all.

What is sad is that if they simply kept the strong points of the gh2 without even improving on them. and we still got rid of the shooting stars artifact that is now gone on the gh3, with the weather sealing, headphone jack and battery grip and 72mbps all i mov files that it has now it would already have been a great camera.

But those small improvements were traded for a loss in image quality that simply does not make any sense.

The only logical justification I can find for this weak upgrade is that if, just like canon on the markIII that did not get the expected upgrade so that it didn't compete with the c100, they are practicing product segmentation and will announce a higer end video camera soon.

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Its a shame really Panasonic were the first with a large sensor video camera the AF101 All it needed was a few tweaks to make it as revolutionery as the EX1 I guess they only have themselves to blame in my opinion.

The GH3 is most definately an improvement with the ability to use a monitor in crop mode and HDMI 4.2.2 out. They are fantastic improvements to an already very filmic camera. Just a shame they decided to price to a level where S35 sensor camera that do the same thing are almost within reach. If they sold the GH3 at about £700 -800 that would be about right to hit the sweet spot for them.

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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1351760452' post='20769']
the gh3, based on what we have seen so far from preproduction models with firmware 0.5 is nothing short of a failure imo.

Not only have not upgraded but they have regressed from the gh2.

Regression:
- apparently less detail rendition
- mo more multi aspect sensor
- apparently from the user guide there is no more video extended tele mode
- introduces moire an aliasing

And all of this for more than twice the price of the gh2...

We can use caution and wait for the final production models but it is definitively not looking good at all.

What is sad is that if they simply kept the strong points of the gh2 without even improving on them. and we still got rid of the shooting stars artifact that is now gone on the gh3, with the weather sealing, headphone jack and battery grip and 72mbps all i mov files that it has now it would already have been a great camera.

But those small improvements were traded for a loss in image quality that simply does not make any sense.

The only logical justification I can find for this weak upgrade is that if, just like canon on the markIII that did not get the expected upgrade so that it didn't compete with the c100, they are practicing product segmentation and will announce a higer end video camera soon.
[/quote]

You mentioned the 'shooting star artefact' in your previous post, regarding the video you posted. Do you know any other videos on Vimeo, or even youtube, which show it. What exactly does it look like?

Maybe you're right about saving the better features, for the next (higher) segment. Especially considering, that, the AF100 didn't do as well , they were hoping.

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[quote name='sanveer' timestamp='1351761049' post='20771']
You mentioned the 'shooting star artefact' in your previous post, regarding the video you posted. Do you know any other videos on Vimeo, or even youtube, which show it. What exactly does it look like?
[/quote]

I call it the "shooting stars artifact" because it is rays of brighter color that travel from the top left to the bottom right part of the image, looks like shooting stars.

They are visible in dark parts of the image, mostly visible in very dark parts.
It is very visible when you push the image in post, if you want to see it download the dynamic range comparison I posted in my gh3 quick handheld comparison thread.

More subtle but clearly visible here (not my work):
[url="https://vimeo.com/47358813"]https://vimeo.com/47358813[/url]
At the end of the video on the wood behind the bea hive.
Watch in full screen you won't miss it.

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this is the video comparison where it is extremely visible because the image was pushed heavily in post.
On the right of the vid the gh3, as you will see it is now gone:

http://www.postprod.ch/clients/Eoshd/montage_2.zip

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Karim, thanks for posting the links. Its some strange noise pattern.

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Wow. Not once have I seen that kind of artifacts in my footage. Lucky me!

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Is it possible something else caused it rather than the camera?

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[quote name='charlie_orozco' timestamp='1351778257' post='20782']
Wow. Not once have I seen that kind of artifacts in my footage. Lucky me!
[/quote]

Did u ever shoot, in the dark? With a not-so-fast lens?

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Haven't had anything even close to the shooting stars on my unhacked GH2's either. And I shoot a lot of unlit interiors of old buildings and the like. A little color noise at 1600 ISO, but nothing like that for sure.

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I wondered if it was my camera that was faulty but then I saw it in others people footage like the vimeo link I posted.
Maybe you guys should try to pull the shadows all the way up and see if it's there?
or maybe it is specific to the flowmotion hack?

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Thus far, I'm unhappy, but I'm withholding judgment on the camera until a 100% full production model gets the review treatment.

If the reduced detail level, combined with the significant moire, remains, my depression will be complete.

And has Panasonic admitted to having/not-having focus peaking?

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[quote name='charlie_orozco' timestamp='1351778257' post='20782']
Wow. Not once have I seen that kind of artifacts in my footage. Lucky me!
[/quote]

Could you please upload footage, in High Contrast, and low light videos?

thanks

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Here's a couple of very dark, contrasty places. The first has some noise to the left in the beginning... it was shot with Nostalgic mode, the other is in Vibrant mode, which works much better for this kind of situation IMHO. Both shot unhacked at 1600 ISO and no Neat...

[url="https://vimeo.com/47927412"]http://vimeo.com/47927412[/url]

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It's great that you post a topic to stimulate a debate.

But in the article you have linked to the losses mentioned by Panasonic are $10 Billion not $10 Million.

Getting the GH3 "right" isnt going to save the day.

Like many others who visit this site I was so excited to see the release of the GH3 but it's all gone a bit flat now.

I hope the full production model sorts out some of the issues people have with the GH3 and it really is a great camera.

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[quote name='sanveer' timestamp='1351778748' post='20784']
Did u ever shoot, in the dark? With a not-so-fast lens?
[/quote]

Yes, I have. And I have pushed the footage. Never seen it.

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I always shoot in the top row ISO settings, never above 2500ISO. Could that have something to do with it?

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[quote name='sanveer' timestamp='1351797153' post='20807']
Could you please upload footage, in High Contrast, and low light videos?

thanks
[/quote]

This is what I have at hand. The shots of the guitar player and picking the guitar up and playing it with the skylight behind is an example. I had to lift the lows quite a bit in all of those shots.

EDIT: it's exactly the thumbnail shot that I'm talking about, and all those shot from the same angle.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ44i0Woa6E[/media]

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[quote name='charlie_orozco' timestamp='1351816027' post='20826']
This is what I have at hand. The shots of the guitar player and picking the guitar up and playing it with the skylight behind is an example. I had to lift the lows quite a bit in all of those shots.

EDIT: it's exactly the thumbnail shot that I'm talking about, and all those shot from the same angle.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ44i0Woa6E[/media]
[/quote]

There is Quite a bit of noise in your video (on the staircase, and the seats, etc etc). I just saw a few seconds of the start, and there was already a lotta noise (strange artefacts).


[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1351788409' post='20798']
I wondered if it was my camera that was faulty but then I saw it in others people footage like the vimeo link I posted.
Maybe you guys should try to pull the shadows all the way up and see if it's there?
or maybe it is specific to the flowmotion hack?
[/quote]

Naah, i don't think its got to do with the FlowMotion Hack. All settings, with very high contrast,and very low light scenes have it. I saw it in the 5D videos too. All cameras with 4-2-0 have it (maybe even with the 4-2-2 have it, though,it may be less noticeable).

Though, the noise on the GH2, IMHO,seems to vary,under different circumstances.

There are good ISO settings, and there is the ISO bug, and, I also suspect, that, in low light, certain shutter speeds also govern the level of noise.

Check this out:

[url="http://vimeo.com/18580410#at=0"]http://vimeo.com/18580410#at=0[/url]


Its not a big deal, I guess. Everything comes with its limitations. We just have to learn, to work around it.

Btw, i realised, that the GH3 has a strange update, on the continuous shooting rate/ high speed burst mode. Whereas, the GH2 shot 4MP pics, at 40 fps, for exactly 1 second, the GH3 does 4MP pics, at 20fps, for 2 seconds. Doesn't, then, the processor power, seem similar? ;)
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[quote name='sanveer' timestamp='1351843256' post='20852']

There is Quite a bit of noise in your video (on the staircase, and the seats, etc etc). I just saw a few seconds of the start, and there was already a lotta noise (strange artefacts).

[/quote]

Those "strange artifacts" were the shitty YouTube compression trying to intepret the grain I added. Big mistake on my part (it's the first time I added it in a whole video). I looks great uncompressed, but it looks quite bad on YouTube, didn't take that into account. Will upload a bit of the video in DNxHD so you can see what I'm talking about.

Anyways, those "shooting star" artifacts are nowhere to be seen. Did you continue to watch beyond those first few seconds?

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[quote name='charlie_orozco' timestamp='1351847083' post='20856']
Those "strange artifacts" were the shitty YouTube compression trying to intepret the grain I added. Big mistake on my part (it's the first time I added it in a whole video). I looks great uncompressed, but it looks quite bad on YouTube, didn't take that into account. Will upload a bit of the video in DNxHD so you can see what I'm talking about.

Anyways, those "shooting star" artifacts are nowhere to be seen. Did you continue to watch beyond those first few seconds?
[/quote]

hahaha ... i must confess, that, I didn't watch the video, maybe, beyond 15-20 seconds. I already found noise, and so,I stopped viewing :P

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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1351761912' post='20773']


I call it the "shooting stars artifact" because it is rays of brighter color that travel from the top left to the bottom right part of the image, looks like shooting stars.

They are visible in dark parts of the image, mostly visible in very dark parts.
It is very visible when you push the image in post, if you want to see it download the dynamic range comparison I posted in my gh3 quick handheld comparison thread.

More subtle but clearly visible here (not my work):
[url="https://vimeo.com/47358813"]https://vimeo.com/47358813[/url]
At the end of the video on the wood behind the bea hive.
Watch in full screen you won't miss it.
[/quote]

I don't know if anybody picked up on this, but there seem to be a couple of issues in Flowmotion like a weird rain looking like pattern in dark areas, and flickering issues. Digging for a link while you're on your phone is a p.i.t.a. so i'll just tell you to look up a guy named "Roman Legion Films" in Vimeo. He points out an issue in one of his videos with it.. Maybe it's the same thing you're seeing as it seems like a common issue now popping up.. I didn't really see it in mine.... But i didn't really look for it either. Another issue was a lowlight shot with my new voigtlander and my 5 year old. I did a slow push from her full body sitting up in her bed watching tv up to her face. I wanted "eerie" with just the tv light reflections. The wall behind her bed is big, empty, and white right now so it looks creepy as hell. Try as i may adjusting shutter, and frame rate, i could not fix the fact that the light reflection was flickering consistently like i was shooting in PAL land or something. So i ditched the shot and put her to bed, lol.

The thing is, I didn't check it on my computer. I know the Gh2's lcd is awful with gamma shift, refresh rate, & such.. So maybe someone can chime in if they've seen something similar. I know Flowmotion is great in almost all other aspects, but i'm back to Sedna. It's an All-i patch and that could've had something to do with it as well even though FM is only a 3gop patch.. Who knows..

Point is, others have seen the problems you're talking about. I thought Flowmotion was the last patch I'd ever need until these little issues. Now i'm fairly certain a high bitrate, all-i patch is about as good as the gh2 can get.. All of these matrix adjustments to simulate 4:4:4 characteristics on a 4:2:0 camera are really indiscernible to me.. I can't see a difference in any of them anymore. Sanity was awesome regarding noise in lowlight.. I didn't have any hardly.. Until i saw it only pushed 17mbs in the scene and thus, just smeared it out along with blocking in the highlights of all things.. Lol. Bad.
Sedna and CM night seem to be the best from what i've seen... But then again, they're 150+mbps all-i patches that require the 64/95 card or forget reliability.
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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1351760452' post='20769']
the gh3, based on what we have seen so far from preproduction models with firmware 0.5 is nothing short of a failure imo.

Not only have not upgraded but they have regressed from the gh2.

Regression:
- apparently less detail rendition
- mo more multi aspect sensor
- apparently from the user guide there is no more video extended tele mode
- introduces moire an aliasing

And all of this for more than twice the price of the gh2...

We can use caution and wait for the final production models but it is definitively not looking good at all.
[/quote]
According to Panasonic firmware 0.5 is representative for the final product.

EXTC is there, it doesn't work in 72mbit movie recording, only at lower bitrates.

Don't forget the GH3 isn't a video camera. I remember a quote from a Panasonic guy saying the GH3 is 50/50 photo/video, while the GH2 was more like 40/60. Watch the official [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m-Iwpc_qdg"]promo-video[/url] for the GH3. It starts with a landscape photographer, then Macro, then people, and then Cinema...

The stills quality is greatly improved over the GH2. I think Panasonic went for a Sony sensor (if they did make it in-house it'd probably still have mutli-aspect at least) to be able to keep up with the rest (OM-D, Sony NEX etc) in the stills market. And because of this they couldn't do the same magic as with the sensor in the GH2.

It is a hybrid camera, the big improvements are in the photography department. Yes, it sucks for us... it's not what we want, but the GH3 is a major improvement over the GH2 overall.

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It has 1080, 60p & a body that doesn't feel like a toy. The screen is much better. The processors are killer. From what i understand an important aspect in the video department that the Gh2 didn't have is an 8x8 matrix.. (Someone else can explain its significance, i just know it was a desirable trait in the gh2 they tried to emulate with a patch.) i don't know how "log" style you can get it to shoot, whether it is confirmed or not to have aliasing/moire issues as some videos have shown it while others have not.. Mainly the razor sharp sterile hand held 12-35x videos that keep popping up with what looks like everything shot on soccer mom mode. (Soccerball on the dial, lol.)
What the hell is the "high dynamic range" sensor doing differently here exactly... It doesn't look any different in terms of latitude & that was a huge, huge deal with the highlights and noise on the gh2..

Alas.. It will be hacked more than likely, and hopefully regardless of whether or not panasonic release another firmware addressing some of these concerns, Personal View does.. Just sucks that they may have to.

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